Jupiter Copper Foil, Paper & Wax Cap Versus Jensen Cap 0.10uF 630Vdc Copper Foil Ceramic


Greetings,
Your advice and comments would be most helpful and appreciated.
I will need to change my current capacitors in my tube power amp as one of my current Jensen 0.1uF 630V Copper Foil, PIO, Aluminium is now a problem - caused a EL34 tube heater to glow red. I will need four new capacitors.

I am considering two possible replacements:

1. 0.1uF 600Vdc Jupiter Copper Foil, Paper & Wax Capacitor   
2. Jensen Capacitor 0.1uF 630Vdc Copper Foil Ceramic Case 

Any comments on how these compare in their sound characteristics?
I would like a cap that offers balance across all frequencies, control, richness, enticing tone, and transparency. Also ease of flow of the music.    
Thanks so much, Bob 

marish200
the Jupiter copper foil is an addictive sound! Big soundstage and fast! I have not heard the Jensen. 
Jupiter is the far better choice ...... if you want more inner detail, richness and spot-on tone.  The Jensen cap is very good, but not as neural top to bottom with an obvious darkening and thickening of the sound  
@marish200   What you experienced is why we don't use paper and oil coupling capacitors in our products. They sound great but we've seen a good number of paper and oil caps develop a slight amount of electrical leakage (which is to say they can develop enough resistance that they don't entirely block all the DC that they are supposed to), which can mess with the bias on the output section- and cause the symptom you describe.

A capacitor that can do the same job of musical delivery is the copper foil V-Cap Teflon. No electrical leakage over time- very reliable.
I would love to hear comparisons with the Audyn TC. A relative bargain!
Bob,

Have used both Jupiter and Jensen in a number of my own amps and amps I have upgraded for friends.

would agree with jmolsberg, the Jupiter copper caps are really good souning caps; very organic sounding.

The Jensens are very similar, maybe a tad less organic, but the aluminum case is a plus.

but before you buy either, would suggest you take a look at the cap that caused your tube to fail. if the amp runs hot and there is not enough ventilation, the Jupiter and Jensen caps do not do well in a hot environment.

in one of the amps I upgraded with copper foil and wax caps, an output tube also redplated. The owner brought it back. Popped the bottom cover off and found the wax had melted and dripped out of the cap, and ran through the ventilation slots on the bottom cover. Must have made a mess on the surface the amp was sitting on.
Likely failure is the the cap eventually passed DC, or became electrically leaky.

In that hot running amp, put in the Jupiter Vintage Tone caps. Not as nice sounding as the coppers, but much more robust for hot amp applications. 




I have the Jensen copper foil/oil caps in one of my preamps. Should they need replacement I would probably go to Soviet Teflon if I had the real estate to do it. No experience with the Jupiters but there is lots of praise for them.
I have never had an issue with Jupiter copper foils leaking or breaking down in any way over the years.  I have with Duelund and Jensen however.  Jupiter is richer sounding than Vcaps with better meat on the bones weight and body. Vcaps are more resolving and sharper leading edges. However this resolution comes with a slightly thinner sound.  
@johnss @atmasphere @grannyring
Thank you All for your comments and suggestions. I really appreciate it.
I am also considering the Mundorf Supreme Silver Gold Oil capacitor 0.10uF 1000V ,
Has anyone experienced the Mundorf’s? The Dielectric is Polypropylene.
There own Mundorf description says, "These unique characteristics offer a capacitor type of equally unique musicality: finely nuanced and lively shining acoustic colours, which combine into a breathtaking, beautiful, live-like music experience with the utmost precision, presence and three-dimensional plasticity."

Does the higher voltage rating improve/change the sound compared to the 630Vdc of the Jensen that I am replacing?

Thc so much, Bob
I think you shiuld absolutely try the Mundorfs, because you will fall in love or grow tired of them quickly. 😀
LErik is so right. Try them. For me and others they are just too forced and tilted up in the presence area. My ears could not relax with them. Others love them. If you like tilted up upper mids and highs and the perception of uber detail, then you may like these. Perhaps your system could use this presence area boost? Perhaps not? You know your current sound and what you are looking for sonically.
"Jupiter is richer sounding than Vcaps with better meat on the bones weight and body. Vcaps are more resolving and sharper leading edges. However this resolution comes with a slightly thinner sound."

I don't agree with this statement.  The Jupiter Oil Caps are way more open with much better detail in my opinion and are a better build quality again my opinion.  The Jupiter copper foil had too much emphasis on the mid-range so it gave the impression of a thicker sound more musical sound at first but the V-Cap oil was a much better all around sound.  The V-Cap copper is a level above all of the others.  I did not like the V-Cap Teflon at all.  Just not to my liking.

How did I base my opinion - I build DACs, preamps and phono stage components.  I can compare the different caps in each component since I build multiple units and compare directly by swapping them out.  No need to swap out the capacitors, just switch the units. Plus other people also hear them as I change the units and they all prefer the V-Caps.

Good luck and Happy Listening.
The Jupiter Oil Caps are way more open with much better detail in my opinion and are a better build quality again my opinion.
Thank you @bigkidz for your comments. Sorry if I am a little confused about your statement. Which Jupiter Oil caps do you mean? Are they still in production or do you mean ’bees wax’? e.g. Jupiter copper foil wax & paper.
https://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/jupiter_copper_foil_in_wax.html

"The Jupiter copper foil had too much emphasis on the mid-range so it gave the impression of a thicker sound more musical sound at first"
Are you meaning the The Jupiter copper foil wax & paper are thicker sound in the mid-range?
Thx , Bob







@bigkidz

I used the Jupiter caps in varied positions in all kinds of gear (crossovers to amps) so my comments are based on use beyond one or two products. I must have upgraded and modified at least 30 DIFFERENT audio pieces with this cap...perhaps more. With all things audio the end result is often gear and system dependent. No doubt in your two pieces, your particular design and flavor, that was your experience.

However, the Jupiter copper foil cap is wonderfully balanced top to bottom with no part of the sound spectrum emphasized. This is evident when used across a wide spectrum of gear, not just one line. This is also consistent with a plethora of professional and manufacturer reviews including Humble.

As always these caps need over 200 hours of break in before judging. This is especially true of Jupiter and Vcaps.

@grannyring 

Thanks Bill but my partner and I repair/rebuild 5 to 10 components each month for many years now.  Counterpoint we have done every preamp design that they have, Counterpoint phono stages,and Counterpoint power amps, Melos preamps and power amps, EAR, ARC, CJ, DeHaveland (spelling), Audible Illusions, Supratek, Coincident, Dude (Pat changed the caps out with V-Cap Copper), Berkeley, Musical Fidelity, Hovland, Graaf, Peach Tree, VAC, Blue Circle, MAC, Sim Audio, Lamm, Wyteck, HK, Pass, Sony Techniques, Kenwood, Rowland, Levinson, Marantz, Rogue, Jadis, Naim, Denon, BAT, Luxman, Channel Islands, Krell, First Watt, Linn, Cary, Hafler, VTL, CEC, Wadia, Metronome, Audiomeca, Museatex, EMM Labs, Theta, Adcom, Spectral, Bryston, B&K, and many more.  While we have not put in better caps in everyone of these components, we have done comparisons in many.  Since I have many values of both caps laying around especially the Jupiters, we have been able to let the owner of the gear we repair/upgrade choose what sound they prefer.  So far the V-Cap was the cap selected.  Even GT Audio the speaker manufacturer in New Jersey that has used my DAC for the audio shows, changed to V-Caps over the Jupiter capacitors in their X-overs with the same results, much bigger soundstage, detail, etc.  They noted the same impact on the sound comparing the two capacitors.


Now I am not saying that everyone will have the same results, that would be dumb on my part, but so far, this is what my experience has provided.  Did you use the oil, copper or the Teflon V-capacitors?  I did not like the sound of the teflon as I already stated above.



@marish200 - copper foil Jupiter capacitors.  I did not like the bees wax ones at all except in amps and preamps.  The higher uF can also make a difference.


Also, we did modify an amp a few years back and the Jupiter caps failed.  Jupiter replaced them at no charge and if my memory is correct, they had a production change.  I am not saying that they are bad capacitors, I think they are excellent, I just prefer the V-Caps once broken in.  You have to try and decide for yourself though.

Happy Listening.

I used the Vcaps copper ones and very pricy.  Very long run in period.  They were simply too thin sounding to me, but very resolving for sure. I also like the HT Jupiter capacitor in beeswax. Nice tone and very organic sounding. Not as much air and inner detail as the copper foils, but good for sure and less money. 

I suppose one’s sonic priorities and tastes are at play here. I am not a detail guy. I am more of a tone and body guy. 
@bigkidz @grannyring 
Thank you both for your comments and the detailing your experiences. Its most helpful to me. 
Bob
Do a good metalized film cap like the Mundorf or something. They're basically indestructible and will outlast you. 
I put Jupiter VT 8uF to LPF crossover.
The break-in period of large capacitors takers a lot of time.
I burned it in cable burner for 3 days fist. But after that it sounded very dull.
Then, I burned it other 6 days. Now it sounds much better.
But I steel anticipate much more transparent and vivid sound.
@grannyring , can you enplane, how is the sound of Jupiter capacitors changing during burn-in?
People without patience (like me) can do wrong decisions...

Regards,
Alex.
I never tried Teflon capacitors.
But I tried a lot of different polypropylene from different producers meta-lased, film and foil.
All of them sound bad for my test. Synthetic, flat tonality, not natural, not musica,l not smooth not organic,...
I wold prefer any paper in oil type capacitor to any polypropylene capacitor.

Regards,
Alex.
Ido a lot of modding ,especially the last 10 years. I make Zobel Clarifiers 
for Loudspeakers as Well as  rebuild Xovers .yes the Jupiter Copper foil are-excellent But The Jensen Copper foil oiled paper come in 4 case types 
which all sound different .the CopperBody has more life and to me better natural prat then the paper body model, the ceramic has body but a bit more nuetral.
the Copper body Jensen is a bit richer then the Jupiter, a bit better depth of soundfield  all these caps take a solid 300 hours to fully open up.
there are always other factors,even inductor type ,I like Jantzen Copperfoil waxed paper, and their open core for Bass,not over priced and close to Duelund in Quality.and make can make a difference ,same goes for resistors ,ovoid all cheap mox type,and cement resistors. 
Thank you @audioman58 
I have settled on the Jensen Copper PIO ceramic body. I have have them installed and I agree that they are quite neutral. The midrange and bass are pronounced. I would like more of the high frequencies - as the caps get played in, should I expect to get more high frequencies?
My tech also changed another cap in the signal from a British cap (don't know the make) to a blackgate. I am wondering if the blackgate has somehow reduced the high frequencies. My tech said he thought that the blackgate would provide a more overall even/balanced sound. I can always change it back to the British cap.
@audioman58 Do you think blackgates 'open up' more in the high frequencies as they play in? Or is their characteristic one of less 'highs' and more 'lows'?

Thanks so much any comment you may offer.

Bob



@alexberger
I decided the OIP was a better choice especially due to my analogue ’all tube system’.
Bob
Marish2000 the black gate were excellent caps they are a electrolytic more for power supplies ,ask your tech where it is.
No electrolytic cap should  be in the signal path, but it is a great cap for power supplies. On your Jensen how many hours in it they need a minimum  of 200 hours to really start to open up 300 hours 
better still.
Yes the Jensens are darker than the Jupiter copper foil as pointed out. They will open up a tad, but won’t deliver in the highs as extended and sweet as the Jupiter. They have the personality you are currently hearing even after burn in. They are known to be a tad rolled off and very “polite” in the highs. I also find them thicker in the upper mids. 
The Jensen Copper foil, copper body I like the best of the bunch 
in my system even more deep soundstage and more organic sounding then the Jupiter Foil,I my 2 systems I have had the same results, since I do mods I have the exact values and 300 hours on them and once in the system 4 hours of play
time then play 8-10 songs you know well.
i always have at least 2 others to listen and help-evaluate.
in another system it could prove slightly different in Audio
nothing is set in stone. 
@audioman58
@grannyring
Thank you.
Do you have any experience or thoughts on whether the Jensen PIO Copper Foil Copper Body would deliver more high frequencies - extended highs -than the ceramic body?
Thx, Bob
I have had all Jensen caps the ceramic body is  very open and detailed themost 
neutral of the Jensen Copper foil caps. The Copper body in my opinion sounds the Most natural  with a very extended but richer upper end.great for Solid state equipment  the ceramic you may or may not likebetter 
In a tube circuit.
My experience is the Jensen’s, in tube gear and dacs, are just darker than the Jupiter or Duelund copper foil caps. I also modify and upgrade gear for a living and do all manner of upgrades with caps. Jensen are good caps, but not as good in the micro details, resolving , and air as the Jupiter copper foil or Duelund. These areas seem to reflect the sonic need of the OP so I am specifically talking about this “presence” area of the spectrum. . Vcaps copper are also more extended and resolving.

A good option, keeping what you now have, is to bypass your Jensen with the Duelund pure silver .01uf bypass cap from Parts Connextion. I have had great results with this combo in electronics. You will definitely get more air, sparkle and resolution. More realism! 


@grannyring 
@audioman58 
Thank you both for your comments and advice. That's a very interesting comment re: bypassing with a Duelund -01 bypass cap.
Thank you, Bob 
Granny ring I agree ,I use the Duelunds as my main best seller in my Loudspeaker Clarifiers a bit pricy $100 each but ,give them a solid 200 hours and they truly do open up the soundstage and micro-details
@grannyring 
@audioman58 

Yes, I definately would like tom add the chararcteristics of the Duelunds a the Jensen are 'dark' and I am missing the higher and extended frequencies that i enjoy. 
The bypass caps are still $100 each and I am wondering whether to just go the whole hog and purchase the Duelund Capacitor 0.1uF 630Vdc CAST-PIO-Cu (Sn).

How close would the Jensen plus Duelund combination come to sounding as good as the Duelund Capacitor 0.1uF 630Vdc CAST-PIO-Cu (Sn)? I think this is where my final decision lies.

Thx, Bob


The added $100s extra for a .01 cast is not worth it the value is 
so small , thst is why the Duelund .01 ur Bypass cap is used 
if you wanted a Big difference then justget the wallet out 
what size is the tweeter capacitor 2-3uf  ? If so over $ 1k for 2 cast caps . The Duelund Bypass caps I hav3 in my speaker well worth the extra $$, and for the record just look st my feedback 
on the Duelund Zobel  Clarifiers I Make ,they work cleaning up all high frequency noise and work with Any Speaker, a simple 
but very effective upgrade. Unless you have tried these you can’t 
make a educated statement .To a true Audiophile even a few % is well worth a small purchase.
The bypass caps are still $100 each and I am wondering whether to just go the whole hog and purchase the Duelund Capacitor 0.1uF 630Vdc CAST-PIO-Cu (Sn).

How close would the Jensen plus Duelund combination come to sounding as good as the Duelund Capacitor 0.1uF 630Vdc CAST-PIO-Cu (Sn)? I think this is where my final decision lies.
Again, keep in mind that if used as a coupling cap, the bias on the power tubes may be affected if either cap develops an electrical leakage. The result could be shortened power tube life, but it could also result in a damaged power transformer.
Very rare any quality cap leaks I have used Jensen’s at least 80 over the last 4 years not One has failed back in 2010 they had some issues that was due to sealing the ends ,now they use a heavy solder seal,then. A vacuum silicone on the ends . The oil caps i in Duelund , a Jensen and the excellent New caps Milflex from Poland which I just enstalled 5 .022per speaker with a larger Jensen on the mids and Loudspeaker Zobel ,and a Duelund Bypass on the end of my AMT tweeter, the have oil impregnated paper ,no a bath of oil .
and BTW I put the Superb Path Audio Resistors throughout my Loudspeaker chain ?i have been using them in builds for over 5 years Fantastic synergy
they truly transform your Loudspeakers in any position.psrts connecxion  hardly
ever has proper stock.i now order them from Nick at Hifi collective win the UK
when I owned my Audio store there I learned a ton about modding .  Milflex Copper foil poly,paper in oil caps are for the money best cap value for the buck
on par with Jupiter Copper foil but take longer to fully runin up to 500hours
just ask Jeff at Sonic Craft.