Jazz for aficionados

Inna, I know you don't realize that you responded to the "Manhattan restaurant music", but did not respond to a post that I left specifically for you.

07-14-2017 12:03pm: I left this post on that date specifically for you.

Well, I’ve been to an awful lot of Manhattan restaurants and I’ve never heard music like that in any of them. "Smooth jazz", yes, but the Connors cut is not smooth jazz; as I define it, anyway. "Mr. Cool" is not nearly as "bubble-gummy" as most of what gets passed off as "smooth jazz" and, for me, falls more in the category of "fusion", but without the abnoxious electronic excess of a lot of it. Nice funky shuffle beat on a tune with a couple of interesting twists and turns, and fast virtuosic flourishes very reminiscent of vintage Chick Corea (Return To Forever); nice playing all the way around. Connors shows a lot of restraint in his playing, especially for being the leader, and I appreciate the economy. The rest of the band is recently deceased Latin-jazz-fusion flutist Dave Valentin’s band; all excellent contemporary fusion players and very in demand studio guys. Re the recently brought up subject of bass players: if Lincoln Goines' playing doesn’t prove what a formidable influence Jaco Pastorious was in the world of electric bass I don’t know what is. My only real issue with the clip is that I think the engineer/producer got just a little bit carried away with the micing of the snare. Great snare sound; but just a little bit too big, imo.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DuwzQOP2LXA

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CPRMOZ-GITw

Frogman, I bought that same album when it came out; as I remember, "Encendido" was my favorite cut.

The Dregs have officially said they are having a reunion tour. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Slkd-jIIPjI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vULLZVpxSRE

Let's not be too literal, I meant the level. That's the reason why I listen to relatively few recordings.

Threads are meant for people to have a conversation on the same subject; so I noticed you still haven't commented on a musical post that was meant for you; why not, if you don't mind my asking?

Appreciate the comments about the Bill Connors.

To that by the ever-gracious and incisive Inna "...it’s Manhattan restaurant music.", I’ll add "and very well served, not to mention delicious."

O - Glad you noted the piano. On a number of tracks, I was struck by the quality of solos on that instrument (Bill O’Connell the pianist as credited in the All About Jazz writeup).

https://www.allaboutjazz.com/return-bill-connors-tone-center-review-by-john-kelman.php

Frogman - In line with your comments, I thought Connors was very generous with the space allowed his sidemen.

O - About the introductory bass figure that Horace Silver enjoyed using, it’s not exactly the same thing BUT I think I hear something of a similar tendency in his Song for My Father. This one is of interest to me because as I only recently discovered (probably the last human on earth to learn about it) Fagen and Becker "borrowed" Silver’s intro virtually intact for "Rikki Don’t Lose that Number" (single from their Pretzel Logic album). On the off chance I wasn’t last, you might be amused to hear their use of it here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQjNHzaxfQc&ab_channel=SteelyDan-Topic

Want to say, in partial agreement with Inna...I don’t completely "get" Joe Zawinul. I like the first 2 Weather Report albums and admire his work as a sideman (e.g., on In a Silent Way), But later Weather Report? the more I listen to those various albums the shallower they seem to get. The Zawinul Syndicate video...mad mad percussion and rhythm talents but Z riffing over some chord changes doesn’t seem that wonderful to me. Maybe I didn’t listen into it for long enough. Apologies to any that are great fans of JZ, I do not wish to offend and don’t expect my O-pinion does anything to diminish his standing (nor would I want it to). Just expressing my "bewilderment" (too strong a word, really). OK - that’s my sermon for this Sunday.

Ghosthouse,check this album with Zawinul....

'Soulmtes' from 1963.with B.Webster
https://youtu.be/iiSX0fsE-Pg

This is one of my favorite, but Mingus's least played records. That solo by Jackie McLean on alto sax has to be one of his best ever.


        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZB6GkA54n_Q

Orpheus10, I was looking for 'words' to respond in.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxoN0zcelF0

Thanks, Alex.  I will check that out (revisit, actually).  Pretty certain someone had posted that LP a little while back.  Don't get my wrong...I'm not bashing Joe Zawinul as a musician, more like questioning his direction and "taste/style" later in his career.  

I was living at home with the folks when I bought this; that wasn't cool at all; I could really identify with this LP, "Please let me be cool".

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOKjTzW4IWM

This is the cool blues.

Thanks to Frogman's comments I started listening to different versions of "Giant Steps". Two that caught my attention, I don't remember hearing.

One awesome player I never heard of, 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHTuB6V4NGQ

And a Woody Herman I can't go without!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQdf1YhmAbU

Great clips! Jimmy Bruno sounds amazing. Talk about deserving more recognition! Killer player tearing up the changes of the tune. Thanks for the Woody Herman clip. Blast from the past for me as it was one of the very first jazz records I bought back in the late 70’s (ouch!). Woody’s band always sounded great no matter the vintage.

Coltrane’s iconic tune "Giant Steps" became a kind of proving ground for players particularly, and no surprise, tenor players; although it has been a test of all jazz instrumentalists’ true improvising mettle. Unusually demanding of a player’s control of harmony with its very fast (two per measure) changes and with unusual relationships to boot.

This is one the most unusual versions of the tune that I have heard by one of the geniuses of jazz. It strikes me that there is a resemblance to something that Kamasi Washington might do, "Star Trek voices" and all (thank you Ghosthouse); but with one more very important ingredient...true genius. Very weird...and I love it:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8afVQbPcQ-s

Another unique and favorite tenor player does it with a Samba beat:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fEyBOiQCvsA

It takes ba//s to play Giant Steps even faster than Coltrane did it. Probably the hottest tenor player right now Chris Potter is an amazing virtuoso. Love the way he and Kenny Werner uses counterpoint on this. As if the tune wasn’t hard enough!:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lx2I113XROw

Stan Getz

At the end of the day (I actually kinda hate that expression) it's hard to argue with the opinion that he was the greatest of all tenor players.  Just one year before "Giant Steps".  Amazing:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QHj-E6AHo0A

No one does it better than Coltrane!

Oliver Nelson

bringing things up to date with:

Grace Kelly
Tamasi Washington

Inna, I don't know how I overlooked your post "Incantation" with Jesse Cook and friends, but I did. It's so original that I want it played at my last rites with a duduk specialist on hand; what more can I say.

I will tune in to Jesse Cook.

Jesse Cook is a very accomplished guitar player. Most of what he plays is too, let's say, popular kind of new age music, but at times...yeah. Was at least once rated by Guitar or some other magazine as number two acoustic guitar player, with the first being Paco de Lucia. Among other places he studied guitar playing with French Gypsies!
Orpheus10, I am glad to hear it. 
That Armenian instrument is really unique, I've never heard it before.
You can try Cook's concert in Montreal, some tracks I quite like. But "Incantation" stands apart.

Couldn't help it. It's unusual that all three of them perform this tune.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADwfyxpriAM

Don't know about the others but I like this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phUykaBNM3Y

I had a friend named Sandra who had the blues, this is "Sandra's Blues"


   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMgwWAaxQQ4         

Blues for Charlie was really boss; that's my kind of blues; some people blow the blues, some people know the blues; Charlie Parker lived the blues, and I can hear it in this music.
 

" Sandra's Blues" is very nostalgic.

For vinyl lovers, seems they have a big stock..
http://www.audiophileusa.com/

Badly overpriced.

Donald Harrison

Not meaning to bore anyone with personal details, but simply to make a point and (hopefully) food for thought:

I have a mole on the left side of my neck that has been there for as long as I can remember. I have always thought that it was probably the result of a couple of bad sunburns suffered during my careless younger days; or, the result of...who knows? My teenage son has a similar mole in the exact same spot on his neck; he doesn’t like the sun. Coincidence? I don’t believe in coincidences. Isn’t it fascinating and mysterious what traits are inherited from and passed on by our parents?

Nice clips of Ravi Coltrane, Acman3. Coincidentally, about three weeks ago, at an outdoor Classical music concert of all places, I met Ravi Coltrane. Nicest guy you will ever meet. Perhaps it was the simple knowledge of who he is the son of and the well documented gentleness and spiritual quality that his father possessed, but it was striking how similar Ravi’s personality is to what I know of his father’s. Physically, the similarities in facial features were also amazing; but that, I suppose, is to be expected. To say I was somewhat "star struck" (if one can call it that) as I shook his hand would be an understatement. The mentioned qualities can reasonably be expected, but the fact that his tenor saxophone playing is so remarkably reminiscent of his father’s is what amazes me; although, for me, somewhat less so his soprano playing. As has been commented on here many times there are and have been many Coltrane disciples who play great and some who carried on the Coltrane torch and extended the Trane musical language. None have had that deep sense of "calm in the eye of the storm" quality that Trane’s playing had. Just wanted to share and thanks for the clips.

Inna, everything for "audiophiles" is badly overpriced. You are an "audiophile" if, and only if you have a specified large amount to spend on such purchases, and won't hesitate to spend it.

You are not an audiophile if you hesitate to spend a large amount of your disposable income on audiophile purchases. (that goes with the new definition)

When the commodity markets were manipulated (when gasoline cost $4.00 or even $5.00 per gallon) the people on the right side of that equation ( the politically connected) made an astronomical amount of money, and they can still afford to spend a ridiculous amount of money on any thing they choose.

That equation shifted the average income down. (the price of food was manipulated too) If you had to pay more for food and gasoline, two of the basic necessities of life; that amounted to a decrease in your disposable income; ( your bank account took a big hit, now you're lucky if you have one) the amount of money left for frivolities is a lot less now.

Although many of us object to reality, that's the life we have to live; unless we were on the right side of the equation, and can afford a 100K amp.

Frogman, it's not fascinating or mysterious, just a fact of life; the same thing goes for athletes.

So much of who you are, was determined before you were born; it's a lot about "who was yo daddy". If your daddy was rich, I would venture to say you don't have too many financial problems, and even those will be reduced when he joins honorable ancestors.

Inna, thanks for the Tony Scott clip. I like the clip. Frankly, about the most enjoyable thing that I have ever heard by Tony Scott; he is generally not my cup of tea. Interesting player whose style always shows his fascination with folk music. There is a quality in his playing reminiscent of the way that the clarinet is used in Eastern European folk music. He is often touted as a bebop clarinet player and in my opinion that is quite a stretch.

My comments are not meant to provoke or offend but to hopefully inspire interesting and friendly discussion. I think that one of the challenges in evaluating and discussing music on a thread like this is in keeping our own personal musical style and genre preferences separate and independent from evaluations about the artistic and technical merit, or as you recently stated, the "level" of the playing. You commented about the Connors clips that Ghosthouse posted and seemed to object to their "level". You then posted music by Jesse Cook and Tony Scott. What is it about the level of that music that you find superior (presumably) to that of the Connors other than the fact that you may like those styles/genres better? I don’t find anything inherently superior in either the Jesse Cook or Tony Scott clips on a technical or compositional level. Style/genre? Obviously very different and they each evoke different feelings mostly dictated by our personal likes and preferences. I would also argue that the Scott is on a lower level technically and compositionally. Jesse Cook, as you say, is a very good guitarist, and even though I am not quite sure he is, along with Paco, one of the two best I do like some of his stuff. However, that clip (as you point out) barely rises above the saccharine Flamenco flavored "New Age/World Music" thing; and, I would also argue that with the exception of Cook himself the playing is not on the same "level" of virtuosity as that on the Connors clips. Just what do you mean when you refer to "level"? I welcome your thoughts.

Not comparing; just two acoustic guitarists that I enjoy:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ahL2vE-AGSY

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pi83LbDpUd0

Class, Frogman, class.
I listened to what you posted. I would still prefer John Williams to the former and I would not listen to the latter, just not my kind of music.
I think, I said it once here long ago, the best sax playing I've ever heard was at the corner of 5th Avenue and 60 something. The man, black man, was playing alone what I would call a never ending blues, combining styles of Coltrane and Miles from seventies but with more passion. No idea who he was.  Point is that there are great players, even if few, out there, but they are not 'on TV'.
I only like this composition by Tony Scott and his performance with Japanese musicians - Music for Zen Meditation. Very unusual collaboration, especially for that time.

And no, that man was not technically as good as Coltrane, but his technical level was good enough for what he had to expess.

Orpheus10, I think you simplify things. Some audiophiles, me included, do hesitate to spend subjectively and objectively significant amounts on music and equipment. There are other expenses, there are family members too. Also, I don't have much and I do save on food, especially on eating out, but not only. Did you know that on average Americans eat at least twice as much as needed? I am not talking about hungry people, there are many of them too.
As an example, I just bought a great used power cord for my integrated amp for $650, which is quite a money for me to spend on a cord. I did hesitate a little before buying it. But currently I do one upgrade every year and stay under $1k for each.
I said about those overpriced records because I saw some titles on ebay from people with very good feedback for half as much. True, you got to check ebay at least once every day when hunting for something particular. 

Thanks for your response, Inna. I still don’t know what you mean by "level". Level of "class"? Seems to me that class is a very subjective thing. Are you suggesting that the playing in the Connors clips had no class? Again, style/genre preference, no? Re the mystery saxophone player on 5th and 60th:

Best saxophone playing you ever heard? Wow!

**** That’s the reason why I listen to relatively few recordings.****

Perhaps that should change? 😎

Yeah, try to find those people recorded anywhere let alone released albums. Maybe that man with sax was well known in NYC, I don't know. It was late evening in September, I listened to him for about twenty minutes, dropped $20 in his case and left. He kept playing.

Tony Scott absorbed the blues bird felt and projected it; that's what you and Frogman heard Inna; there was no Zen meditation projected in that clip.

If you read every scrap of paper that you could find involving the life of Charlie Parker, including his childhood, you would know that he was haunted by many inner demons that never letup; Tony Scott projected the blues Bird must have felt.

Orpheus10, you are probably right, I don't know much about Parker.
How about this, something very different. That's class, at least I think so.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bl8tFcI6YU

Inna, there are many "new" audiophiles in the market that producers are capitalizing on; they are the ones who are convinced that the most expensive is the best; hence "some" records are much higher than normal; especially when money to these new audiophiles is like confetti.

While it's true that there have always been a few, never in such large numbers; this can be confirmed by the ads in "Stereophile"

When there are many who can not only afford, but are willing to pay this price, I wonder....


        https://www.stereophile.com/content/siltech-and-crystal-cable-big-and-small

😳

There is Studer A810 on ebay for $5k. Too bad it's out of my reach. Well, I would have to sell most of my equipment and cables and some records to be able to get it. What's stopping me? Probably mostly the difficulty and cost of obtaining master dubbs.
Yeah, I think that old school audiophiles are very different, not always poorer, but possibly especially those who still play open reel decks.

Old school music, not too old.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXpdgdgrK6I

Joe Pass

Inna, if you keep swinging, sooner or later, you gonna strike out; but don't let that stop you, eventually you'll hit another home run; just ask Babe Ruth.