I think Jean Nantais is playing around with designing an external PS for his Lenco rebuilds. You could query him. |
When I had a VPI TNT Mk. II, I found that the SDS controller/regenerator was essential to optimizing its sonics. I figured it would be equally essential with the Nantais Lenco that replaced it (replaced in turn by another 2-arm Lenco).
Turns out, the SDS didn't do a thing for the Lenco. Nothing. Zip. The Lenco sure beat the TNT in every way that's important to me, but I couldn't tell a bit of difference whether it was plugged into the SDS or directly into the wall. I'm not sure what that proves, and I certainly wouldn't second-guess Jean's ability to come up with a better PS, but I wouldn't expect it to be cheap. |
You can get good used deals on the original PS-300's from PS Audio. They were one of the first regenerators and will do the trick. At one time I bought a deluxe motor controller from Walker Audio and after conducting A/B listening tests could not hear the difference with the TT plugged into the PS Audio or the Walker.
I currently have a Nottingham Ana-log with its own stand-alone motor controller. Again, I did A/B testing with the PS Audio and could not hear a difference. Maybe I lucked out and have decent power that does not need much conditioning. |
I'll add that I owned a PurePower 2000 re-generator for a year or so. It's supposed to put out a constant 120v at 60 hz. It made no difference to my Reference Lenco motor at all. |
Would not contact that nantais guy in any case, heard too many stories about his blatant arrogance and questionable customer service.
Maybe a used PS Audio power plant of some sort would be the ticket, its worth a try in any event. |
I found him great to work with, very cooperative and service-minded. Did gorgeous woodwork on my turntable, too. |
A PS Audio P300 doesn't do a thing for a Lenco either (had one, plugged the Lenco into it, no real difference). Too many negative stories about Jean? I've known him for almost a decade. and, yeah, he's opinionated and can come off as arrogant. I'd steer clear of him if I were you :-) |
I will steer clear of nantais, but been warned already, but thanks though for your advice :) Arrogance is often mistaken for knowledge, which in my life experience is misconceiving. In actuality, those possessing true knowledge have nothing to be threatened from, hence their lack of blatant arrogance. Humble knowledge wins every time over arrogance, at least in my opinion. ymmv as they say... |
Here is the thing, guys. The SDS and Walker Audio Motor Controller, and probably the PS Audio thingie, would not be expected to do anything for the Garrard or Lenco motors (apart from if you really do have noisy AC coming in). This is because at least the first two products are designed to control AC synchronous motors. The Lenco and Garrard motors are induction type motors. Mark Kelly showed that if you control such motors by reducing voltage, you lose torque until finally at a low enough voltage the torque falls off a cliff (no torque). Whether or not they can be controlled by AC frequency, I don't remember, but since they are not "AC synchronous", purely altering frequency is unlikely to be the solution. I think you have to control both voltage and line frequency. In any case, designing a controller for these motors is a specialized task. Mark Kelly was designing one, but the project is in limbo, at best. On Lenco Heaven there is a long term project to develop a controller and printed circuit boards, I think, will be sold to those who sign up. I have been wondering about the Loricraft, whether it is truly designed correctly to run an induction motor.
I don't see how it could hurt to use a PS Audio or other power regenerator in front of a Lenco or Garrard, if you have noisy AC, but don't expect miracles.
FWIW, my experience is identical to Dave's with his SDS; my Walker Motor Controller, which worked wonders with my Notts tt, does absolutely nothing for my Lenco. In fact, I took the Walker out of the way, because I think the operation of the motor was a touch less good with it vs without it. |
Jeremey72, since you seem to value "humble knowledge," would that not preclude prejudice, which is presumed and prejudged knowledge, and not at all humble? Lots of people have agendas and opinions. Certainly Jean has his, and he's a character. But he's a good character, in my experience, and has gone the proverbial extra mile in all of my dealings with him. But then, I approached my interactions with him humbly. YMMV. |
I too have had dealings with Jean. My experience was mixed. There was some good and some not so good. But I did not come away thinking he was a bad guy. Sometimes he over-reaches or makes claims that just do not hold up to close inspection. He built up a Lenco in CLD plinth for me. Two tonearm mounts, etc. I had several issues with it upon initial delivery, some of which could have been due to shipper abuse; some not. I had to do the trouble-shooting myself. But eventually we resolved all issues. |
Garrard 301's LIKE 220VAC much better than 110VAC.
Probably brcause they were originally designed for 50Hz 220VAC.
Some users actually do the power conversion so as to reproduce that scenario from 120VAC 60Hz mains.
Sounds weird but it does produce better results from the motor.
OTOH...IF you live in an area with 220VAC 50Hz mains then probably best to just plug it directly into the wall. |
Actually, the 301 does not really care what the voltage is as far as sound quality goes. Voltage is important but more so for other reasons. What makes the sonic improvements in a 301 is the frequency of the voltage. At 47Hz, the 301's motor will generate the least amount of resonance or vibrations. In turn that reduction of vibration will be heard as a much cleaner sound from the 301. 50Hz is almost as smooth as 47Hz and 50Hz is much smoother than 60Hz. |
Interesting, but confusing...If you run the table at 47 Hz then won't it run too slow? Sorry, if I am not getting it.. Just seems as if it might not lock onto 33 or 45 if running 47Hz with a 60Hz pulley, or 50Hz pulley for that matter. |
So does that mean you should run the Lenco motor at a lower frequency also?? |
Correct Jeremy, the speed of the 301 motor is, in large part, determined by the frequency of the mains. The voltage controls the torque and will affect the speed to a much smaller degree. The 301 will operate at correct speed with 47Hz and around 230v with some of the 50Hz pulleys and minimal eddy current brake. Remember, Garrard made many variations (by design and machining tolerances I am guessing) of pulley diameters for 50Hz because post war Europe had a fairly large variation in voltages. To get the most out of the 47Hz setting, a custom pulley needs to be used so the eddy current brake can be used to maximum benefit and optimal voltage (torque) dialed in.
I have not tested the Lenco motor but no doubt it will have a different preference. Most likely very different. |
Steve, Armed with the knowledge that you just dispensed, would it not then be possible to control an induction motor (i.e., my Lenco) with a power re-generator like those made by PS Audio, assuming that one or more of their products do allow for control of AC frequency? (I don't remember for sure whether that is true.) |
Lew, to a degree yes, you could control the Lenco. I do have at least two customers that have tried using newer PS Audio units on their Garrards and were less than excited by the results. I do not know much about the newer PS units but I lived with a P300/PS300 7-8 years ago. It would go down to 50Hz but only in 5Hz increments and the voltage would only go to about 135. And even though PS Audio claim it to be balanced, the voltage varied by 20-30% from side to side. Anyway, the range is severely limited for what you would need to control a Lenco or Garrard. I doubt you would generate enough voltage to compensate for the lower Hz in a Lenco and for sure not in a Garrard. The limited Hz choices of 50 or 55hz would probably be less than optimal. If you are serious, you need to get a Loricraft 301 control unit or one of the scientific power supplies floating around. |
Have you checked at LencoHeaven, because someone there was / is designing a motor controller. |
I noticed that. Still on the drawing board, I think. Thanks to Vetterone, I can conceive of building one from a frequency generator (saw a very cheap solid state module on eBay with a built-in digital read-out) driving an amplifier that can push ca 120V into whatever is the load of the Lenco motor. (I would need to measure that.) Might be fun to try that. |
It has been told on lenco heaven that it was mainly for convenience when used with a PTP,as you can change speed at distance.For the sound not a great difference so not a replacement unit for the loricraft. |
"It has been told on lenco heaven that it was mainly for convenience when used with a PTP,as you can change speed at distance.For the sound not a great difference so not a replacement unit for the loricraft."
Dear Gilles, I don't get your point. If the motor controller is properly designed to match the motor it is controlling (and this is a big "IF"), then the motor controller ought to confer all benefits at once. If the Lenco Heaven controller is badly designed to work with a single-phase induction motor (e.g., the Lenco motor), then I do see your point, but I cannot imagine that the guys on that forum would be pursuing such a goal. In fact, I believe the Garrard motor is a 2-phase induction motor. (Doesn't Garrard use a capacitor to split the AC phase?) Which has always made me wonder whether the Loricraft controller is properly matched for use with the Lenco motor. |
One of the answer is there
http://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=2042.1050
There is the answer from jlovey and his yoda lenco.
Go down the page to find jlovey's answer and some others. |
OK. I read what Jlovey wrote. He is saying that the main benefit of the Sanders controller in his opinion was the convenience of changing speed. But he does not say there are NO other benefits, merely that he is not overwhelmed by any improvement in sonics. But where does it say that the Loricraft controller will work sonic miracles with the Lenco motor? That's the part of what you wrote that induced me to comment. Indeed, it may well be that the single phase induction motor can benefit only minimally from any sort of controller. But you read what Steve Dobbins wrote: there likely is some voltage and some frequency which will cause the Lenco motor to run its smoothest and to therefore sound better because of reduced noise. We don't know what that magic combo is. Much more is known about maximizing performance of the Garrard motor, as Steve points out and as Loricraft is testimony to. Loricraft are rather opaque about the operation of their controllers, so one has no way of knowing for sure how they would work with Lenco. |
Spoke directly with Christopher from Artisan Fidelity at some length about the idea of using a power conditioner or regenerator with a Lenco L75. He said they and several of their customers had tried several top ac line conditioner devices with the Lenco but none of them (at least at this point) had proved to be something which he would recommend investing large dollars in. What he did recommend though was to plug their lenco's directly into the wall with a high quality power cable and nice quality outlet recepticle and even dedicated lines (in a perfect world) if you really wanted the Lenco to be at its best. He mentioned specific details also about proper grounding of their lenco and garrard 301 tables but I can't remember exactly what....it was a long day that day...knowledgeable guy though btw |
Dear Jeremy, You wrote, ....."even dedicated lines (in a perfect world) if you really wanted the Lenco to be at its best"
The major benefit of a dedicated line would be that the noise put back onto the AC line by the Lenco motor would not then enter other components in the chain. This would be perceived as an improvement in the "performance" of the Lenco, when in fact it is addition by subtraction. By the way, this same benefit should accrue from using a power re-generator. So, it does not quite make sense to say on the one hand that power re-generators do no audible good but that using a dedicated line does do audible good. A power regenerator dedicated only to run the Lenco motor would isolate the motor noise from other components. (Maybe his customers were plugging more than one item into their power regenerators.) |
Jeremy, it is a shame you really don't understand this business. If you went to the head instead of the tail you may find the correct answer. Butt you continue to fumble with the balls of confusion with this matter.We are so glad you are in the barn cleaning the stalls ,instead of wasting the landowner's time. |
Sorry Lithojoe aka "Home Depot speaker wire is the best guy" not all of us know everything like you do...must be nice to be so intelligent we should all be so honored by your presence and invaluable contributions. LOL
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"Spoke directly with Christopher from Artisan Fidelity at some length about the idea of using a power conditioner or regenerator with a Lenco L75. He said they and several of their customers...." "THEY" is plural. AF is a ONE man operation. _______ |
Jeremy , why don't you come over some time for a listen?
That is if you are not to busy on the phone........LOL........ |
Greetings Hiho, wrong there actually with the one man operation Artisan fidelity comment. There's one owner/ designer right (Christopher), but according to my notes they've got several woodworkers, a part time electronics tech and a couple machinists who they directly contract for custom designed metal fabrication. He said he works from home partly and from the woodshop located somewhere nearby. (Just spoke to the guy by the way, so I think I should know what the heck I am talking about here) on a side note, I enjoy reading some of your older analog postings btw, good stuff. :) Peace, J |
Jean Nantais highly recommends Monarchy Audio AC regenerator with the Lenco. I bought one of the Monarchy AC regen. I have tried it with Nantais Lenco and my Garrard 301. In both cases the improvement is substantial. Cleaner, smoother sound with a much better timing to the music. Grain is cleaned to a large extent. I found that Lenco sounds best at 240 volts 50 hz. Garrard 301 sounds best at 232 volts 50hz. Unfortunately this regenerator does not allow me to choose 47hz hence I cant know the difference between 50 and 47hz or any other frequency. Even voltages can be selected in steps of 2 volts so I know Garrard sounds cleaner and more spacious but a bit lifeless at 230 volts whereas 232 volts sounds a bit cloudy and constricted by comparison but the energy I expect from the Garrard is "there" so I prefer 232 volts as the best compromise on the Garrard. The question is, in what ways will a Loricraft controller improve things from here ? |
I just bought a Nigel speed controller described on lencoheaven.
Same gain with music as Pani described but I settle the voltage at 216 volts, far better than 233 volts found normally at home.
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