If you are recleaning your LP after you apply the LAST preservative, you are in effect negating it. I have never noticed a reduction in highs after using the LAST preservative. I have thousands of records that have the treatment. I wet clean and dry mine first using a VPI RCM, then apply the LAST treatment. I've been doing this way for almost thirty years now. This method has worked wonderfully well for me. In fact, I have never played a record without this method. I can pull out a record that I did twenty years ago and sounds like new...
I forgot to add that I have always used the LAST Stylast treatment with all of my cartridges and records. LAST claims a "chemical bond" between the preservative and the Stylast. Maybe that's why I have never noticed a reduction of high frequencies? IMHO, I REALLY like the LAST product and what it does.
Mofimadness, have you listened to your LP's before and after the treatment of LAST preservative? I clean my new and used LP's with Disc Doctor Miracle cleaner on my VPI 16.5 and then let then dry. I will listen to the whole LP. After I have listen to the clean LP, I will clean the same record again and then apply LAST. To my ears, the high frequencies seem a bit rolled off. I am following the directions for applying LAST. Is it possible to over apply LAST?
Mofimadness, I have LAST stylast treatment. I will give it a try with the few LP's I treated with the LAST preservative. Hopefully, that does the trick. I am new to vinyl and have read so many good and bad things about LAST products. I am just very cautions about these different products. Most of my new LP's range from 30-50 dollars a piece, so I want to make sure that I am doing the best thing to preserve the record, and of course keep the sound quality as perfect as possible. Thanks for your input.
Rick...the LAST preservative evaporates so quickly, I can't believe you could over apply it. In the very beginning, (many years ago), I did listen to many before and afters and was totally sold on what the LAST did. I haven't done it recently because I believe so much in the product I never questioned it. I know there are some who doubt what it does, but to my ears, I really trust it. This has been debated many times over, but I am on the PRO side of LAST. I guess I can let my records speak for themselves as to whether it works. I buy probably 10-12 new records a month, so I understand your concerns.
Rick, I have noticed this also and so I will not use any LAST products. I also won't spend any time discussing this because it always ends up badly. To each his own.
From the LAST website:
"LAST Record Preservative chemically enhances the molecular stability, and therefore the cohesiveness of the groove surface so that it completely resists the damaging effects of stylus shock waves.
The 30-second treatment affects the vinyl to a depth of about ten molecular layers and becomes part of the grove wall. There are no surface residues that can be picked up by the stylus. In fact, overuse is harmless."
With this in mind, wouldn't the benefit still be there after applying then re-washing the record? I would think so.
Back in the 1980s I called the LAST company and to my great surprise was put through to the chemist who formulated the stuff. I wanted to know if record cleaning fluid would remove his product. He said that the only thing that would take it off a record was a nasty industrial solvent unavailable to consumers. On the other hand, Duane Goldman, the creator of the Disc Doctor line, told me that his cleaner absolutely will remove Last record preservative. Until an audiophile chemist tests both claims (paging Myles Astor!) there's no definitive answer.
I have noticed a roll off in the high end after using Last, but after careful listening I think there is a very fine grain that is mistaken for extended high frequency responce that Last eliminates. Listen carefully.
Marty is correct - it is reducing tracing distortion somewhat, and in doing so reduces harmonic distortion.
I've had a bottle of Last I haven't used in years. Just listened and applied it to a record. I like it and agree with Marty t. It's returning to my cleaning regimen. (and I'll have to buy a new bottle soon)
For cleaning I use a VPI 16.5, Premeir First, then Record Research Deep, then RR Wash,....now Last.
Thanks for the thread...
I have used Last record preservitive , stylus cleaner and stylast treament for years and years. I absolutely agree with Marty's statement. It does not roll the highs but removes the grain.I beleive it also states on the instructions you cannot use too much as to cause harm to the vynil. I find it works best with the stylast treament for each side of play on Lp's treated with preservitive. Best used Lp's I have purchased were from owners who used it. Understandable as anyone who goes to the trouble also knows how to handle and shelf Lp's properly. I cannot state knowledge of other products as I have not used them, I stick with what I know for me works. Cheers..................................
I`ve been using LAST for more than twenty years.Never had a problem yet
Thank you for your responses. I really appreciate all the great information and advice from you all. I am new to vinyl, so all of your experience really helps! Some of you have mentioned that by applying LAST preservative, there is a reduction in grain at higher frequencies. Would you please elaborate more, or describe what you are hearing or not hearing. I have treated several more of my used records with mixed results. I have noticed that the highs seem to be a bit better if i use the Stylast treatment with those records treated with the preservative.
Do most of you use the application brush that comes with the LAST kit, or do you use an aftermarket brush. Also, do you use the recommended amount of fluid for each application, or do you find that you need to add more fluid to the brush? It seems like the fluid visibly evaporates after a quarter of a turn on my VPI 16.5 when I use the recommended amount fluid per the instructions. Should i be repeating the application so visibly I can see an even distribution of the LAST preservative on the LP?
Thanks again for all your help and info!
The first thing that occured to me was what Marty T posted. I've been using LAST since 1980, and never sensed a loss of anything but noise/grain(a parallel to Mofi's experience). My systems have always been very resolving, BTW. The creator of the Disc Doctor line obviously doesn't understand the difficulty of removing an agent that has molecularly bonded itself deep(relatively speaking) into the vinyl. If Disc Doctor COULD strip LAST from your vinyl: It WOULD also remove all the vinyl's elastomers. That would result in very brittle vinyl and irrepairable damage, every time the album was played afterward. YES- Use STYLAST as well(another excellent product).
I have no doubt that the compound does what is claimed as far as chemical bonding, etc. I don't have any doubt as to what the results sound like. Muffled. That may sound like graininess and noise being removed to some, and to some extent it is. But to my ears nuances and decays are not as extended. A bell still sounds clear, but the ring decay is much shorter.
I like LAST. I do not apply it, but on LPs I find that have it applied, are really the best I have ever found used.
Whether this is because the owners who used LAST cared so much for the LPs, or because the LAST really preserves the record I do not know.
As for what it 'sounds' like, I can say the reocords play better to my ears, on my mid-fi equipment.
"I also won't spend any time dicussing this"- OH? =8^)
"Just when I thought I was out, they pulled me back in." :-)
I fully believe that LAST was developed to make all of those mid-if/low-fi 'tables "sound better" back in the day. Less scratchy, less surface noise. Yeah, ok. It does that. But it does so at a price, IME,IMO, YMMV, etc.
I'm not so sure that is "entirely correct, as I'll bring up one point, LAST LP Preservative certainly isn't an "inexpensive" product, that's for sure!
I'm sure, just like cleaning debates, this one can have as many opinions, as posters-users of the product.
I've used it for a number of years, still have some on stash in fact, and to me, the product didn't seem to muffle-dull anything. But perhaps my system had enough of the mids, and highs regardless, to not be of much detrimental consequence? And I usually never did a before-after A-B test, so my opinons don;t count for much, as it was applied to fresh from the Jacket, mostly on fresh Mo-Fi's, and DCC's.
Some are close to 20 years old, and still look, and sound fantastic, just like the day I bought them. How they would've sounded untreated, I cannot truthfully say? And some have been recently re-cleaned with a full AIVS Process, and VPI 16.5, and still sound basically the same, no changes one way, or the other to my ears.
I can of course fully understand, and as well mostly agree with the purist's point of view, in that nothing should come between the Stylus-Groove interface, and that adding anything, could perhaps be recognized, and heard as just another "contaminant" added to the surface?
The purpose of the product was as its name implies, to "preserve", and most of us don't have the resources to accurately say just how well an "untreated" LP held up, and its sonic qualities compare, versus an exact same LP copy, that was LAST treated, after 70, or so plays. This is where the LAST product may have its advantage?
I'm not actually a proponent for, or against LAST, but I will say that this does seem to be a unique product, unlike virtually all other LP treatments that I've ever used. Mark
I have an LP or 2 that was bought treated with last, that although was pop and tick free, to me didn't sound good (rather dead sounding). I treated a few LP's myself with Last many years ago and can't remember the sonic effect. Of course my system (especially my front end) is far superior to today, so I'd likely better be able to discern what applying Last did sonically. I do use their stylus cleaner. I used to use the stylus preservative in an attempt to make the stylus last longer, but now I use a cart that has replaceable styli (which are only a few hundred to replace rather than a few thousand,) so I don't worry about about maximizing longevity. Of course I also don't have to worry about anything creeping up the cantilever either, so I choose to just use the stylus cleaner along with occasional Magic Eraser.
I'd rather just keep lp's clean (Audio Intelligent 1&2 with a Loricraft) and worry about the chance I may have screwed them up.