I personally feel if you have a great cart and a great arm little else matters...within reason. Worst case scenario just buy a different table for arm/cart combo later.
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The 4Point is an easy drop-in installation on the Stabi S. This combination, with the external power supply, was demonstrated at CES in January with a Kuzma CAR-30 cartridge to good effect.
Compared to the Stogi S 12 VTA the 4Point is better. I have sold and set up both. The Stogi S 12 VTA is certainly no slouch, far better than anyone anticipated, and at roughly half the cost of the 4Point it's a remarkable value.
I can affirm (Brian's - Essential Audio) opinion of the Stabi S and Stogi S 12 VTA. Even though I had a less than satisfactory meeting with him years ago; I bought a Stabi / Stogi 12 setup from him at This years Axpona. I am very happy with the table/arm and his setup of it. The Dynavector XX2 Mk 2 plays above its price point in this setup! Great value, Great arm/ table. I love the ergonomics of it!
In home auditions of TTs are impossible these days. Dealer demos = different TTs; also everything else is different, Only TT that has "Stood Out" was Tech Das III at Axpona. Yet again the whole system/room was different. My dealer, who I have worked with for 20yrs; tells me Tech Das IS special! And has setup a few!
I can only speak to my LP12, recently overhauled by "Tom" at Ovature Audio in Ann Arbor, MI. Sounds New!!
LP12, Ekos arm,Cirkus,Lingo, Lyra Kleos vs Kuzma Stabi S / Stogi S12 VTA, Dynavector XX2 Mk 2. They both play nearly together. The Linn has its "toe tapping" sound. The Kuzma has more detail, more smoothness, the 12" arm unravels complex passages with aplomb! Does not have the "toe tap" of the Linn but is "more real; more of the time"
I have been using a Stabi S with the 12 inch Stogi Reference arm before upgrading to the Stabi Reference turntable. The Stabi S is a superb turntable, and it is much better than its price and appearance would suggest. I preferred it to the much more expensive AMG Viella which I owned before I bought the Stabi S.
The Stabi S with a good arm comes very, very close to the Stabi Reference at a fraction of the price, and is one of the great bargains in high end audio. It is good enough for any arm available, and is a great match for the upper end Kuzma arms (I personally prefer the Stogi Ref arms to the 4 Point).
But make sure you get the version with electronic PSU, and do not get the additional platter "upgrade", which in fact makes it sound worse.
Thanks so much rossb, just the type of feedback I was hoping for. The Kuzma line of arms were confusing initially, but I believe I'm understanding their offerings now. There are four 12" arms, which all sit above the Stogi, but below, the 4-Point. First, there is the Stogi S12, in both standard and VTA (Stogi S12 VTA) versions. Then, it goes to Ref series for the Stogi REF 313... Again, also available in VTA version. My understanding is VTA versions can fit on tables that don't necessarily have provision for 12" arms. Then of course, the Non-VTA versions would need the full 12" (or so) from armband to platter. I'm by no means an expert, but I believe that to be the general idea. rossb, I assume that you have Ref 313 arm. Is yours VTA version? Just to be clear, it is my understanding that Non-VTA versions do indeed allow VTA adjustment by means of loosening/tightening a set screw.
I have the Ref 313 (non-VTA) arm on my Stabi S, but I also have the Ref 313 VTA on my Stabi Reference. You are correct that the VTA versions can be used on turntables which only allow for 9 inch arms.
The non-VTA versions allow for VTA adjustment the old fashioned way - loosen the grub screw, raise or lower the arm, and re-tighten the grub screw.
The 4 Point arms are theoretically higher performing arms than the Stogi Ref series. My dealer and someone else I know who has heard both thinks that the new 9 inch 4 Point 9 version is the best of them, being more dynamic than the 11 and 14 inch versions of the 4 point. Most people seem to rate the 4 Point arms very highly, but I owned the 4 Point 9 briefly and prefer the Stogi Ref arms, and I returned the 4 Point 9 for the 313 Ref VTA, which I am very happy with. I found the 4 Point 9 to be very detailed and quick sounding, but slightly lean and lightweight. It was, as is so often the case, more about hi-fi than music. The Stogi Refs are a bit less resolving, and a bit less neutral, but have a fuller, more robust sound which I find more satisfying. If you get the opportunity to hear both the 4 Point and Stogi Ref arms, you should of course make up your own mind which you prefer.
Old thread as far as original question, but I have asked the following question to someone pretty high up in the Kuzma hierarchy. Would the 313 REF arm be overkill for the Stabi S or S-12? I was told a customer uses a Stabi S with the Air Line arm. Given that answer, I left it at that. Then I mentioned I am considering pairing the 313 Non-Vta arm with the Stabi S-12. While this was not discouraged, the option of the 313 VTA with the standard size Stabi S was mentioned. I’m hoping this thread takes off a bit. The Tekton double Impact thread has over 14,000 posts (-:
I am hoping Brian checks this thread from time to time.
I switched out my S12VTA on my stabi S TT for the 4 point 9 and it has not moved the sound forward at all. The lower bass is better refined and controlled but the lower vocals, mids and highs are nowhere near as resolving.
I have the arm cable on a cable cooker to burn it in but even after 3 days it isn't even close. The S12VTA wins hands down. It is expertly set-up with AnalogMagilk software. Brian you installed the S12 VTA for me.
Anyone have similar results?
I have a Kuzma Stabi S TT w/ S12" VTA arm. I am selling my Linn LP12 after 28 years of pleasure from it. The Kuzma rig is better in 9 or 10 subtle ways over the Linn and the ergonomics are just hands down better. Bought the Kuzma rig from Brian at Axpona 2016 and he set it up. It has held all setup parameters for almost 3 years now without any problems.
At Axpona 2018, I bought a Technics SL1200G and had Ralph (atmasphere) mod it with a Triplanar Classic SE tonearm. Yes, the Technics rig is better, but I would not part with the Kuzma rig or buy the Kuzma 4 point that I see listed on A'Gon now. Two fine TTs as currently setup and playing.
Save the money and put in your "nickel jar" to save for a Technics/Triplanar rig, if you really want a top shelf TT and arm.
I am using the 4 point 9 on my Ref2 TT. I upgraded to the Cardas Clear wire which was a significant upgrade from the standard wire.
The 4 point 9 (with Cardas Clear) is one of the best arms I’ve ever owned. I would give it more time to settle in before writing it off.
Tonearm cable takes a few hundred hours to settle in and it might need more time.
When I purchased mine the dealer had it on his cable cooker but it took a few weeks of consistent playing to really open up.
I agree with Rossb, the Stabi S is a TT bargain. Put a Dynavector Mc on the 4 point and you will have an analog rig that can compete with the best.
nkonor"I have a Kuzma Stabi S TT w/ S12" VTA arm. I am selling my Linn LP12 after 28 years of pleasure from it. The Kuzma rig is better"
You're Linn was improperly setup, aligned, or adjusted if this is what you truly think, believe, and conclude the Linn LP12 is one of the most precisely designed, crafted, and manufactured playback devices for Music Reproduction Systems that has ever been brought to the audiophile market it is likely that your's may also not have had the latest upgrades, enhancements, and improvements that are offered by Linn.
Every piece of my LP12 has been gone over, and adjusted by Tom O'Keefe of Ovature Audio in Ann Arbor, MI. One of the best Linn Techs left in the USA. You are right; I do not have an Ekos SE, Keel or Radikal. Nor do I intend to do so. I have read all that daveyf has to say on this matter. Same drivel that comes out of your mouth. We disagree.
Best on your Journey
Like me, you probably are not a reviewer, but would appreciate all thoughts that you can share about the Stabi M. Daily ease of use,maintenance, holding its parameters, suppression to vibration and footfalls,any annoying little things or joys of use. I too like the high torque, thin plastic belt, heavy weight,one (1) DC motor choices Franc made in his design. Anything else you can share is appreciated. Really, little useful info has been put out there about the design and use of this TT, Other than it is one of the "Great Ones" to choose from. And seems to be a bargain/value. May I ask how much you paid for, "Out the Door"
Enjoy and Best on your Journey
Yes I’m not generally one to try and put these things into words. I tend to thing turntables are incredibly difficult to compare when we’re also factoring in preamps, cartridges, tonearm, etc... All those things NOT being equal within my system I can say the M outshines my fully restored Garrard 301 and Thorens TD-124, as well as the Merrill Williams/Triplanar and Basis 2500/Vector that I previously had.
The M is a joy to use. It simply feels right. It gets up to speed in a couple of seconds and is robust enough to not have to stop spinning between records (as Kuzma even suggests). After two years of use it is still perfectly level. The only maintenance required is a belt cleaning ever 6 months - year. Vibration and footfalls are non existent. That said it’s in my basement on a concrete floor...
All in all it’s a workhorse of a turntable that has a transcription-esque feel.
Lastly, I was lucky enough to find it just barely used, so the price was right for me.