I love the sound even through a you tube video but you would need a dedicated big room to do those speakers justice, man, are they BIG!
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You do not need a large space for most horn speakers to integrate and horns are considered by many to be superior sounding at low SPL levels. Many who don't have experience with horn systems repeat the same bull passed about as facts. All horns don't honk, all horns are not colored, all horns are not glorified PA devices and you don't always need large spaces to house a horn speaker. |
johnk, Thanks for sharing. I totally agree with you. I think there's a great deal of misconceptions many have about horn loaded speakers. Also, your comments about the size of the room not having to be big are spot on. I asked Roy the engineer about whether or not a big room was needed and he said the same thing you did. Thanks again for shedding light. |
@johnk wrote:
I agree 110%, Also, horns do scale of image well! Mike |
I had waited for MAnY years to try Klipsch! And especially after hearing that they tend to be a "Little bright". I finally got some and thankfully my older stereo allows me to totally retune them. They have No Top end so I had to turn up the treble about 9 DB and the bass was so overwhelming I had to turn the bottom end down about 12 DB. That is totally unacceptable this totally reinforces my 50 year old opinion that if you want good sound build your own speakers.. |
@johnk , quite correct. The major advantage of horns aside from their efficiency is their controlled dispersion. This limits room interaction and improves imaging.. I have never heard Jubalees but have a lot of experience with K horns. They do not image well as the drivers are not time aligned and the mid bass is colored which is euphoric for some people. It would be very interesting to digitally tri amp them and get rid of the group delays. I am guessing that the colored mid bass is due to the large, complicated enclosure. Large panels resonate as a function of size as related to panel thickness, the ratio. Think stringed musical instrument. |
@mijostyn wrote:
Indeed, that would bring out more of their potential.
Relatively large they may be they’re actually too small as a bass to lower midrange horn (corner placement by virtue of extending the horn helps make it act as a horn lower down), which is only exacerbated by several horn path bends up to 180 degrees. Some compensation can be attempted here with a higher compression rate, i.e.: a smaller slot area in front of the woofer to aid upper range extension, but this in turn can create new issues related to upper bass irregularities and colorations due to horn path constriction and air velocity. Cabinet resonances are likely part of the problem as well, but I’d wager they’re really not at the core of the issues mentioned. |
I am a horn lover / owner for 50+ years, but I do feel very large horn speakers ( like the Jubilee ) requires a greater distance between them and the listener, as my experience tells me. I cannot enjoy my ears feeling that they are inside the horns. I have heard many super large stage / pro / commercial speakers by Klipsch and others, and the greater distance between them and me, in almost all cases, was better...." to me ". Whatever makes you happy. I have said many times, each of us are different, in how we hear, how we listen, and how we determine what we like. My best, and ENJOY ! always, MrD. |
@mrdecibel wrote:
To my ears: more than horn size (and segment use) per se wrt. required listening distance is the importance of the overall design specifics, like the distancing between the driver/horn elements, and not least how many of them there are. Very generally, and at least some things being equal, I’d say the bigger horn the less it sounds like a horn. To me it’s quite important for a horn to actually act like a horn in its frequency range, and this is about approximating proper size (as well as a suitable flare geometry) for the horn to "behave" well and maintain directivity control. Also about matching those directivity patterns at the cross-overs and further aid integration and coherency. A large Synergy horn with a summed multi-driver output into a single point source will gel perfectly at the LP at a very close distance. Of course splitting up the driver sections into individual large horns will create spacings between those sections and thus necessitate some distance (and delay fiddling) for them to cohere properly at the ears, but with fewer large radiation surface sections with matching directivity patterns this is less of an issue. And the perceived "ears feeling that they are inside the horns"-sensation to me is really about the specific horn geometry and the quality of the amps used. With a proper, large horn flare and highly resolving amps the sound won’t crawl into your ears - even fairly up close. What such a combo will provide is a relaxed presence, solidity of tone and visceral imprinting that I find wins out vs. a smaller, more compact horn implementation. But that’s just me :) |
I’ve been a fan of Klipsch’s bigger speakers ( La Scalas & Klipschorns) for a long time & appreciate what they can offer w/ good quality amplification, especially good tube amps. If you want truly “live music” sound, good horns are unmatched. If you want etched, hyper detailed, pinpoint imaging, “hifi” sound, some good quality narrow baffle, super hi tech cabinet speaker w/ heroic amplification will be more to your liking. Recently, I’ve found Volti Audio speakers which are similar in some respects to Klipsch but across the board better in every way; driver quality, crossover components, cabinets, wiring, terminals & most importantly sound. Greg Roberts started out offering serious upgrades to the big Klipsch models which were much improved over stock units until he started built his own designs. If you have an opportunity to hear any of the Volti’s at one of the shows, check them out. They’re a truly excellent, artisan made, American product that sounds great & fun to listen to!! |
The only speakers you can really listen up close to are full range ESLs as everything is coming from one driver. Sonically you never get close to the speaker. As you move towards two and three way speakers it becomes obvious at some point that you are listening to a loudspeaker as the frequency range separates into different drivers. The sound changes. As you walk up to an ESL the sound seems to remain in the distance, unchanged. Horns are no different than any other two or three way speaker.
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My speakers are hybrid (CD) horns with two 15'' woofers and a horn above said woofers. That said, the speakers are very coherent and offer a high degree of placement flexibility, and the listening positing can be quite close with no loss of stereo imaging. I.e. You can sit three feet or twenty three feet, from the speakers both standing and seated listeners, with no loss of stereo image. In my opinion a high powered amplifier will never be a proxy for a speakers lack of true efficiency. See below time domain response: 😎 Mike http://proaudioencyclopedia.com/time-domain-response-in-monitor-loudspeakers/ |
i havent used horns in a while, but i bet horns sound better comin out of horns. i bet u get closer to the sound of horns via horn speakers. in both cases, you got a horn blowin air into the room. thought about this when wondering why the elctric guitar seems the easiest to capture. well, in a room or on a record, for an electric guitar its speaker cones pushin air. |
I had made some altec horn diy speakers back in the late 70s.....sounded horny as hell......and harsh. I then discovered a local high end dealer who had K-horns and Quad electrostats.......I asked him to A/B the speakers......and they sounded very close in quality. HOWEVER.....this was a nude unfinished K-horn. You could see the xover right on top and the tweeter was mounted all the way in the back....right over the midrange driver......no other mods. He told me that if he put the tweeter back on the front panel I would run screaming out the door. YOU MUST TIME ALIGN......why the heck would you want the tweeter info to arrive a decade before the midrange.....and same with the bass. The Jubilee is time aligned in the electronic xover......so this is the only Klipsch done correctly......no wonder the designer says he thinks the Jubilee is way, way better than anything before.....and you have the tweeter and mids coming from one place....so the only time alignment needed is to the bass bins.....which they did.....good on them. |
@ricevs " tweeter and mids ".....high frequencies and midrange. The Jubilee is a two way design, which I believe you understand. Paul always wanted a TOTL 2 way, and Roy took it to market🙂. My best, MrD. |
@ricevs wrote:
It is any horn speaker done correctly, and configured actively it is the way to go - fortunately an approach not exclusive to a Klipsch speaker.
Maintaining a point source from the lower mids on up is indeed the main takeaway. The Jubilee’s does so with the (re-branded?) Celestion Axi2050 without a crossover point in its region all the way up into the upper octave, though it does seem to need some attenuation up there. A coaxial, dual concentric diaphragm approach on the other hand from the likes of BMS (and, I guess, more a less copied by JBL for their version of it) would likely have a more (without needing attenuation) extended upper range with a smaller, dedicated diaphragm here, however necessitate a crossover point somewhere in the upper mids - while still being a point source. Then again the Axi2050 has the more extended, and less distorted lower range via its larger diaphragm meeting the bass horn, arguably the more important parameter in conjunction with the big K-402 horn, which is also more appropriately sized compared to its smaller Klipsch brethren. Active config. for proper delay adjustment and better amp-driver control, larger horn size for more proper horn loading and directivity control, and maintaining a single point source in a vital frequency spectrum - that’s certainly Klipsch doing right by following physics and common sense here, kudos. While I haven’t yet heard the Jubilee’s and can’t comment on their sound, I do find their solution with a ported/horn-loaded combo approach in the bass horn (in want for more extension) somewhat conspicuous. Ideally I’d have gone with a classic front-loaded horn design (with the woofer mounted in a sealed chamber) and firing into as few, preferably only 90 degree bends as possible, while leaving the two lower octaves down to 20Hz to a dedicated pair of (tapped) horn subs. But then again that makes for more complexity and a less saleable package - decisions, and compromises. |
My 1st home theater was a Klipsch Heritage 5.1 system back in 2000, with Klipschorns front, LaScalas rears, KLFC7 for centre, and Velodyne FSR18 subwoofer. All hooked up to a Marantz Reference SR18EX A/V Receiver and 5 MA700 mono blocks. All in a larger 2 bedroom apartment, the neighbors loved me.....😁 |
The sound from the Jubilee's was horrible when I heard them at the 2022 Axpona show. Klipsch did a terrible job on the demo for these at the show and didn't properly set these up. For you naysayers that say it was an audio show and everything sounds bad, there were MANY rooms at the show that sounded just fine so this isn't an excuse! I'm sure it's a good speaker but the average consumer will have nowhere near a big enough room for these. I hope Klipsch does a better job this year on their room. Axpona is in 2 weeks, and I'll be there. |
I bet it was the amps more than the room. I have Jubilees in a small room with excellent results. I have been playing around with different amps, and what a difference amps make on these speakers. I was hoping to get info from others who own or have heard Jubilees, but so far not one person has any good info about the actual speakers. |
@souljasmooth what is your room size, and how far do you sit from your Jubilees ? I sit 8ft away from my Lascalas, and this works great for me. I cannot imagine Jubilees in my room, as I mentioned in a prior post. My best, MrD. |
@souljasmooth wrote:
My assumption as well. As I’ve mentioned previously amp choice is vital with most any horn-based speaker, and can make a great difference wrt. the overall balance of sound and whether it’s perceived in-your-face or not. However, strictly speaking whatever accounts for @willywonka’s Jubilee impressions at named exhibition last year is pure guessing, and let’s not forget that as there are different rooms, setups and choices of implementation, there are as well ears belonging to different individuals.
My ears are ~11’ from the acoustic center situated between the lower edge of the large format horn and upper edge of the dual 15" woofer bass bin of my EV cinema speakers, and here the sound coheres wonderfully. I.e.: they’re 2-way speakers with the vertically aligned woofers coupled in parallel and the horn covers from ~600Hz on up. They’re subs augmented below ~85Hz. Which version of the Jubilee’s do you own - the pro version made prior to the current domestic ditto? It would seem it shares the same MF/HF horn as the domestic variant but with a different driver, and the bass horn isn’t ported. |
@souljasmooth wrote:
Great. What amps are you using? |
@souljasmooth wrote:
I see. This can be a fairly arduous process finding the proper amp match, combination and configuration, and in any case you're left to your own findings eventually. Have you formed any preferences so far - an inkling perhaps towards tubes, SS, or a combination or the two? Low powered amps vs. higher powered? Similar amps for both the MF/HF and bass section? Even though the Jubilee’s are extremely efficient, my take is they’d thrive on some power still, despite claims to the contrary that much less power is "enough." Moreover, if using a similar pair of stereo amps, try experimenting with vertical vs. horizontal bi-amping. This to me at least was an eye opener in my actively configured, high eff. speaker setup; using similar amps for both the MF/HF and bass section of my 2- way main speakers (the first important takeaway), and then configuring them vertically instead of horizontally - i.e.: one amp per speaker with its two channels divided over the MF/HF and bass sections. That’s where it all really began falling into place sonically, to me. |
arcticdeth1,520 posts
You lost all credibility when you mentioned Adcom. Only a fool would pair horns with a pair of high powered SS amps, especially Adcom. |
Ozzy62 i must be a fool because I have used constellation, and Accuphase with the Jubilees and both sounded really good. My favorite combination so far is tube for mids/highs and SS for the subs. The problem I am having is I cant find a tube amp quiet enough. I listen mostly at lower/medium volumes. |
I have heard two of the quietest tube amps recently. A Music Reference RM 10 II and a pair of Audio Mirror Eargasm monoblocks. Putting my ear next to my LaScalas with either of these amps powered up would fool you into thinking they were turned off. Horns are notorious for revealing any shortcoming in upstream electronics. Horror stories of earbleeding experiences with horns are usually just that, mismatched components. |
@ozzy62 wrote:
I don’t share that sentiment.
Remember that the Jub’s are actively configured sans an intervening passive crossover to filter noise; when actively configured the amps are looking straight into the very high eff. driver sections, and thus any inherent noise coming from the amps is amplified and exposed. @souljasmooth wrote:
How about looking for some lower powered class-A SS amps, for the top section at least? They might fit the bill sonically, while being suitably quiet. |
I have been using horns for the last 10yrs. Avantgarde Trios, Tannoy Westminsters, etc. To my ears the Jubilees have more potential, if you can get past their cheapish build quality. Then again if they were built using exotic materials, they would be pushing six figures (which I wish they gave that option). I am looking for something quiet but something high quality. Not to say the Eargasm isnt high quality, but they r pretty inexpensive. |
@souljasmooth Wrote:
I also listen mostly at lower/medium volumes. Look at the Quicksilver horn mono tube amps. My speakers are JBL 4435’s actively bi-amp their efficiency is 2.7% and sensitivity is 96 dB SPL @ 1 watt @ 8 Ohms. I also have a Crown Studio Reference 1 solid state amp class AB that is dead quiet on said speakers. I have been using horns for the last 45yrs. Mike |
The Jubilees are around 108db efficient, and compared to the Avantgarde Trios which I think are close to the same, The Jubilees seem alot more efficient but more sensitive to noise from the amp. I saw a video where Klipsch was demoing Jubilees with Rotel Michi amps. Anyone go to that show? Im curious how it sounded in person. |
I want to be clear about this. Everyone I overheard talking about the Jubilee’s or talked to at the show had the same exact impression on these speakers. In fact, even the major publications commented about it. My impressions AREN’T guessing but was in fact the popular opinion at the show by many people! Also the fact that some people are blaming the amplification seems odd. The Manufacturer (Klipsch) provided this, and you would think that they would know what they are doing. Amplification was Michi P5 preamp, and Michi S5 stereo power amp. I have no doubt these speakers can sound amazing, but they just didn't sound right at that show,
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@willywonka wrote:
I didn’t mean to imply that your impressions of the sound of the Jubilee’s was a "guessing game," but rather that whatever specifics accounted for their lack of performance to your, and apparently others’ ears as well, was up in the air.
To start with one would expect the representatives from Klipsch had some level of critical assessment and final approvement of the overall sound coming from the Jubilee’s at named show, and apparently they failed here, so whether it was down to the choice of amps, active filter settings, acoustics, speaker placement or other, well - who knows? But being you were actually there, what more specifically threw you (and others) off wrt. their sound, and did you listen to other larger horn-loaded speakers to make for some comparison perhaps? What type of speakers do you prefer generally, if you even do have any preference based on the speaker principle involved?
If they’re present at Axpona this year hopefully it’ll turn out more successfully for them and the listeners. Large horn-based speakers, perhaps not least of the all-horn variety like the Jub’s, can be an imposing and rather different listening experience compared to the more typical segment of low eff. direct radiating speakers of vastly smaller size. To some that’s a blessing, and to others it may be too much or simply too different an experience for them to appreciate and savor. Well-made and -implemented large horn speakers don’t necessarily sound "imposing" per se, but one has to remember these are very different animals compared to the more "standard" fare of speakers; the uninhibited dynamics, presence, scale/size of sound and physicality can be quite startling, certainly at prodigious SPL’s that are often displayed at shows. That said not trying to excuse the Jub’s performance at Axpona ’22, however they might’ve performed to my ears. |
I have used ss with horns for years, and admittedly, some ss can be harsh. But I would blame the room and set up, more than the amplification. Phusis, in his last paragraph of his latest post, makes a lot of sense. I know people who cannot handle the dynamics, and / or other horn traits, because it is too much for them. A correspondent of mine cannot listen to Miles Davis, because he says the horn hurts his ears, and this is through some Maggies. To each his own. My best always, MrD. |
@ditusa @phusis @mrdecibel @johnk : ...Loving this discussion and hope to hear the new jubes at some point soon. Do you have plans to hear the new Jubilee's? Would love to hear your thoughts on them. @phusis - can expand upon your criticism of the new Jubilees' ported bass horns ... do any other manufacturers' or DIYers bass horn place the woofer is in a ported enclosure (vs the typical sealed)? I think Roy said this was his invention and he patented it. I understand the intent is for lower extension, what is the tradeoff in your opinion? Is the bass horn just being asked to perform too far out if its range and start impact the sound negatively? I have seen some folks on the klipsch forum with the older underground jubilee's who have done what you recommended, ie, tapped horn for the lowest octaves, Jube horn up to say 400-500hz, then let the K402 take over. I'm not sure Klipsch would dip into tapped horns, as that tech belongs to Danley sound labs, no?
At Axpona last year, what space were they playing in, and what was their placement within that room? I have seen videos where the new Jubilees are out in the middle of the room playing, as opposed to being placed in the corners like the klipschorns and underground jubilees. Perhaps the bass horns are sufficient in size along with their onboard DSP as to not require the corner bass reinforcement, but maybe that comes as a tradeoff in sound quality? Maybe they would still benefit from corner placement for more natural playback...
Have any other companies/DIYer's utilized the Celestion Axi2050 in their horns? I've read they are similar in sound quality to a TAD 4002 with out the high frequency extension, and extend down to ~250hz. really, i want to know what Celestion envisions as the perfect horn for the Axi2050. |
It's been a year, so I don't remember the specifics of exactly why they didn't sound good, but I do know they had no synergy at all. Considering the efficiency of these speakers and how well they match with good tube amplifiers, I was very surprised Klipsch decided to match these with the Mitchi electronics. I would have thought Klipsch would want these sounding their best considering it was a new speaker demo. Nothing against Mitchi but I assume they could have done better. Could this have been a marketing decision and agreement with Rotel? I will definitely be going back to their room on the 14th. I'm looking for some new speakers and will also be evaluating the Volti speakers too although I have heard them before. I need some speakers in the $5K-$7K range that sound good at low listening levels. Both the Volti Razz and Klipsch Cornwall's look interesting. |
I was lucky to get my hands on the axi2050 before they hit the market and was asked to give my opinions on it in different horns sized enough to take advantage of it. Celestron has a CD horn they suggest it's good if you want to use CD EQ DSP and not a tweeter. But I found axi sounds best with tweeters and has a nice roll-off after 3000hz. All horns I used it in have a 150hz-250hz lower range. I greatly enjoyed it in massive multicell and a huge biradial I have. It also did well with more narrow 40x90 radials. I updated my pic to show system axi is used in now. |