Kimber 12tc incompatibility with ayre my-r twenty


I  am having a problem I have been trying to figure out for the last month . I think I have an answer now . I would like to know if anyone has had any similar experience .
i recently upgraded from an all parasound system with jc-1 , jc-2 , jc-3 to an all ayre stack with kx-r twenty , mx-r twenty, Qx-5 twenty, px-5 and cx-5. I retained all the kimber cables and speakers kef blade 2 speakers that I had.
The sound was phenomenal, so romantic so clean , amazing vocals , so powerful at the same time . I loved it, gave me goosebumps.
But the power amp would turn off to standby when I played it real loud .
i reached out to ayre. They have the best customer service in the entire audio business. Amazing group of people who love music and their products and stand behind their products. We tried a lot of trouble shooting and finally figured it was the kimber 12tc speaker cable as the culprit. With cheap Best Buy speaker cables the system functions flawlessly. They felt it had to do with high frequency oscillation or rf as the cables are not well shielded.
has anyone had similar experiences
I have reached out to kimber to get their input.
thank you .

newtoncr
so the cheap Best Buy cables are better shielded than the Kimbers?  Somebody with far more audio experience and electrical understanding will need to explain how any speaker cable can shut down an amp.  From the perspective of someone not very knowledgeable on these things it seems a bit convenient for an amp manufacturer to blame cables...anything but the amp, right?  
Some amps have problems with some speaker cables.I know ribbon cables such as Goertz are notorious for causing problems with amps unless a Zobel network is put to use.I'm no electrician and will end up explaining it backwards and wrong:)
It's possible that the amp was not happy with the rather high capacitance of Kimber 12tc (494 pf/meter), especially if the cable is particularly long.

Presumably the high capacitance of that cable is a consequence of its low inductance (0.09 uH/meter) having been given a higher priority in its design.  But IMO inductance that low is overkill in most applications, and with solid state amps I would avoid cables having such high capacitance per unit length, especially if the length is relatively long.

Regards,

-- Al
 
I knew someone smarter than I would explain ;-) 
Yes they are pretty long. 30ft each side.
any recs on cables . The amps are freaking good . 
Thank you 
Al,
it kept tripping the dc offset protection on the mx-r twenty . High inductance explains everything. Any recommendations on cables that would suit my need . What about cardas Cygnus .
thank you in advance 
I would definitely recommend NOT choosing Cardas Cygnus. While electrical parameters don't appear to be provided for it at the Cardas website, its design is stated to be "based on our flagship Clear & Clear Beyond conductors." Those cables, in turn, have capacitances that are much higher than the 494 pf/meter capacitance of the Kimber 12TC which apparently caused your amp to have the problem.

In your post just above, btw, "high inductance" should have been "high capacitance." As in the case of Goertz cables that were mentioned by Jtcf earlier, high capacitance has been known to cause some solid state amps to oscillate at RF frequencies, even resulting in damage in some cases. And the 30 foot length of your Kimber 12TC brings its total capacitance to an amount that is comparable to the capacitances of Goertz cables at more typical lengths.

I have no experience with Ayre equipment, or with the Blade or other KEF speakers, so all I can suggest is that you research the Virtual Systems section here and see what others are using with those products. And given the 30 foot length I would suggest ruling out any cable having a capacitance of more than say 50 pf/foot, which is about 1/3 of the capacitance of the Kimber.

And if the capacitance of a cable you are considering is not specified, I would contact the manufacturer and ask.  And if the manufacturer can't or won't provide that information I would look elsewhere.

Good luck. Regards,

-- Al
 
Thanks Al
the problem is the 30 ft length . That’s super long . John Atkinson reviewed it with cardas clear cable in his review on stereophile 
The Kimber cables you have are not up to the standards of your system anyway.
I would look to Audioquest cables. 
You don't mention the speakers, but AQ work well with my MX-R and Vandy speakers.
Bob
Gdnrbob,

No. what works on Vandys does not work on Blades.

The Blades are much more detailed with a greater emphasis on a clear midrange and extended top. Most Vandys sound distinctly soft on the top with a much  greater emphasis on warmth in the midrange .

The AQ cables work well with Vandy because the AQ cables tend to focus more on top end clarity, this is a horrible mismatch with Ayre which tends towards neutraility, and a pair of Kef Blades

We have done comparisions of the AQ Element series on the KEF vs the Wireworld cables and the Wireworlds sounded way better on that pairing.

Vandy/Ayre/AQ works because the speakers are very different sounding.

Each setup must work witth Synergy you can’t just substitute one item and hope that the voicing will still work.


Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Kef and Wireworld dealers
I talked with cardas , ayre, kimber  and kef .
kimber said this is a problem they have seen with many amps and that they can reconfigure their cable and custom make one with low capacitance. They told me about a carbon cable they are gonna introduce .
The  awesome guys from ayre called cardas themselves and talked to them  and explained the problem with the length and capacitance issue . Cardas recommended clear reflection internal biwired configuration 30 ft  as an ideal capacitance  load for the amp and tonal balance match for the blade 2 speaker.

Thats where I am will decide soon 
A great thank you to ayre for their customer support . If anyone wants to buy a product and know for sure you will have 💯 % support that’s ayre acoustics . Greatest company I have worked with . Gary is always available to help . 
Thanks everyone for your input and looking for more advice 
newton


I talked with cardas , ayre, kimber  and kef .
kimber said this is a problem they have seen with many amps and that they can reconfigure their cable and custom make one with low capacitance. They told me about a carbon cable they are gonna introduce .
The  awesome guys from ayre called cardas themselves and talked to them  and explained the problem with the length and capacitance issue . Cardas recommended clear reflection internal biwired configuration 30 ft  as an ideal capacitance  load for the amp and tonal balance match for the blade 2 speaker.

Thats where I am will decide soon 
A great thank you to ayre for their customer support . If anyone wants to buy a product and know for sure you will have 💯 % support that’s ayre acoustics . Greatest company I have worked with . Gary is always available to help . 
Thanks everyone for your input and looking for more advice 
newton


Cardas recommended clear reflection internal biwired configuration 30 ft as an ideal capacitance load for the amp and tonal balance match for the blade 2 speaker.... looking for more advice

Electrical parameters aren’t specified for Clear Reflection at the Cardas site, but what leads me to question that recommendation is that generally speaking I would expect a biwired cable to present approximately twice as much capacitance to the amplifier as a similar non-biwired cable. And possibly somewhat more than that in the case of an internal biwire, depending on its construction.

Although in looking at pricing for the cable at The Cable Company site it appears that while a 30 foot length of that cable will cost around $8K for a stereo pair, specifying "biwire" appears to add only $200 to the price, and that is regardless of length. Which leaves me puzzled as to what the difference is between the biwired and non-biwired versions of that cable. Or would the approximately $8K + $200 be multiplied by 2 for a stereo pair of biwired cables, bringing the total to around $16K? That doesn’t seem "clear," pun intended :-)

Regards,
-- Al
@audiotroy ,
Sorry, but I respectfully disagree.
Given the vast spectrum of AQ cables, I think judging the Element series and not the others, is a disservice to AQ.
If the KEF Blades have such an extended 'top', I would be afraid of listener fatigue after an hour or two.
@OP,
I would contact AQ and get their take on this. And, yes, they do answer the phone.
B
Thank you,
i will call audioquest And see what they recommend 
A while ago, I collected RCL values for a bunch of speaker cables. Many manufacturers don’t provide them, so mine is a short list.
All the cables had low resistance, < 0.005 ohms/ft.

The highest capacitance were the Goertz MI-2 Velocity (317 pf/ft), Audience Maestro (168 pf/ft), and Kimber 12C (151 pf/ft).

The cables with low capacitance *and* low resistance were the Belden 5000UE and 5T00UP. Both have about 0.15 uH/ft inductance and about 25 pf/ft capacitance. They are available from Blue Jeans Cable for very reasonable prices, and might be worth a try, given you have a long run. With 30 ft, I definitely would want low R, C, and L.
(I am using Kimber 4TC, but the run is only 5 ft. The 4TC runs 41 pf/ft.)

HTH
I mis-typed when I wrote: "The cables with low capacitance *and* low resistance were the Belden 5000UE and 5T00UP."  I should have said that they are the cables with low capacitance and low inductance.
I purchased cardas clear reflection internal biwired interconnects . They work fine . Amp does not shut down . Still burning them in . But am liking what I am hearing so far. Also switched all kimber cable interconnects to cardas clear and subwoofer cable to cardas Cygnus interconnect. 
I have all Ayre equipment also....with 30 ft interconnect....no problem no matter which cable I’ve tried. I found Audioquest and Wireworld to be really good, and Cardas to be the most disappointing....but they all worked. I agree that Gary and crew at Ayre are quite wonderful. ( using Vandersteen)
@stringreen . Can you tell me what you found that was disappointing about cardas and you liked about audioquest. I had quite the opposite opinion. The cardas seemed more,  for a lack of better word “romantic” to me through my stack. 

Sure....everyone has their preferences as what they like.  When I got my Ayre stuff, I also got the Ayre cables.  I was excited and fine with the system until a friend brought over a couple of Nordost that he liked.  The difference was incredible...like a different system.  The Ayre was grainy, closed in, etc.  Ayre's cables are made by Cardas....I called Cardas and ultimately got to Colleen, who suggested a different Cardas.  Eventually, I got through 3 or 4 different "levels" of Cardas, but they all had the same basic character that I couldn't live with. ....on the other hand, the Nordost was as though the tv color (or something) was set too high....cartoony.  I tried Purist - (great but rolled off in the highs...made the system sound like tubes).... Kimber, Audioquest (interesting that I liked the Wm F Lowe Signatures less than the top silvers) ...what I'm really saying is that you have to try cables in your own system to hear if you find Nirvana. That is the glory quest of this hobby.
Yes totally agree 😊. Expensive hobby and everyone around you( family and work ) thinks there is something wrong with you lol . Everyone has their eye roll 🙄. Haha 
Curious why not set your amps behind or beside your speakers and run a balanced cable from your preamp to your amps if you have a balance preamp? Yes, your amps are going to be out in the open but they’re beautiful.
I was also wondering about what @adg101 said,
Curious why not set your amps behind or beside your speakers and run a balanced cable from your preamp to your amps if you have a balance preamp? Yes, your amps are going to be out in the open but they’re beautiful.
Since you have monoblocks, you could reduce the speaker cable length to nearly zero -- and it's the speaker cables that carry a high-level, low-impedance signal to a reactive load. A long balanced interconnect of the right type will have next to no effect on the sound. Whether you like the result is another matter, but it's the path I'd be likely to take with the sort of gear you have. It could be a startling improvement.

My gear is significantly less costly, but I do use 25' balanced interconnects and short (5') speaker cables with a stereo amp. After doing an extensive comparison, 3 very experienced audiophiles (two are professionals) and I concluded that interconnects made with Mogami cable were far less colored than an "audiophile" pair with MSRP 22x as much.
@adg 
@mike_in_nc ,
Great points. I also use about 25 feet of interconnect between my preamp and amp and 6 feet to my speakers.
A system with 'true balanced' circuitry allows the interconnects to have minimal effect on sound quality.
Bob
I use Ayre as well....definitely don't recommend Cardas....so recommend Audioquest Yes, Do use balanced cables
@[email protected]_in_nc
the placement is totally for aesthetic purposes 
the sound system is my formal living room and that doesn’t permit the amps to be placed next to the speakers 
after changing the cables now they are working and sounding great .


All the interconnects are balanced