klipsch speakers,be honest

You already know how I feel Bigjoe, and I've posted those sentiments to a few of the threads I've answered on this subject. I do believe you are quite correct about the setup and the gear you are using them with. I've heard them sound utterly unlistenable if set up to their disadvatage with SS gear. Then again, there seems to be a large group of supporters like yourself and others using Vintage Klipsch speakers along with SS and having very pleasing results, so go figure. Sean has made some interesting comments about improving the cabinets with bracing to get better sound, and, as you know there are many folks out there tweaking them in other ways. My LaScala SET system seems to impress most folks, audiophile and non alike, who come and listen to it. I think it has remarkable clarity and holographic presence. I think folks who are used to a more conventional 'rounder, softer' sounding speaker (those are my non-audiophile terms), could find the vintage Klipsch sound a bit to stark and harsh at times. I'll be curious too to hear some responses to this thread. I think the longevity of the technology and design of Paul W. Klipsch is truly remarkable in a world of technology that is changing at the speed of light. Same goes for Peter Walker and Quad. These brilliant pioneers designed products that still to this day, some 50 years after they were conceived of, still sound quite wonderful when settup right. Can they be outdone......are they the best? Yes and no, respectively. Certainly tecnology now offers all kinds of advantages in computer-enhanced engineering and design. Materials and components also have changed benefiting from the same. Klipsch, the company, took a turn in the opposite direction, IMO, when Paul sold the company to his relatives many years ago, and now their offerings cater more to midfi and entry level to compete with the likes of Bose. Quad certainly seems to have used the advances in technology to build on it's original foundation and raise the bar. I wish Klipsch had gone that direction. Instead the only two remaining designs of Paul's they still sell, the Khorn and LaScala (don't know if the "Jubilee" ever made it for public sale), remain relatively unchanged, and reportedly still sound damn good. Still, for not a whole lot of money you can have a very rewarding system using old technology that doesn't give up much for it's age, and you can find it right here in the used market, or at a pawn shop or garage sale going for bargain prices and offering a very satisfying voice to a thoughfully put-together system.

Marco

Sean- Yes, we've had this discussion before in another thread, which is one I think worthy of Joe reading. That's why I pointed out your suggestion regarding cabinet bracing and to search for some of your input on the subject. Also the wiring harness could stand much improvement (replacement), the seal of the cabinets on some models as well as drivers to cabinet seals on enclosed models. I've found that dampening the horns on the larger models (Khorn, Belle, LaScala) also helps. Built to a pricepoint? Absolutely. There aren't that many products that most folks can afford that are not built to a pricepoint. What's your point there? The few that aren't are not affordable. I can't think of an exception - can you suggest one? Regardless of their build they have been very rewarding speakers for me to own and listen to the music I love through. I have no doubt they would be to many others, in spite of what may be considered flaws by some. I do wish that the company had pursued further development and refinement of Paul's designs instead of focusing more on mass-market products.

Marco

Exertfluffer - If you'll look back on your previous identical question regarding where to find the crossover upgrades that you asked on another Klipsch thread you will find that I answered your question and provided the links to the ALK site, as well as a review of their products on Enjoy the Music site.

Marco

Exertfluffer - You can find that thread and the links in my last response here

To find any previous contributions to forums you can use the link "My Page" then log-in if you have not, click on "Forums Threads" and it will give you a list of your threads within the past month. You can also click another link to get your complete history on that same page that comes up.

Marco

I can confirm first-hand just about all the points that Sean makes regarding the vintage Klipsch. My LaScala's have improved significantly with modifications Sean mentions. The only thing I have not done is rebuild the bass cabinet, and that is the only area I feel the speakers are currently lacking (bass currently takes a nose dive at 50hz). Here's my take on the improvements I've done:

Internal wiring harness: Replaced with DH Labs silver wires - a noticeable difference in clarity and detail. The stock harness is simple 16 ga. copper wires.

Swapped out the stock tweeter with Fane 5020 - this made a HUGE difference in the upper register bringing out details I'd never heard on these speakers before, making the entire range sounded more coherent, and musical. These tweeters required padding down as their 110db sensitivity is too hot as-is. Of the modifications I've done, this one certainly made the most significant difference to me.

Replaced stock AA crossover with ALK's crossover. Here's where I'd take some exception to this as a 'rule' for guaranteed improvement. In my much smaller listening room at home I preferred the 'softer' and more dimensional sound of the stock AA crossovers. Though the ALK's exhibited more clarity and focus, and were imediately recognizable as an audible difference, I still liked the AA's better in this space. I tried all different settings with the ALK's and swapped back and forth for many days and sessions. I ended up sticking with the AA's as they just sounded more dimensional and natural to me. It reminded me of the difference between a 'tubey' sound and an SS sound, the later being the ALK. Later I moved my LaScala's to a much larger listening room (my work space) where they had room to breath. Here in this space the ALK's won hands down delivering both laser focus, clarity and the width and breadth of soundstage they seemed not to in the smaller space. I think perhaps there was some element of 'fatigue' in the smaller space that just doesn't occur in the larger one with the ALK's. The soundstage seemed to equal that of the AA's in the larger space, whereas in the smaller space the AA's seemed to provide a wider and deeper stage. I'll leave that one to Sean to try to explain as I was baffled.

I have no doubt the bass could be improved as well, and the cabinet is merely adequate in construction (as far as speaker cabinets are concerned) and stands for much improvement in reinforcement to assist in this realm.

Still, the clarity, the transparency and the speed of these speakers in my system, to my ears, has kept me spoiled in a sense as everything else I listen to falls short somehow. Granted, this is only a personal preference, and I certainly have not heard all there is to hear.

Anyway, good advice by Sean!

Marco

Hey Fishboat - The closest experience I have with the Chorus speakers is with their smaler cousins, the Fortes. These speakers use the Tractrix horns and forward firing bass drivers, so are quite different from my LaScalas. I did enjoy the Fortes as great speakers for rockin' out. In a smaller room I wonder if the Chorus aren't giving you problems with bass-loading the room? They do put out a significant low end if they are anything like the Fortes. You may try fiddling with speaker position and room treatments to address that. Doesn't have to be proprietary treatments, you can use things like curtains, rugs and plants to help. The 'fatigue' I mentioned only happened with the ALK crossovers in a smaller room and had more to do with the mids and highs than the bass. Your Chorus speakers produced significantly lower bass than my Scalas do. As far as 'surgery' on the speakers themselves, without any direct experience I'd be at a loss to give you specific advice. From experience with many other Klipsch products of that era and earlier I'd guess swapping out the wiring harness with better wires and reinforcing the cabinets would be at the top of my list of where to start. But honestly I'd try addressing the room first if listening fatigue is the problem. As you know, I certainly do prefer tubes to SS with the vintage Klipsch products so I'm not at all surprised that step was, as you say, a significant improvement.

Marco

Fishboat - sounds like the Snell's are a better match overall for your system/room as it stands now. I don't have any experience with Snells, so can't comment beyond that as far as comparisons go. I would've thought the Chorus put out more bass than the Forte's from their larger size. Don't they also have the passive woofer firing to the rear (as do the Fortes)? The Fortes would not be my choice for the music I love most (acoustic, vocals, strings, small-scale classical arrangements). The larger Klipsch speakers that Paul designed have a more 'refined' sound to my ear, which comes out mostly in the midrange. The newer designs using the Tractrix horn and large, forward-firing woofers are more of a rockin' out speaker IMO, and I've moved on from that kind of music to where it is only a very small portion of what I enjoy. I believe their current designs use similar architecture, the few of those I've heard have not impressed me at all. Again, no direct experience with the Chorus to share. Perhaps Sean can be of some help here (?).

Marco

Ah, yes, Sean's post (thanks Sean) reminded me of the one modification I did leave out: The outside of my metal horn is covered in dampening material purchased at PartsExpress. This is the stuff they use to dampen the inside of the doors of automobiles. Dynamat is the more expensive version of a the similar stuff. Works wonders on the 'ringing' horn syndrome he Sean mentions.

There is a forum section over at Klipsch.com where much of this stuff is discussed ad nauseum. A source of some good information (as well as misinformation just as any Internet source) if you care to sift through the archives. There is another tweeter made by a Spanish manufacturer that has very close curves and sensitivity to the stock EV T35/Klipsch K77. Many folks over there have been delighted with this as a drop-in replacement. Can't recall the brand, but a quick search over there oughta find it. I believe AlK also endorses this particular tweater, and certainly the potential for improvement, in posts on that site.

Of course little of this applies to your Chorus speakers since they do not use the same tweeter and the tractrix horns are plastic. I'd have to agree about sealing the cabinets better. I did that on my Heresy's by replacing the back with thicker MDF and adding sealent around the perimiter of all the drivers. It made an audible improvement in the bass response and tightness. I think in your case the cabinet only has the driver openings to improve the seal. You can purchase a caulking material to seal around the drivers better as an option to felt. Again, PartsExpress, or any speaker-building supply should have this stuff and it is cheap.

Sean, thanks for the tip on dampening the Solens. I'll give that a try, although I am delighted with the sound of my speakers right now. The only place I'd like to improve them is in the bass region. I did seal up the box at the bottom better, and around the bass driver. I've been toying with the idea of building a forward-firing bass cabinet and creating an arrangement more like the Oris and Avantegarde. Still, since I'm not really a bass freak it may be a long time before I do this. It is certainly not a glaring fault.

Fishboat- in addition to Sean's good advice, search the forums over at Klipsch to see if you can come up with more Chorus-specific advice.

Marco