Just updated my virtual system

Nice! How do you like the diffusors behind your speakers? A well thought out plan.

I like them a great deal.  I plan to add more to the sides, and replace the soffit traps (big burgundy) with corner traps with diffusor panels in front of them.   While the absoprtion has smoothed out the bass and lets me hear the recording it's sounding too antiseptic.  It sounds like I'm wearing headphones instead of listening to a stereo system so I'll gradually shift over.

Because I'm doing a combined HT/music system though I do wonder if the HT part likes a dryer sounding room than music.

Definitely a balancing act with HT/2 channel in same room. You’re right about HT favoring a bit more absorption. Really helps with dialog and separation when thinks get busy in all channels. But it can be done, and done quite well. Listening to a well treated room at first is completely different experience and takes a while to get used to. But once you start hearing those bass notes, texture, seperation, and details it is hard to go back. But play around with the treatment and see what you like. Each room is very unique. What works in one may not work in another. I think acoustics is almost as fun as the electronics.

In case you are wondering how it sounds, here's a related thread:

Does the rack make my DAC seem too small? 🤣

No DAC shaming:-)

Very nice, man. Lots to like here. What do you use as digital music sources? I'm wondering how connected your HT and HiFi are. 

@erik_squires i have been planning to purchase the soffit bass traps for the front wall only, I don’t have space in the corners of the rear wall. I was planning on the soffit as from everything I’ve read and been told, to really help with bass the traps have to be as thick as possible. It’s that reason I discounted the tri-traps for this job.

Reading you are planning to replace them with tri-traps, could you tell me what it is you currently don’t like for your 2 channel listening that you hope the tri-traps will bring? Sadly we can’t demo acoustics panels so I’d rather not make a mistake with the purchase as the soffit traps are their most expensive! Thanks.

Looking good.

Probably sounding pretty good, too.

;)

What do you use as digital music sources?

@classdstreamer Quboz and Tidal. I thought they both pretty much had the same library but they really don’t. I also have about 300GiB of my personal music library most of which is ripped from CD’s I long ago donated to a library.

I do have a few DSD files downloaded from Blue Coast Records. (that's a deliberate plug!)

I’m wondering how connected your HT and HiFi are.

The LG provides all of my streaming needs, which are pretty basic. Netflix, Amazon and Funimation. I used to use a Roku because of the Crunchyroll app but the are so unreliable I refuse to pay them a cent more.

The TV to MRX connection is via the HDMI Audio Return Channel. When I spin a BD or DVD it goes through the MRX to the TV.

The MRX has 7.2 preamp outputs. I use the L and R outputs to feed the amp in on the Luxman. When I want to watch TV I hit "Separate" on the Luxman remote and then the TV remote takes over for everything. When I’m listening to music I hit "Separate" again to reconnect the preamp to the amp in the Luxman and I’m in 2-channel mode.

The MRX powers my center and surround speakers, and feeds my subwoofer.  The sub is not used for stereo.  See the article above for why.

@erik_squires 

Nice first approach. Be ready to make some adjustments as you go. My personal experience with GIK is they pushed too much absorption for my house of stereo design. It obviously was great at taking care of resonance, but it took me about a year to balance it with many diffusers to finally get the liveliness I had lost and wanted. Take a peak at my system where I describe the experience and square footage of absorbers vs. diffusers used. Enjoy the journey.

Reading you are planning to replace them with tri-traps, could you tell me what it is you currently don’t like for your 2 channel listening that you hope the tri-traps will bring? Sadly we can’t demo acoustics panels so I’d rather not make a mistake with the purchase as the soffit traps are their most expensive! Thanks.

@pabs85 Alone, the soffit traps are simply excellent.  If you read the blog post I wrote about using EQ with my stereo you'll see that I start from an extremely smooth starting point.  I'm moving away from them only as a matter of overall room balance. 

However, as @baylinor has experienced, having a good mix of absorption and diffusors is important.  In the long term I'm going to trade my 2 soffit traps for 4 corner traps which will be floor to ceiling.  The two on the floor will have diffusor panels which AFAIK are not available on the soffit traps.  Also, I'm switching from burgundy to white to make them seem less huge.

@baylinor  GIK actually recommended more diffusor panels, but they block my side windows.  They also recommended diffusor panels behind my couch, so in my case their recommendations were reasonably well balanced I think.  I'm just

@baylinor , IMHE not enough absorption is used by many. People are use to the bright glare caused by higher frequency reflections. When you remove them the first impression you get is that the system sounds dull. Which at first disappoints until you listen more carefully to the image. The instruments, particularly cymbals are much better contained and have a more solid image in space. I think the problem for many of us is that we do not have enough late reflections because we are using smaller closed rooms.  Larger rooms that are open to the rest of the house usually sound better to me al least. If GIK over does it it is probably because they do not factor in the dispersion of the speaker as they can be hugely different and many do not require as much as they recommend. 

@erik_squires , Good work with the crossovers! I might make one suggestion. Stuff the drawers in your speaker stands where the crossovers are located with a folded bath towel nice and tight. Cavities resonate. Putting one right under the speaker could be a problem and make sure the drawers/crossovers do not rattle. Do the towel and let me know what you think. -Mike

@mijostyn  Those stands are inert.  The speakers are heavier than they look.  There's no drawer rattling. :)

The problem with the "diffusers" that are basically some cut out flat material placed on top of absorbers is they do a lot less diffusing than absorbing. They do look great but to properly diffuse you need to have diffusers that actually have multiple elements protruding out without any absorbers behind it. Just my opinion.

@erik_squires 

Of course you have many more windows than I do. I only have two 2' x 3' triple glass pane 4" thick so the sound of our rooms would be drastically different regardless of treatment. Maybe you will be fully satisfied as designed. That was my hope :)

They do look great but to properly diffuse you need to have diffusers that actually have multiple elements protruding out without any absorbers behind it. Just my opinion.

@baylinor 

Well, depends on what you mean by "proper".

The effectiveness of these is limited by the depth of the material.  I consider them to be high-value, for what they cost and where they fit, but I expect deeper, bigger, much more expensive panels if properly designed would provide even better performance.

Thanks @erik_squires I have read the blog and it’s very informative. I’d be really interested in reading your update when you get the tri-traps in, this kind of first hand experience from people who know what they’re doing is invaluable.

@pabs85 It will be a slow process. Right now my corners I have 2x soffit traps (total) and stand up panels above that. When the first round of tri-traps come in they will replace the top panels. According to the specs this will give me better bass absorption than the stand up panels but not quite as good as the soffit traps.

It will be a while before I replace the soffit traps underneath them. I just spent quite a bit on the HT receiver, rack and the GIK panels I should be getting net month so I’m out of funding unless GIK or Luxman decides to sponsor me. :)

TBC: What makes the soffit traps exceptional is the broad band performance under 80 Hz given their relative small size.  The tri-traps are no slouches either.

In addition to the soffit traps I also have the combination diffusor/mondo traps you see behind hte speaker, and another pair of mondo traps on the floor behind hte rack.

Maybe this will help frame my conversion a little:

I’ve had the soffit traps for a very long time, but I’ve been steadily adding mondo traps after I bought this house. So I went from relying almost completely on the soffit traps, which are great, to spreading the love around.

Now that my room is nearing completion, I am thinking that a combination unit in their place, with additional absorption thanks to the stacked up tri-traps will move things in the right direction from where it is now.

If you have nothing and know you need bass traps, the soffits are phenomenal but the tri-traps give me the option to add a little more diffusion surface whcih I know I need.

This isn't so much about product quality but total balance. I can't tell you how much they improved the sound of my speakers in a room and how much bigger my speakers sound thanks to them. 

Great, I’m at the first phase of adding traps and that won’t be for a while as, similarly, I’ve had a large outlay on system upgrades. So I’ll stick to soffits and add first reflection points as well.

@erik_squires , it is not a matter of being "inert." It looks like you have placed the crossovers in the drawers, the cavity under the loudspeakers. Correct me if I am wrong. It is the cavity that is the problem. Cavities resonate. If you stuff the cavity full with some dense material you no longer have a resonating cavity. Drummers do this all the time when they stuff a blanket into their bass drum.

We have the same rack. Butcherblock makes some nice stuff.

conformal coat dip the crossovers, Wondercoat…if ya can find any..

Nice room, good work balancing act :-)

best to you

Jim

Erik:

Can you add a link to your blog on your profile?

Had it on favorites, but lost it when some Apple genius "fixed" our iMac.

Thought your main DIY speakers were MTM based, but perhaps confusing you with someone else.

DeKay

Hey @dekay 

Maybe you are confusing AMT with MTM? 🤣

With the utmost respect for Dr. D'Appolito, no, my only MTM-like speaker is my center channel.

@ozzy62 They sure do!  I first saw them at a show in Oakland, CA and they made such an impression on me I've been waiting about 3 years to finally spring for one.

Yes, I saw the center channel in your pic.

How about a link to your blog, and also what cables are you using (DIY?)?

I'll be experimenting with Canare 4S11 as speaker cable for a mini system to listen to while @ the computer (first time I've tried stranded wire in the past 20 years, or so).

Had hoped to use screw down banana plugs for convenience (even though I prefer bare ends) but can't find the ones I purchased from Percy years ago, so bare ends it is.

Good thing you moved from LA as the weather here has been unbearable lately (ranging from the mid 60's to the mid/upper 70's;-).

DeKay

https://speakermakersjourney.blogspot.com/

The screw down banana’s are really helpful for the HT receiver which really won’t be happy with anything else. For my speaker cables I used these for the amp to crossover:

Then a combination of WBT (great) and Furutech (meh!) locking bananas to the speaker drivers.

Our weather here has been pretty good. Being on the coast we actually get temperature buffering from the ocean climate, so nothing nearly as bad as say Ohio or New York this year, but we were in the high 80’s with humidity already.

The line level cables are detailed out in the system page. All custom with components from PartsConnexion.com

The spades you linked would be fine for this setup (plus they come with shrink wraps), thanks.

Recently started a pen/paper list of links and passwords as this is not the first time we have lost computer stored data.

Next project (after the mini system) is recycling the 5,000, or so, Amazon shipping boxes that have accumulated over the past 2 years.

DeKay

@dekay  I strongly suggest you use an online password manager.  It helps me go from phone to laptop to PC, and use secure passwords everywhere.

The only time it's a bit of a hassle is when signing in on my TV for Netflix, etc. 

@erik_squires ,

 I really like that butcher block stand! I might have to start saving for my next birthday present to myself.😁

All the best.

JD

@erik_squires You gave me the push I need to pick up a Tidal sub. Tying Tidal into Roon immediately filled out more of the music library I've been missing when using Qobuz only. I've been wanting to consolidate my subscriptions, but instead, they're expanding. For now, I have Youtube, Spotify, Roon, Qobuz, and now Tidal. Playing with Roon over the last couple months has been interesting, but unless I can find a must-have feature, I might see if I can consolidate the last 3 or 4 subs into just Apple Music. The downside to Roon is being tied to a Roon Core. But I may keep Roon if one of the following pans out: (1) I get into music ownership, (2) if my local server sounds significantly better than a cloud server, (3) or if I get into upsampling. Maybe a fourth option is discovering that I can download music in Roon, and that playing back the downloaded music sounds better than streaming from the cloud. 

I'll check out Blue Coast Records. I haven't gotten into labels, or producers, or formats yet. 

It sounds like you use the LG TV as your streamer for video and music. That's interesting. I figured that with your setup, you would have had a dedicated music streamer. I can make a couple recommendations. (1) I put an AQ power cable on my TV. That power cable made a stupid big improvement on the picture quality. In your case, a TV PC upgrade may improve the audio too. (2) It used to be the case that the streamers built into TV's didn't age well--probably a combination of a handful of things like TV manufacturers ceasing to update the software after a year or two, the streaming hardware being cheap to begin with so that the TV meets a certain price point, and the major streaming services prioritizing major streamer apps over TV's apps. I've tried the major streamers over the years, and my current favorites are the Chromecast with Google TV and the Nvidia Shield TV (Pro). I believe the CC has the best streaming UI on the market, and the Nvidia Shield is snappier because of its more powerful hardware, it has AI 4k upscaling, and it boasts the latest video and audio standards from the streaming services. If your TV streamer ever feels sluggish or unpolished, you can keep the TV panel and keep the software experience separate. 

It sounds like you use the LG TV as your streamer for video and music.

@classdstreamer That is absolutely not correct. The TV only does the video streaming.

I figured that with your setup, you would have had a dedicated music streamer.

As I wrote elsewhere, I use Roon and there’s a Raspberry Pi 4 in a fanless case acting as a Roon endpoing which is off-camera. There’s a USB connection from there to the Mytek Brooklyn.

The Anthem HT receiver has built in Chromecast but I never use it.

There’s a point I wanted to make about having a dedicated audiophile streamer for audio.

I don’t like them for a number of reasons

• Cost
• Reliability
• Lack of continuous improvement / upgrades will eventually end
• Vendor lock-in on hardware, UI and even the music library

I’ve been using Roon with a mini x86 server as the core and Raspberry Pi 4 as the end point. I’ve never had the need to shut them down and call a dealer or even reset them. My mini PC is about 12 years old, so the fan on the power supply started giving out. $79 later and I got a replacement. While replacing it I accidentally shorted the disk drive (with an actual spinner inside) which was also at least that old. $89 for 1 TB. Imagine any streamer charging less than a grand for a 1TB internal disk. 🤣. Reinstall Linux, install Roon, restore my music from back up, which took the longest amount of time, and bam. I’m back.

My subscription to Roon ensures that the software is constantly upgraded and keeps up with the latest audio formats and services (well, except Amazon music). Using Ubuntu LTS ensures that I get the latest OS and security patches until 2025.

Honestly I trust Roon will be around for at least a decade.  I don't trust any of the streamer vendors to be around that long, to constantly improve the feature and service set or to ensure my current hardware is compatible with the next release.  It's nearly impossible for a hardware vendor to put the same kind of effort into their software as Roon can.  Also, I really like Roon.

I suppose if I put together a mini PC Roon core and Pi 4 again I’d probably be out $600 vs. say $3k minimum for commercial offerings. Sorry that’s a jump I can’t make. Partly the DIY in me and partly the frugal.

I am however looking for a DAC with built in Roon endpoint. Not core. I’m tempted by the Mytek Manhattan II as well as the Bricasti but have heard neither so far.

PC + Raspberry Pi 4 + Roon as server, streamer, and library management software. Gotcha. 

I resonate with your argument against the business model of HiFi streamer manufactures. As soon as we introduce software into hardware, its shelf-life diminishes. AVR's are a good case in point. Since 2015, video standards have quickly evolved from 1080p to 4k, then HDR, and now we have forking HDR standards of HDR 10 and Dolby Vision, and recently 4k at 120Hz became a thing. Just like the audio chain, to have the video features you want, every piece in the video chain has to be compatible: video streamer, HDMI cables, AVR, and TV. If one of those is behind, you lack some feature. For now, I'm content with 4k 60Hz, base level HDR, and chroma subsampling of 4:2:0. It's not the latest and greatest, but it's good enough for the major streaming services. Plus, being on the cutting edge is costly.  

Besides the points you made, I would point to their revenue model as the culprit: one-off streamer sales are not likely to support continuous software development. When sharing my iFi Zen Stream ($400) streamer with other audio folks, the biggest criticism was the lack of amazing library management software. That is, consumers seem to want convenience, high quality, and a low price--in business, it's usually a pick two of the three. 

If I do stick with Roon (plus Qobuz and Tidal) instead of Apple Music, I'll put together a server that I leave always on. Having to walk to another room and boot up my main computer just to listen to music isn't convenient enough. And if I go with a NAS, I might be able to also store and stream movies too, which is a lot cheaper than Kaleidescape. But I have to see if Plex and Roon can be used together. 

@erik_squires
How do you feel about the idea of purpose built streamer hardware? I think they are worth considering, and enough audio folks say that the SQ does improve with purpose built streamers. Is your position that nothing upstream from the DAC makes enough of a difference to justify the cost? I haven’t yet compared the Zen Stream to a Raspberry Pi, but that could be interesting.

On another note, how do you feel about combining video and audio streamers? My understanding is that the consensus with audio folks with combined HT and stereo systems is to at least bypass the HT preamp when listening to stereo music. But you went a step further with a HiFi DAC too.

With your current setup, combining the A/V streamer only looks possible via toslink--either out of the TV directly or out of the receiver to your DAC. But toslink won’t work for you since you have DSD files.

Another option for combining A&V streamers, might be with an Nvidia Shield TV Pro. Based on this forum page, it looks like the Shield now supports audio out from its USB port. I use an Nvidia Shield TV Pro in my home theater room, and I know that the Shield does show up in Roon as a possible end point, but I haven’t tried to send audio out from the Shield’s USB since my stereo system is in a different room. And, as far as hardware going obsolete, Nvidia has kept it’s Shield TV streamers relevant for a surprisingly long time. Last I checked, Nvidia is still supporting its 2015, 2017, and 2019 Shield versions. Finally, as an AI company, Nvidia may delve into AI audio upsampling one day if enough users identify the use case to the company.  

How do you feel about the idea of purpose built streamer hardware?

Well, as I wrote the issue is one of a combination of frugality and DIY.  If I didn't work with Linux every day anyway putting together my own streamer probably wouldn't be such an obvious answer.  I have also had a Logitech Squeezebox touch for a long time and it's been great.  Nothing else since has the combination of high performance, low cost, ease of use, and aesthetically attractive features.  I think it's that I am stuck in that kind of price envelope.  When the Squeezebox touch came out I was rooting for a new era of streaming music that was < $1,000. 

I think they are worth considering, and enough audio folks say that the SQ does improve with purpose built streamers. Is your position that nothing upstream from the DAC makes enough of a difference to justify the cost?

My position is that I don't want to pay $3,000 or more for something that is a glorified Logitech Squeezebox, and have a tough time jumping into a closed ecosystem. Oh, almost forgot.  Some streamers are iPhone only.  I'm Android only as my Lord Orisirs intended.

With your current setup, combining the A/V streamer only looks possible via toslink--either out of the TV directly or out of the receiver to your DAC. But toslink won’t work for you since you have DSD files.

Honestly haven't thought that far ahead for integration.  I mean, why would I want to combine them? Different usage patterns and UIs.  If I was going to do that I'd combine my AVR and stereo integrated, and I'm absolutely not doing that.  Why?  Because I love the stereo sound.  I also want the full modern 4k / DTS / Dolby decoding features including Dolby Vision and HDR.