Line conditioner...


Do you think using a line conditioner really helps get better sound?  Thank you for your thoughts.

mikeydee
never mind what we think. What do YOU hear?
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I've gotten wonderful results with a Audioquest Niagara 1200.

All the best,
Nonoise
A line conditioner is a fine useful thing.... BUT remember that adding any new component will add noise.... Audio electronic is an engineering art of trade-off...(see the link at bottom)

Then the more general problem, never solved totally by any line conditioner, is how can i decrease the noise floor of my house electrical grid?
(by electrical grid i think about all that is interconnected in my house, room, and gear)

No piece of electronic can by itself miraculously solve all problem...even a battery power bank will create his own noise floor even if it is lower than in your house....There is always ways to go further....How to decrease the noise floor of my powered battery audio system is an interesting question also....

I can also say myself like others here, my Panamax help me a lot....But i prefer to point to the true fundamental problem, instead of advising for the one brand i know in the sea of all brands at all price....

Nobody know the best conditioner under 1000 dollars except perhaps by reading all reviews.... The same thing apply for power conditioner more costly....

But no line conditioner can totally remedy for all of what is coming from the electrical grid, all by itself... Perfection is an idea not a fact....

Personally i has look for cheap way to decrease the noise floor of my grid.... Nothing is perfect but when we have results at low cost we are happy....I has keep my Panamax and apply my contriols methods on it also.... :)


This article summarize some aspects of this trade-off in electronic components...


https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/technical-articles/analog-design-trade-offs-in-applying-linearization-techniques-CMOS-circuits/

His conclusion:
« In analog design, we have to consider several aspects of circuit performance such as speed, power consumption, linearity, noise, input/output impedance, stability, and voltage swings. There are usually trade-offs between these parameters, and we cannot improve all of them simultaneously.»

Personally i have experiment successfully with passive minerals....There is no noise coming from  rocks.... :)
Interesting.... Thanks....

But you miss my last line.... This article also...
I am perhaps a bit too much unorthodox in my solution mode...

:)
depends on if you live with dirty power
A pure perfect clean power does not exist in any electrical  house grid....Sorry....
I don’t think they give you better sound, unless you have problem to begin with, nor do I think they choke things off if you have a good power supply in your gear to begin with.

Second, I’ve never used one to make gear sound better.
I use them for safety, protection, and maintenance.

No need to give up any of the three, and all lead to a better more reliable sound, for a LONG time...

Regards
If a conditioner doesn’t improve the sound its not a good conditioner. Because no one has good power. Even if they did no one has wires that keep the power good all the way to where its used. Which is a long way. All the way from the meter to the panel, through the walls and components and finally all the way to the voice coils. Every single inch of that benefits from conditioning. Or as mahgister calls it embedding. Whatever. Point is not what you call it. Point is understanding every single inch matters. Improve even one inch anywhere along that entire path and you will hear it.

At least, when you and your system get to where you can hear it you will. Because I guarantee you its happening, whether you and your system are good enough yet to hear it or not.  https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367
I always use them to protect my equipment.If they improve the sound its a bonus.
Interesting discussion...I appreciate all of your opinions....and they're all valid.


It is amazing how simple thing dont pass the border of understanding...

Any electronic component work by a trade-off....A line conditioner is a E.C.

Any E.C. will work better on some counts, way less on others...

If what we hear in some count seems better, we will say that this line conditioner is good...

But most being good can also act negatively on some aspect of sound, and people more sensible will perceive it....

Then why keeping a line condiotioner?

Because i use minerals to compensate some negative aspects, then i profit of the positive one without living with the negative one....

I live better also with a surge protector for my amplifier, and some separate one for my computer....

But i will not argue more about minerals (stones and crystals).... Being "fool" is one thing, being accusing seriously to be one an another...

I can live with the first, the second is an unnecessary troublesome impression that others makes on you....
Or as mahgister calls it embedding. Whatever. Point is not what you call it. Point is understanding every single inch matters.
You are right all along the electrical grid of the house there is source of noise that rest unadressed...

But you are wrong, the right concept is very important, because a bunch of "tweaks" is not a method...

Unknowleadgeable people can call "tweaks" snake oil or placebos.... They cant calls the triple embeddings which are a concept and a method, a snake oil....

My best to you and be glad with your marvellous Moabs.... I am very curious of their sound because of the original design.... Alas! no one own this here.....
nor do I think they choke things off if you have a good power supply in your gear to begin with.

A current-limiting power conditioner can DEFINITELY choke off and even shut down amps.  You need to match the conditioner correctly to the amps.
I have gotten great results with Chang Lightspeed powerline filters.

Lower noise, warmer sound quality, and better sound staging.

Works wonders in my home theater also.

Power factor correction, lightning protection, noise reduction, isolation between sources, and no added artifacts.

Not reviewed much. A hidden gem! Visit the website for complete info.

I used other line conditioners and A/C regenerators, but they all had negatives.

No drawbacks with Chang Lightspeed at all!
Look at High Fidelity Cable conditioners

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Can someone explain what ’dirty power’ sounds like. You can short the amplifier audio inputs (not absolutely necessary as long as you remove any interconnects) and turn the volume right up and all you’ll hear is any noise from the internal components and any noise that’s made it through the power supply. I get silence (alright a tiny bit of hiss if my ear is right up against the tweeter), my house is 100 years old and wiring probably half that, all kinds of nasty stuff plugged in but no impact on my hifi equipment.
pragmasi- Can someone explain what ’dirty power’ sounds like.

Yes but its better if you hear it for yourself. Its easy. Get your system all nice and warmed up some night and listen to your favorite music. Then pause, go out to your breaker box and flip off a bunch of breakers. As many as possible just be sure to leave the system on! 

Go back in and listen again. Pretty dramatic, eh? So now you know. And if you find a good power conditioner that is exactly the kind of improvement it will bring. BUT even with the best conditioner and a whole slew of excellent power cords and whatever else you can get your hands on it will STILL sound even better when you go out and do the same flip the breakers trick. 



Read the other 20 threads as well.HELLO!!
HELLO!!
@ebm  Oh that's nice... hello to you too!

I don't think I've read anywhere what 'dirty power' actually sounds like. I'm just interested in what the problem is that a Power Conditioner fixes... I think it's down to the amplifier designer to rectify and filter the power supply and it's not that difficult. Assuming most people here have decent equipment then I'd like to understand what the problem really sounds like.


You're basing your beliefs on a supposition. The quick and easy way is to try out a conditioner or you're just spinning your wheels.

All the best,
Nonoise
In my experience, the symptoms of dirty power are easiest to detect in:

HF:
- High notes that sound shrill, etched, glary, etc. This is often heard with vocalists who belt out high notes.
- Notes in the upper register of the piano that sound unnaturally ringy - or harsh.
- Vocalists with unnatural sibilance.

LF:
- Notes that sound too boomy with unnaturally, excessive resonance.
- Kick-drum sounds boomy - not tight & punchy
- Electric or stand-up bass that sounds diffuse - no tone or definition.
- One note bass riffs - can’t determine the octave of the bass line.
- Lower register of a pipe organ sounds muffled

Midrange:
Distortion is more difficult to discern. But, it’s there.
- Acoustic instruments have too much harmonics. For instance, a 6 string guitar sounds like a 12 string.
- Wind instruments - such as an oboe sounds soft & diffuse

Noise floor:
- With clean power, there’s a lower noise floor. More black & space between instruments. With dirty power, the background seems have diffuse ambiance. There would be a shallower sound stage - much less depth.
-----------------------------------------------------
Would the above distortions be allowed on a recording:

- By the recording engineer?

- By the mastering engineer?

- By the record producer?

- By the record label?

- By the recording artist?

Probably not. It’s your playback system. Dirty power is often the culprit.


Very good description...thanks...

I live through all these, and decrease and erase them by improving the 3 embeddings of my system....

@mahgister I’m glad that your approach works for you. Please respect that it isn’t the only way to deal with dirty power.   There are many companies that have other approaches that are quite successful.
I respect all experiences and more all people.... I only wanted to thank you for the description of this problem ....

Any audio problem can be approach in many ways and successfully...

But in my experience the source of noise in my system was coming from vibrations/resonance, from my electrical grid, and the sound was greatly impaired by the bad acoustic of my room...

You are right i know many interesting products to clean the noise in many ways.... I just cannot afford them then i was in the obligation to create my own solution, not perfect but it have worked for me....

Your description was corresponding to the problems i encountered.....

My best to you....