Killing sibilance distortion - VPI & Jubilee


Hello,

Along with what others have posted in the recent past, I also have a long running case of nasty distortion on sibilants with my vinyl playback. It is worse in the inner grooves.

To build on some other recent threads about this topic, I ordered a MFSL that is supposed to be a good test for mistracking. I have made a recording clip of my playback playing some of the last track on Side 2.

I have the recording on this link:

Playback Recording

If you take a look at that, we can all be on the same page with what exactly is going on.

The setup is a VPI Scoutmaster table, JMW9 sig arm, Ortofon Jubilee cartridge. The table is leveled on a Salamander Archetype rack. VTA is set with the arm parallel. VTF is set to 2.4g. Alignment is setup with the MINT arc protractor, 10x magnification. The VPI mechanical Anti-Skate is being used, with the lighter rubber washers. Azimuth is level by means of the "VPI straw trick" (a straw in a groove on the headshell).

Is there anyone that can point me in the right direction to fix that sibilance distortion you're hearing on the recording?

I've tried quite a few things, including different cartridges, and VTF, VTA and antiskate settings, but the sibilance is always there.

Here are some photos of my setup:

Cartridge Closeup

Aligning with the MINT

Thanks for reading
by Goatwuss
goatwuss

Showing 22 responses by goatwuss

Hi guys, thanks for the notes so far!!

The one thing I realized is that the photo may have been taken before the alignment was finalized! I will take another tonight and add it to the thread.
Here is a fresh picture of where the cartridge is mounted in the headshell (post alignment):

cartridge pic

Does this still look to be too far forward in the headshell?

Islandman - Thanks for the comment. As far as I can tell by eye, the cartridge looks to be perpendicular to the headshell as you describe.

I agree that the sound is pretty decent aside from the sibilance!
Hi Doug - Just saw your comment before I posted!

I had been running with the built in phono stage in my Supratek Syrah preamp, and I actually bought another phono stage specifically to further this cause and make sure that it's not a phono stage problem that I'm running into.

My 2nd phono stage now is a PS Audio GCPH. Changing the phono stage unfortunately doesn't impact the sibilance. It's the same with both.
Hello all,

First of all - thank you for spending your time and thoughts on this! I will try each recommendation that is posted on here within the next couple of days, and I will update the thread as I go along with more photos.
Hi Guys,

I am definitely on board with aligning the cantilever, and not the cartridge body. I'm going to take a picture of the cantilever sitting on the MINT's null point.

Here is what Yip at MINT has told me about the 'tractor:

1. Mounting Distance, ie pivot to spindle distance is 223mm
2. Effective Length is 240mm
3. It is Barewald Algorithm.

I checked the mounting distance with a ruler. I don't have the skills or tools to get a super accurate measurement, but it looks like it's right on at 223mm.

My first step is going to be getting some photos of setup on the MINT, and confirming the VTF.
Hi Guys, I have some updates! ;)

a) verify that you've set the correct VTF

Looks good to me: VTF

b) try using absolute minimum anti-skate.

I've actually fiddled around quite a bit with anti skate. Mike at VPI told me that the Nordost wire on the Jmw9sig shouldn't be twisted... so the 2 options are either no anti skate, or using the mechanical piece. I've tried disabling it, and also tried several placements for the rubber washers on the mechanical piece. Things seem to be better with the piece in place, but either way I am getting the sibilance.

d) re-check your spindle to pivot measurement

I went ahead and printed off that hoffman protractor. The arc matches up perfectly with the arc on the MINT, which leads me to believe that overhang is good. Axel - I measured out 17mm from the spindle, and it looks like that is right where the stylus is falling ( : So, I don't know why it looks like the cartridge is too far out... but as far as I can measure, it looks right at 17mm overhang. Maybe the headshell on the VPI arm doesn't extend very far?

Setting overhang with the MINT

Setting zenith with the MINT

It looks to me like the zenith angle looks good... aligning to the cantilever of course.

Doug - thanks for your notes re: the phono stages. Currently I am using the PS audio stage which I hope would be able to handle things! Loading at 100ohms btw.

Still on my list is to try the VPI jig again (granted, I bought the MINT because I was getting sibilance with it at the start), and to also try another cartridge (I have a Benz L2 and a Shelter 901 in house). I'd like to make sure I've nailed setup with the Jubilee before I change carts though.

Anyway, I hope I am making at least a little bit of progress!

I can make another recording at any time, but as of now, I haven't made any changes to the setup.
Axel, Doug - Thanks again for your time and thoughts.

Axel and I discussed his comments over email, and it looks like I have a little bit of tweaking to do. From the picture, azimuth does look to be a little bit off... but I think the reason for this is more than likely the angle of the photo. I do own a camera, but I am no photographer! In person, the zenith angle actually does look better than it's reflected in the picture... Just for kicks, I'll plan on re-aligning and re-testing, but based on past efforts, I don't think it will get me anywhere with regards to this issue.

Which brings me to your comments Doug - Really, my #1 priority for vinyl playback at this time, even above any audiophile goals like tonality, coherence, etc, is to get rid of the sibilance and IGD. So aside from setup, which we seem to be getting fairly close to exhausting (but I still plan on testing with the VPI jig, and also the Benz cart), I am wondering if you know of any surefire path to nail sibilance, IGD and tracking without spending a massive amount of money. I am flexible with my gear, and though it's never fun to take a loss, I am pretty detached in the sense that I just need to get this taken care of.

Obviously changing a cart is the easiest, so first off I would wonder other than the Universe, if you know of any carts that will totally kill this one thing. It's OK if it's not perfect in every other way. Granted, I bought both the Benz and the Jubilee based on some recommendations for carts that would be better trackers and matches for the Jmw9sig than the 901...

If a cart change alone isn't a surefire path to beating this, I am wondering what the next step would be. Even if I have to spend some money (might have to wait a little while) I am committed to getting there, as most of my music is on vinyl. I think I'm rambling a bit, but that's where I'm at right now.

Dcstep - This is a "real" lp, it's an Alison Kraus record ( :

Actually, I get sibilance distortion in the inner grooves on pretty much every record that I have with vocals, some worse than others, but it's usually there. I only bought this MFSL Kraus record because it's one that people are familiar with, and making a recording of that track is a good, objective way to show exactly what I'm hearing.
Hey guys,

I just wanted to give a quick update... as is visible from my "zenith" picture above, azimuth was off a bit. I fixed that last night, but I haven't listened yet. I'm going to recheck alignment also one more time on the MINT and then check to see if the sibilance distortion has improved at all. The cartridge is a hair too far to the right from being parallel in the headshell. If no improvements are made with this, the next step is to try the VPI jig, and following that, the benz cart. I'll keep the thread updated as I go.

I'll pull another recording with the benz cart, so at a minimum we'll all have an objective comparison between the 2 carts.

Dcstep - Yes, I have listened to this song in a digital format. There is no sibilance distortion on the digital recording. I will post a clip from the digital recording for comparison sake, and it does not take golden ears to hear the difference. Thanks for the contribution, however it is definitely not my vinyl setup being "clearer" with this, it is a problem that needs to somehow be fixed.

Bill - LOL love the humor. thanks for chiming in, and for the ideas exchanged via email some time ago. As you can see, I'm still trying to nail this one down. ;)
Hi,

So I had a chance to play with things a bit more last night.

First of all, here is a link to the same song coming from a digital source:

Digital Sound Clip

With this, you can hear the hard "s" sounds as they are recorded, but there is none of that scratchy distortion that I get with my vinyl playback. This is the goal!!!

I went ahead and switched to the VPI jig to setup the alignment. It's pretty tricky to get good, accurate setup pictures... but here's my best attempt:

Overhang

Notice that the cartridge is quite a bit further back in the headshell with the VPI jig.

Zenith / Azimuth

Looks pretty good to me...

So after making these setup changes, I went ahead and listened to the vinyl track again... and there was unfortunately no change to the sibilance distortion.

Here is a new recording of my vinyl playback setup now with the VPI jig:

Analog still has sibilance

So... given that I have changed alignments, and changed azimuth, yet the situation remains unchanged, is it fair to conclude that this is not setup related?
I went to a local audio dealer in Cambridge, MA yesterday to try out the Krauss record.

They are a Rega dealer, and I was kind of hoping they would have a P9 or a P7 setup, but all they had in working state was a P1 with an entry level Ortofon cartridge.

We tried the record.... it was a huge mess! Actually, quite a bit worse than my setup. The dealer went through the standard questions, "Is this your only record that does this?" "groove damage?" "maybe that's the way it was recorded?," etc. It surprises me that the two dealers I've discussed this with are not more familliar with it. Being around different turntables all day long, I would expect them to be intimately familliar with sibilance, what causes it, and ways to fix it.

I'm not sure what conclusions to draw, but assuming that the table was setup well, there was a clear difference in tracking ability between this setup and my setup. Which leads me to believe - maybe there is a table/arm/cartridge setup out there that can track this cleanly??? I hope so, and I want to find it!
Hi Doug,

Yeah. I called ahead of time and explained my situation, and I kind of assumed that he would have a better table hooked up to try this out. I guess I should have clarified that up front. Either way though, we can now cross a P1/cheap ortofon cart off the list. :-)

"I'd be astonished if any Rega TT played these difficult tracks with real clarity."

Can any P5/P7/P9 owners prove Doug wrong?

"The more causes you eliminate, the more likely it becomes that TT speed instability is contributing to the problem."

I guess the way to test this out would be to pickup an SDS. I have no doubt that you are on to something, but at this point I'm a bit hesitant to put more money into the VPI before confirming that the JMW arm can step up to the plate.
New update -

I have installed the Benz L2 cartridge, and checked all setup parameters twice. VTF is set to 2.0g which is the maximum recommended VTF. I am using the Mint tractor for alignment.

Here is a recording of the Benz cart playing the same track:

Benz

As you can hear, the sibilance distortion is clearly there with the Benz cartridge.

A tougher question - other than the sibilance issues, which cartridge sounds better?
Hi Wendell,

I bought the table new with the Shelter 901 cartridge, and had it professionally setup from my dealer.

There was sibilance distortion, which is why I bought the Benz and the Ortofon carts in the first place.

After I first installed the Benz, I went back to the dealer for them to check setup since I was still getting sibilance distortion. My azimuth was off a bit and they fixed that, but other than that they said setup was spot on.

Did you take a look at the setup pictures above with the Jubilee? I believe they accurately show how I had overhang/zenith/azimuth/VTF setup, but please correct me if it is unclear. The only parameters that I don't have documented by photos are VTA (currently level, but I've tried both tail up and tail down) and anti-skate, which as documented above I've tried various arrangements.

Do you see any glaring setup issues in any of the above photos?

If it is setup related, do you think it is weird that I get the same result with 3 different cartridges, all setup several times over 2 different alignment protractors?

I have actually gone back and forth with Mike, the lead tech at VPI, quite a bit over email. He has graciously recommended that I send him my arm and Jubilee cartridge for him to test. I am going to take him up on this, and see if I can come up with any answers.
"Any dealer who does a setup and leaves it with sibilance isn't much of a dealer or setup expert."

For what it's worth, I agree... though at this stage, I am not convinced that this is setup related. I hope it is, as this means I don't need to spend lots of money to fix it!

What my experience is leading me to believe is that analog equipment, regardless of price, has its limits, and I am running into some of those limits as far as sibilance is concerned.
Hi guys,

Jaytea - Yeah, I hear it too. The vocals get harsh when they get loud. I've just kind of assumed it is related to the same issue that's causing the sibilance.

"If you have the entry level version JMW then I believe it lacks the fluid damping well that comes on higher models."

This is actually the JMW9 signature, so it does have the fluid damping.

I'm shipping off my arm, the AK album, and my Benz and Ortofon carts to Mike at VPI for testing today. I'm crossing my fingers that we can come up with some answers!
Hello,

I apologize for my delay in responding. I have made significant progress towards understanding and solving this problem.

Support from Mike at VPI was excellent, and he re-setup the arm, opting for the Benz L2 instead of the Jubilee. He also installed the 3g weight on the arm.

There is certainly less sibilance from the Benz than from the Jubilee, which you can hear in the above recordings, but unfortunately it still wasn't sounding much cleaner than my prior attempts at setting up the cartridge. Mike suggested that if I am still hearing sibilance, then it is due to the cartridge's limits. (my interpretation is the cartridge's limits in this particular tonearm).

Around this time I was also getting a suggestion via email from a member to try the Audio Technica AT33PTG, with its "micro linear needle" stylus. I picked one up, roughly dialed it in, and gave the track a play to find - it was by far the least amount of sibilance I've heard in this track.

Here is a link to it (compare to the Jubilee and the Benz links above):

Audio Technica AT33PTG playing the track

Still not perfect, but a lot better for sure. This $400 cart sounds to me as good in general as the other much more expensive ones as well. Do you hear any flaws with it? It seems that at least with this arm, price does not correspond with sibilance performance.

What I am now wondering is if a better tracking tonearm is out there, and if so, whether or not it would further get rid of the remaining sibilance distortion.
Tketcham - That is great that you've also had good results with the AT 33PTG. I would encourage everybody who is encountering sibilance to give this cartridge a try.

The main realization for me is that you can't assume that any given cartridge in any given arm will track cleanly, no matter how precise the setup is.

What turntable and arm are you using?
Hi,

Zhenya, thanks for backing me up on this! Sibilance distortion bloze :-/

To clarify about this particular track, it is a good test for distortion because it has Kraus's sharp S sounds in it, and importantly this particular track is the last on the side in the inner grooves. Tracking records in the inner grooves is MUCH harder than the outer grooves, especially with sibilants.

To clarify about what I heard with the Rega P5/RB700/Benz Ace setup, the sibilance performance was good but still not perfect. I would say it was similar to my results with the jmw9sig arm and the AT33PTG cart. Since my results with a Benz cart better than the Ace were worse than this, maybe I can infer that the RB700 arm tracks better than the JMW9? Or - maybe not, since the brand new Benz carts have a redesigned stylus (Gyger I think), and maybe this accounts for the difference?

Out of several completely different setups that I've heard with this track, I still haven't heard one with no distortion. The main thing that I've learned, and IMO the main take-away of this thread is:

Even if a given table/arm/cartridge is setup perfectly, you cannot assume the sibilance performance will be good. Dial in the setup roughly, double check it, and then listen to sibilant records. If you hear distortion, then it is the limits of the equipment, and no amount of tweaking the setup will fix it.

Tobes, the Jmw9sig has oil damping, and I've tried various levels of oil, from none, to 3/4 full, and I didn't hear any difference.

My challenge to anyone who claims their setup has no sibilance distortion, is to get this record (it's a good record if you like AK), and record and post the track. I would be very interested to hear a recording of this with no sibilance distortion (similar to the digital track that I posted above). To make the recording, all you need to do is plug your turntable into a line-in on your computer, and use the free Audacity software to record.

AK record: http://www.musicdirect.com/product/79215
Narrod - I actually posted the link at Music Direct on my last entry there. It is a double LP set called "So Long So Wrong," and this is the last track on side 2 of the first record called "Find my way back to your heart"
Hi Tobes,

Thanks for chiming in! It's good to get another opinion on here, even if it's different from mine.

To me, the sibilance distortion on the Jubilee sounds really bad regardless of system. What I've been using for the most part is my Sennheiser HD-650, plugged into Corda Aria amp, plugged into an Auzen Meridian sound card. I hear it the same way in both my 2 channel room (Gallo 3.1, Supratek pre, Wyred amp, heavily treated), and my HT room (Anthem electronics, GR Research sealed box monitors w/ ribbon tweeters)

The Benz is a bit better, and the AT much better than the Benz on the sibilance to my ears. I'm sure different ears, different systems, all plays into this, but for whatever reason sibilance distortion really bugs me.

To me, other than the sibilance, the audio quality sounds really close between the carts. I probably agree with your rankings, but to me the better sibilance handling of the AT far outweighs the other gains that the Jubilee and the Benz carts may have.

Does anyone else have any comments about the cartridge sound quality differences/rankings from these audio clips?

That is interesting that you've found the Jubilee to be your best tracking cartridge. The big variable here is the tonearm. You are using Graham arms, and I am using a JMW9sig. It is completely possible, though as of now not confirmed to me, that the whole problem could be the matching with the tonearm (or just the tonearm itself), as opposed to just the tracking capability of the cartridge. My suspicion is that the Graham arms are much better at tracking than the JMW9sig.

I also wonder if there are any top notch, high end carts that track as well as the AT33PTG. ZYX perhaps, as Doug mentions above?
I heard a Rega P5 with a Benz Ace today. Sounded really good on the sibilants... RB701 perhaps?
Hi All,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experiences once more!

Doug - a minor clarification, the AT33PTG is actually a MC cartridge. Also, can you clarify in what way you feel the recording with this cart sounds dull and slow? Frankly, other than the sibilance distortion, I strain to hear the differences between these cartridges!

JDaniel - Good to know that the XX2 is a good match with a VPI table!

Iaxelrod - What TT and arm were you using with the Windfeld? Do you find that the Koetsu is not neutral enough, or not dynamic enough?