linn sondek tt

The latest LP12 Klimax is able to compete with tables that are very significantly higher in price. I think the problem is twofold...one) the table doesn't have the high tech look that some of the deep pocket a'philes want, and two) it has had so many variants that there is a tremendous amount of misinformation that continues to circle around it. 

@lowrider57  care to mention a table that is better for the same money as a full spec LP12 Klimax??

 @dsholl1 Funny how guys with Kuzma’s always say they beat the LP12 Radikal D...not in my books and not by a long shot. All of the Kuzmas I have heard sound inferior to a well set up Linn...Obviously YMMV.

@nkonor  I have a friend who has the Technics SL1200G. We have AB'ed it against my Linn...result, he is now trying to sell the Technics and buy into the entry level LP12 Magik! 
I happen to agree with you, the Triplanar arm is a superb arm, and one that I think is superior to the Ekos SE....Unfortunately, that is not the only part of this equation.The LP12 is a FAR FAR superior sounding platform to the Technics ( I actually way prefer it to the new Technics SL1000 as well). The LP12 Radikal is somewhat let down by the Ekos SE, but take a look at the arm I am using with the LP12 Radikal D, it kills the SE and all others on this table...Superb match up with my Kleos.

@nkonor. I noticed again that misinformation is prevalent with this table. Your post states you owned a Lingo...presumably the shoe box model. That model is miles away from the current model with a Radikal D. You then state you heard at Thomas’ place a full Radikal LP12..and that was great sounding, but not for $25k! Here’s the thing, you can get a Akurate model with Radikal D and a Ekos Se with a Kleos for about the same money as your Technics with Triplanar...IME, that rig will easily see off the Technics.

@tzh21y What gear are you listening to as ancillary...Bose? Because, what you state makes sense if you that's what is your experience. OTOH on a system that is resolving, then even those with tin ears are going to understand why the Linn is still so respected throughout the a'phile world! OTOH, perhaps it is best for you to keep on being deluded about the LP12 Radikal and enjoy your Kenwood...or VPI Scout;0)
Like I stated above, there is a tremendous amount of misinformation about the LP12 platform...this thread, and posts like yours, continue with that issue.
Well answers the OP's question, IMO.

@tzh21y So you heard the LP12 with an all Linn system and then came home and preferred your Scout! Really that is no big surprise to any Linn table adherent! While we think extremely highly of the table, the same cannot be said for the Linn ancillary gear. Personally, I have to agree that the Linn electronics and speakers are in no way competitive with numerous other pieces,at or below, their price point. Therefore, unfortunately you did not hear what a LP12 Radikal can actually bring to the system. I also know that most Linn dealers won’t actually accept this fact, but the a’phile community has known this for years.

Again, unfortunately you are spreading misinformation that is based on a faulty assumption. I can see on this forum and others that this is prevalent with the LP12...and again, answers the OP’s question.
Linn themselves do have some amount of blame with this, as they have a product that their dealers are typically NOT demoing in its best light....due to their primarily wanting to sell their Linn ancillary gear. 

Some people love the Bose sound. When it comes to tables, I don’t think that anyone is going to spend that kind of money on a high priced table, unless it delivers. YMMV

@syntax. We are supposed to believe that Linn sold thousands of their turntable, simply due to excellent marketing!... According to you..no one that bought the rig was able to hear well enough to determine that is was faulty and therefore they were deaf like a stone. Thousands of deaf folks that just couldn’t hear all of its faults...unlike you, I guess ;0)

Do you guys seriously believe that if the LP12 wasn’t a great sounding table that it would have garnered the success it has? 

Finally, we have a disclosure that one of the naysayers has never heard the table, but that doesn’t stop him from putting his two cents in...er,is that the definition of a troll!

Pity that the others who have never heard the table in a proper setting fail to acknowledge the same thing. Like i said before, plenty of misinformation attached to this product.

@tzh21y Are you another one of these guys who knows very well the sound of the LP12, but unfortunately has never heard one??

I suspect that is exactly the case here, otherwise you wouldn’t be posting what you did.
The Rega rp6 is very strident...as are most Rega’s?? How would you know if the Rega rp8 competes with the Radikal...if you have never heard either table...and certainly not in an ’AB’???
A Basis Debut is a great table, but now very long in the tooth. A friend used to own one, sold it to replace it with.....LOL!

The current Basis Signature 2800 would be a table that I think could actually compete with the top LP12 Klimax, and in some ways probably better it, but what price difference are we talking here...?

@tzh21y Linn themselves are now handling all US distribution. If your ’distributor’ is 5 minutes from your house- and won’t let you hear one of the tables, it is most likely because this fellow is NO LONGER a rep!
Perhaps contact Linn at the UK website for how to hear the table?
Compared to your Scout, to my ears the LP12 Radikal D is in a totally different and superior league. YMMV.

  @stringreen What you stated tells me that your LP12 was never set up correctly in the first place. Once set up correctly, the table does not ‘drift’ or any such thing. Pure and utter myth. 
Now, how you transported it home, well that’s another question, lol.

 @tzh21y   I guess it depends where you are located. I do know that Linn are now handling distribution in the States themselves. Could it be that the so called local rep isn’t able to demo for you. Since Linn are taking over, it doesn’t surprise me that much that they don’t have a local dealer set up for you to hear the gear....yet. Although it willl depend on where you are in the country.

 @stringreen  Please tell me how you moved your Linn once the set up was completed. What protocol, if any did you use. There is a way to transport a suspension based table, fail to do that and all bets are off. Plus, again, I am assuming that the set up was done correctly in the first place, an assumption that has proven faulty on numerous occasions with this table. Did your Linn dealer or rep do the set up, or was it somebody else...you?

@whart It is true, I am an advocate of the Linn table, simply because I do not like to see this excellent table decried by folks who really have little to no experience with the most recent versions. Instead, what I see are folks who are putting in their two cents based on their recollection of the table from twenty years ago or more, and from others who have absolutely no experience with it whatsoever, but are only too happy to naysay it.
Yes, the set up is crucial, but most Linn dealers were adept at that, and those that weren’t were usually able to direct you to someone who was. Problem is, that a lot of folks in the old days thought they knew how to do the set up themselves, leading to poor performance. These folks wouldn’t admit they had done anything wrong, so why not just blame the tool...or in this instance the design of the table.
I can tell you, I have owned this table in one form or another for over thirty years, and never have I been tempted to trade it in on a VPI or similar. If you understand the basics of how to place the table, and how to move it if necessary, all of the ‘issues’ that we hear about it going out of tune go by the wayside. OTOH, if you don’t follow some basic rules, then a more plug and play option, perhaps like the VPI or the SOTA’s will be more rewarding for you.

@stringreen   Now we are getting somewhere with you. The truth comes out, LOL.

@cd318  Once again another opinion from someone who probably doesn't own a Linn! Having owned one of these tables in various forms over the last thirty years, I have never had a problem with it 'drifting' out of set up. Not once! Linn owners who have had their table set up by anyone who knows how to do the job have also never had the issue.
Unfortunately, and as usual, there still are people who persist in putting in their 2 cents that really have no knowledge and thereby disseminate ongoing falsities. The Linn LP12 --particularly in its current guise, is certainly one of the victims of this behavior. Only question i have, is why Linn themselves don't step in and squash it? I guess these days they are too interested in selling their digital gear, too bad, IMO. 

@tzh21y   why do you think that there are problems with the Linn set up....when we have folks considering the set up by looking at You Tube videos...Yikes! 
You now state that the LP12 Radikal was better, but it cost more?? Shouldn't it be better if it cost more, duh!

@cd318. Fifteen year old Linn, set up poorly with a bottom of the line Basik plus arm and a entry level cartridge...is not going to perform at a very high level.
Unfortunately, your LP12 experience sounds like someone sold you a bill of goods and even more unfortunately, you didn’t have the experience necessary to realize how to change that. A much better solution for you would have been a Rega or similar. Plug and play basically. 
I believe you are 100% correct, you needed a plug and play table back then...and you still do.
But please don’t be naysaying the LP12 table simply because your experience with it wasn’t up to your expectations due to what sounds like bad dealer support and an inexperience on your behalf.

 @paulcreed  +1000

 @tzh21y You are not getting it! The whole problem of a table like the Linn, which needs to be set up very precisely is NOT to have an amateur like you ‘tinker’ with it! 
If you think the Technics 1200G sounds better than a properly set up Radikal D...well buddy, I guess as they say YMMV! 

It is unfortunate that you would have to drive 200 miles to hear the table, but I suspect if you wanted to hear a new Basis or a new Tech Das etc.,...you would have to drive even further. That’s just the way it is with this type of gear, it’s not a Technics- soon to be handled by your nearest Best Buy!

Right, their digital is not an easy sell. However, I truly believe if they were to come out with further improvements on the table...or better still, a new upgrade that would allow for more and better arms...then they would have a robust market for that turntable.

@cd318  It is pretty clear from your description that your dealer didn't really know how to set up the table. If it sagged on one side after a short time, it was because the dealer didn't get the spring tension correct and failed to tighten the bolts sufficiently! Like I stated before, you didn't have enough experience to realize what was going on..and so you blamed the table. A short drive of 20 miles would have given you a BIG benefit, IMO. The cartridge you mention is nothing special...and would have held the deck back.

@theoriginalthor1  I agree with you, Linn themselves have gone in a different and non analog friendly route ( plus how consumer friendly it is is another question). Having spoken personally to Gilad, I can tell you, he is not really interested in analog anymore. They will be coming out with a server soon..and other digital products. Personally, I believe his lack of interest in what gave his company their start and their success, is a bad omen for the future of his company. 

@paulcreed Remember Paul, all of these naysaying folks have far more experience with the LP12 than we do, even though most of them either have never owned the table, or they briefly owned it decades ago!

@tzh21y The table doesn’t need a high priest to get it right, nor does it need an amateur ‘tinkerer’ to screw it up! LMAO.

@rmwear you used to own a Linn...what model? How long ago? Inexpensively made..how? What do you own now...a VPI. LOL?

@latenitecity. Thank you for sharing that. Unfortunately, on this thread and many others about the LP12; there are folks who unlike you, have never owned a LP12, or who did decades ago...and yet these very same folks are far more experienced in the ownership and understanding of how this table works and sounds, than the both of us.

 @paulcreed  The LP12 is colored..compared to what?? Your Sony CD player!LOL. Spindle bearing can be damaged easily???? What the heck are you doing to that poor table, LOL. Bouncing it around in the back of your truck, like someone else here, LMAO. 
The Linn sound --what is that? Lose the Linn sound and keep the Linn sound...come on sunshine!

@cd318, Where on earth do you come by the idea I am a dealer,LOL. If I were a dealer, i certainly wouldn’t be wasting my time trying to convince anyone of the merits of gear on forums, particularly those that are tone deaf to my offerings, LMAO.
Since I am a CURRENT owner of the LP12 Radikal D, and have owned one version or another for more than thirty years, I would think that my ’opinion’ of the table might count more than someone who either has a) never owned the table, or b) has never heard one, or c) owned one decades ago and hasn’t since...LOL. Like most of the posters on this thread!
Do you fall into one of those categories...LMAO again!!!!

 @paulcreed   Again and again I guess i have to repeat the same old thing....THIS TABLE SOUNDS VERY DIFFERENT DEPENDING ON ITS VINTAGE!!!! 

If you heard an older model with the Valhalla power supply and the old Ittok arm, what you stated makes some sense, IF you heard a new Klimax versions with the Radikal D and the newer Ekos Se..or another great arm, like a 4 point 9...it makes no sense!
Compared to most American tables, I guess you are talking VPI's here...then I personally wouldn't swap the LP12 for any of them.

Your analogy with guitars makes me laugh...The Gretch is good for rockabilly and some jazz, that's what I use it for; the Strat and the Tele ( you forgot that one) is what i use for leads and everything else....
Not really a great analogy, IME. 

@viridian. +1

 @tzh21y  “The American Sound is one of the best turntables in the world”, LOL!!
Why would you think that....???

@tzh21y   What was the rest of the system when you heard the LP12 ..and with what cartridge? What arm was on the LP12 and mounted on the VPI? Same cartridge on both tables?

 @tzh21y  The old Linn cartridge would go a long way to explain why you heard what you did. Scantech made Linn cartridges years ago...and currently make their Kandid cartridge ( which is a very nice cartridge). Unfortunately, the old models from decades ago, leave a lot to be desired. 
Also, I am no fan of the Linn speakers and amps, they are typically veiled and not that resolving. Therefore, the end result would probably be like you described;but I can tell you, with the table and arm set up correctly, plus a great cartridge, like a current Lyra, the table sounds nothing like you described...and easily betters the VPI and the Technics. IMHO, there really is no contest.
The context is very important here, and unfortunately what you heard is not what a top of the line LP12klimax truly sounds like.

Or, you go with a Well Tempered Arm on the Linn. That’s what I use and it’s a superb match up. The ‘Black’ arm has all of the imaging qualities of the Naim Aro with none of the downsides, IME.

@tatyana69 Unfortunately, there are so many negative opinions on this table on the various forums from folk who have never even heard the table, never mind owned it, that it is easy to get bad information about it on the www.
This is why I ask the many posters who are favoring the Technics or the Crossley ( ;0) ) over the LP12, as to what their experience is with it; and what ancillary gear they were using ( if any!).
Typically, i get answers that are just pathetic and clearly showing a total lack of experience with the LP12, or for that matter analog in general!

Your experience with the 1200G is unfortunate, but absolutely no surprise to me.

Correctly set up and with the latest upgrades ( Radikal D, Keel/Kore, Ekos Se-1,Tramp 2 and new plinth/Booplinth) the table competes at a level that very few can match, if any! IME.

@roberjerman How would you know what the ’so called upgrades’ can do, if you have never installed them...?? Pity, I think you are very much underestimating these products, and overestimating your experience with the table. Just because they are pricey, doesn’t automatically make them invalid, although I suppose in your mind it does!

@tatyana69  The Avid is an excellent deck, Hard to fault. Which model are you getting? Having said that, I don't think the Acutus ref is any better than the top LP12 Radikal D Klimax, just different flavour. Cannot go wrong with either table. You won't be disappointed.

@rmwear   Agreed the upgrades are overpriced. However, like you pointed out, all audiophile products are overpriced...and turntable manufacturer's are one of the worst offenders!( palling in comparison to cable manufacturer's ( rip-off artists IOW)  I'm not going to try and justify the pricing, as I too think it is somewhat unreasonable, but at least the table can be updated, how many others can you say that about?

 @rwwear  Why, because he should be accepting of the fact that most a’philes are ok with being fleeced...and that is part of the hobby! I’m not saying the Linn is way overpriced, but the majority of gear in the hobby seems to fall into that category, and like I stated above, Cable’s in particular. Although, I am listening to one exception to that rule right now. Unfortunately, it is the very rare exception in the cable industry.

@tzh21y Listening to Magico speakers and comparing them to Linn speakers would lead to your conclusions. Unfortunately, you came to the incorrect conclusion about the table,but not about the rest of the Linn gear.

@swajames.   +1
Totally agree!

@tzh21y Really!! Since you know my system better than i do, please do enlighten us all as to what specific equipment you are talking about that I don’t own, but comment on. Let me tell you, if I comment on equipment, I either do own it ( like the LP12 Radikal D, which you have ABSOLUTELY no experience with whatsoever), or have extensive experience listening to it in person. So get a clue.

@dsholl1 Just like you are quite the expert in Linn tables.
Only difference is that I have heard the Kuzma on many occasions and with varying systems. Just like you have with the Linn...right??

@dsholl1   How ironic coming from the man who likes to post ad hominem's! 
You might consider taking your own 'advice', LMAO.

@cd318 Says he who couldn’t figure out why his brief ownership of an LP12 didn’t go well fifteen years ago and went on to a what?? a Crossley or no table at all...but is still experienced in all things Linn LP12. You have to love it.

@cd318 How ironic, look in the mirror...LMAO.

@brskie   Nice post. +1.

 @zavato  Nice post. I do think that if you were in the market today, even though like you stated, there are some good table choices, that the LP12 Magik would still beat out the likes of a VPI Prime.
Certainly it would be no contest between the Prime and an Akurate level LP12. 
Even though your LP12 is on its 21st year, you could easily upgrade it to the Akurate level or beyond, thereby saving a part of your initial investment. This, imo, is what makes this particular table still so attractive in today’s market, because how many other tables can you say that about?

You are still crying like a baby...and I’m not your mate.