Jadis Orchestra Reference SE and DA-50 Integrateds

Just out of curiosity, since I may decide to set up a second system later, how would you describe the difference between these integrated amplifiers outside of their roughly double price difference? And how would you compare them to a pre/power combo like the JA-15 and JP-15? Thanks in advance for your thoughts.
As I understand it, the JOR uses a passive pre-amp stage. The DA50 uses an active pre-amp stage, Hence at least part of the difference. Please correct me if my understanding is incorrect.
I have owned the JOR and currently own a DA30 and DA60.

The DA50 is more or less an update to the DA30. A bit analogous to the update that the JOR was to the Orchestra, and today, the way the DA88S is to the DA60. So, while I have not owned the DA50, I can give you a rough perspective on the differences between the JOR and DA30, which will be close to what you are looking for.

First, Jadis integrateds seem to be as good as things get in terms of producing music, and the enjoyment related to the emotions of having this in your home. Secondly, a rule of thumb that was told to me, and seems to be true in my experience - even the smallest Jadis is still VERY much a Jadis, but as you move up the line, you get more of it. That more may be more power, more resolution, more refinement. But, you will get the essence of everything that is beautiful about the way a Jadis makes music no matter what Jadis you buy.

The JOR features:
- passive preamplifier section
- 2 12AX7 and 4 output tubes
- ability to run EL34, 6CA7, 6550, KT88, and KT90 ouput tubes
- Class A/B operation
- manual biasing procedure, and complex to boot. The amplifier must be taken apart and reassembled, which once the procedure is understood, is the most difficult part
- 40 wpc with EL34, 53(?) with the larger tubes
- bass and treble controls

The DA50 features
- active preamplifier section, using 3 12AU7 tubes
- 2 12AX7 driver and 4 output tubes
- I may be wrong on this, but you should use the larger tubes (6550, KT88, KT90)
- pure Class A autobias circuit
- 30 wpc

Now, for my own subjective opinion...

The JOR is definitely what I consider the most astounding product in high end audio. A much overlooked product, it can sound just about as wonderful as anything in this hobby in many regards. I believe it is not really understood because of Jadis not being available for people to experience and also because it costs "only" $3500. If it's a question of value - JOR versus DA50S, the JOR wins. But, the JOR wins pretty much no matter what it is compared to from a price/performance standpoint in audio.

With the right output tubes, which I consider to be either JJ KT88 or JJ E34L tubes depending on your priorities, the amplifier is simply magical sounding. Running the JJ E34L tubes, I got perfect midrange out of my unit, with my Coincident speakers. I have NEVER encountered that from any other high end audio combination. It brought tears to my eyes. I think the passive preamp lends a lot to this. Bass was not exceptional, but I was happy enough. Treble was also wonderful. I have owned several mono tube amplifiers (including the AtmaSphere M60 MKII.3 that I own currently), but surprising as it is, the JOR produced the best imaging I have encountered in an amplifier. And, though high end taboo, I loved having the tone controls, they let me shape the music to what I thought sounded best from source to source and CD to CD. I realize that leaves me open for criticism; so be it.

The person I sold it to has the keenest of ears (he may even check into this thread - hope he does), uses it in his second system, and is used to the finest of audio equipment (what he uses in his main system). It's the product he ended up with after moving through many products along the way. The JOR looks to be the piece that will be there forever. He seems to consistently be at a loss to explain how good this amp is, or where exactly its ceiling is. I feel the same way. Incredible!

I'll speak of my DA30 (actually a Defy DA30), and we can extrapolate that the DA50S would only be better than what I am saying. Also, I must say that my DA30 is an extremely old unit, different in many ways from what the current DA30, or the DA50S is today. It may have been the first integrated Jadis produced. I have heard that this model has more purity sonicswise, at the expense of thermal stability and ultimate power, but I have not had a newer DA30 or DA50S to compare it to. Also, my DA30 has been "upgraded" by changing the bias resistors and caps, and possibly other things. And, it may well have shifted the sound (my friend who owned it previously told me the improvement was real). Though I do have my DA60, and while I have not worked it all out as of yet, there are some real differences between it and my DA30 and the JOR.

With the DA30, you get the active preamplifier section (which, as we know, preamps exert an incredible impact on the sound), larger transformers, and a different circuit. It's quite different sounding than the JOR, but retains a special thing that I have only heard come out of a Jadis, which appeals to the heart. Jadis products are best enjoyed by folks who get the emotional end of music, and are less concerned about the way things look on paper or measure.

The DA30 fleshes out the bottom end, lending a rich, liquid, full and voluptuous sound that does not exist much in high end audio today. Or, at least, with the majority of tube amplifiers in high end audio. It's difficult to describe, but the richness embues music with a warm and realness that is intoxicating. The JOR does not do that, it's bass is more lean, and the overall sound of the JOR sounds more midrange centric, while the DA30's center of gravity is lower.

I have not been able to reproduce the perfect midrange of the JOR yet, though rolling the tubes certainly produces great effect on the sound. Again, like the JOR, I think it's the preamp, this time an active one, that exerts itself here. Different 12AU7 tubes lend different sound. So far, Mullard Blackburns sound best to my ear - relaxed, rich, liquid, yet also open, clear, and with good bass. The DA30 does provide excellent midrange and treble, and I can listen all day and night without any fatigue. Initially, I felt I was losing detail or clarity in comparison with the JOR, but more careful scrutiny showed it was giving me all that was in the music, but its more relaxed nature seemed to hide it at first blush.

My DA30 uses the older autobias circuit, which is designed for the larger (6550, KT88, KT90) tubes. The DA50S may be set up for these tubes only as well. Current DA30 and DA60 can also run the 6CA7 and EL34 tubes. I have tried the EL34, and the sound is definitely better to my wife and daughter. I'm not sure, I'll have to try again. Still, as things are with mine, I have been cautioned that tube life will most probably be compromised by me running the smaller tubes in it, though the values of the bias resistors and caps could be increased to let it run EL34 safely (then, I couldn't run the larger tubes...). You should ask Pierre Gabriel (SUPER guy to work with!) for clarification on the DA50S, as this information is outside of my knowledge base at this point.

The JOR I owned was more powerful, and able to play louder. Strange as this will sound, up to the point where things become hectic, the DA30 exerts better control of the loudspeaker. It ultimately produces less power, but up until that point, sounds more authoritative. Both amplifiers ultimately hit their ceilings in terms of power output, but my levels of louds are far louder than most audiophiles. I mean lease breaking levels. In the grand scheme, both will produce enough volume for 95+% of the audiophiles I meet.

As I get a better handle on my DA60, which has just been refreshed by Avi Brand (US Service Rep), I'll be able understand how it sounds in comparison to the others. And, in fact, it may be a better clue in terms of how a JOR compares to a DA30 or DA50S of today. So far, it seems to have more openness than my DA30, a more upfront presentation, and with its behemoth transformers and double the output tube count, as much volume as one wants without running out of steam - the DA60, so far, has not hit a ceiling. I'm curious to see if it actually sounds like a bigger, better, more authoritative JOR. If so, that would give me a better perspective in which to compare the JOR and DA30/DA50S, as I will be returning to the current Jadis house sound.

In the end, as I said, if it is at all a question of value, the JOR is your move. If the cost is not an issue, and you are looking for richer, more liquid sound, the DA50S may be the right choice. They are different flavors, and I can appreciate people preferring one over the other. Avi has obviously come across many, many Jadis owners. He tells me that while the majority of people prefer the more expensive DA30 or DA60, he has definitely encountered people who like the smaller ones better. If this post has tried to get anything across, it's that I can certainly understand exactly what Avi means by that.

I've owned the JOR for 3 yrs now and am happy with it, for the most part.
System is JOR/Cayin 17/Seas Thor's.
So as you can see my digital and speakers both match the Jadis in terms of quality.
The Jadis is abit bass shy, but then consider the Thors are a 4 ohm speaker!!! This little Jadis (weighs in at about 40 lbs I believe) is driving 2 6 inch woofers each cabinet + thirsty Seas tweet.
Thats 6 drivers in all with a big xover.
And yet the Jadis does a good job.
The thing about the Jadis is very low fatigue level, none actually. I can listen to trhe Jadis all day long and not once feel its time to shut it down.
I have had my eye on the JA60/used, but I think if I get some $'s it'll be the Cayin 500, with those beautiful looking U29 tubes.

I believe Jadis just came out with another beautiful intergrated, correct?
Need to go to the site to look it up. Out this summer I believe.

The Jadis DA88 I"m refering to. . Quite a beauty. But price?
Guessing $8K.
Let me reafirm the Jadis Orch Refer is fine buy at the price, $2100.
Though obviously as stated Trejla, as you go up, DA30, DA60, DA88, now you are getting into fine music reproduction.
But I have no complaints with the Orch Refer.
I'm just now taking a closer look at your post.
Highly interesting and spot on.
My Jadis Orch does produce quite a bit of sound volume. That is drives these 4 ohm Thors more than enough to fill this large size cathdreal ceiling room. More than sufficient. I usually listen in fact at 1/3 the volume.
But I want that bottom heavy beefy sound as you call it. Rich/liquid.
I've been told the DA30 does just that. But would love to hear your comparison on the DA30 and your DA60.
Look forward to your follow ups.
Once again I'd like to confirm Trejla's comment that the Orch Refer delivers big enough sound to satisfy most any audiophile. With matching speakers of course.
Notice one thing on Audiogon, very few Jadis up for sale. When folks buy them, they stay in the family for a very long time.
IOW if I upgrade to a Cayin, I doubt if I'll sell the Orch, and keep it as a second bedroom system.
One kinda falls in love with a Jadis.
However if I did it all over again and had known about the Cayin 3 yrs ago, I'd bought a Cayin 788 or something else. For $3K+ I can get the Cayin 500 shipped from france. Jadis can't touch that in terms of price nor sound even close to that price.
IOW comparing the DA60 @ $6K vs the cayin 500 @ $3500, I'm quite sure I'd walk with the Cayin.
A french Cayin dealer over the phone confirmed my hunch.
However its a experiment neither of us will do..
Cayin IMHO is the much better deal. At least in terms of better power and maybe only a slight sacrifice in quality/fatigue level.
Or am I wrong here?
Bartokfan, are you in France?

I'm not nearly as well versed as you when it comes to Cayin gear, but a friend of mine has the KT88 based integrated. It sure is a nice amplifier, but it doesn't appeal to me in the way that the Jadis integrateds do.

By the way, which output tubes are you running in your JOR? I presume the JJ KT88? If so, I think that is probably the best overall tube. Especially in light of you driving a moderately demanding speaker load. But, if you are using the Ei KT90, I think you would be quite happy once you move to another output tube. Again, if you are ever interested enough to give the JJ Blue Glass E34L tubes a try, the midrange is out of this world.

In terms of the DA60 update, tonight I have placed it in the system it was meant for - my wife's. My only caveat is that currently I am runing the horrific Sovtek 6550. All I can say is this, the DA60 is surely a lifetime purchase for us. With the Coincident speakers, the match is very, very good. Unlike the DA30, there is absolutely no shortage of power. We are getting high volumes without issue. Then again, you really have to see how much larger the beast is than the JOR and DA30. The transformers are breathtaking. The DA30's transformers are one size up from the JOR, and I figured the DA60 used the same units. Boy, was I wrong, they are probably twice as large.

As I wrote above, the clear, open sound put me back toward what I described the JOR possessing. Still, there is some real weight in the low frequencies. Not the rich, luxurious, relaxed sound of my older DA30, but still full bodied and powerful. Personally, I find the amp strikes quite a nice balance between being forward and relaxed, sort of the Goldilocks "just right" kind of thing. It seems to have the attributes you and I liked regarding the JOR, along with what we felt could be improved upon - more power, more rich and powerful low frequencies, no hint of leanness. With the dead cold amp playing for maybe 5 seconds, my wife confidently announced the DA60 was the best amp I've ever provided her.

On Saturday evening, just for fun, we went back and forth with a quad of JJ Blue Glass EL34 tubes I had against the Sovtek. No question, the JJ were day and night better. So, the next move is to pick up 8 new output tubes, and I am having an extremely difficult time deciding between the EL34 or the KT88. It's more or less a question of bass versus midrange. Factoring in price, perhaps I'll give the EL34 the nod. Once I make this move, and the tubes burn in, I'll be ready to complete the picture here. If I get any improvement akin to what retubing did for my JOR, this amp is literally going to be so good it will be scary.

I can now relate to what I relayed above, when you move up in the Jadis line, you still have a Jadis, you just get more of it. The DA60 provides the "mores" that one would ask for over the JOR. Though, in the end, I feel totally sure in saying again that if value factors into this equation whatsoever, the JOR is the definite play here - what a special high end audio product!!! I think the world really needs to give this special little amp a listen - many, many eyes would be opened.
I am indeed the lucky recipient of Joe's JOR. Just for perspective, let me state that my home system (EMM DCC2, CDSD, Sota Cosmos latest vacuum model, Shelter 901, EAR 324, Atma-Sphere MP-1 Mk III, Atma-Sphere MA-2 (220 WPC OTL Class A), Kharma Reference 3.2, PAD Dominus i/cs and s/cs) provides no more musical pleasure than my much more modest second office system, powered by the incredible JOR (Merlin TSM-Mx, APL 3910, Thorens 125 Mk III, Shure V15V, Wright WPP 200 C phono preamp, Cardas GR i/cs and s/c) which runs 12 hours every day while I work. (3500 hours) I am ashamed and embarassed to say that in the 12 months I have owned it, I have not re-biased it after Joe kindly biased it and sent his JJ blue EL 34s with it. I did replace the 12AX7s with Mullard NOS courtesy of Andy at Vintage Tubes. I cannot face dissembling the amp - although it is obviously time, after 12 months. But you cant tell from listening. This is an ear-opening amp, of seductive mid-range, sweet, mellow but resolved highs and light, non-weighty but satisfactory bass. For classical, mostly chamber music - you should just hear Mozart Clarinet concerto or Kiri singing Dovo Sono - you dont miss the non-stellar lower notes - But the overall midrange and high-end are so beguiling, relaxing and tonally perfect, that I elect to listen to it all day rather than come home to a system that is logarithmically more expensive and powerful and "better." But, you just cant beat the utter musicality and visceral appeal of the JOR amp. The mids and highs have a earthy, almost thick, but detailed enough, mystical presence, an almost palpable feel that is sensuous and gripping beyond description - - It blew away any other amps I have tried, including many highly rated SS amps and high powered SET amps of highly pedigreed lineage. This is indeed a magical piece of music-producing design and again I thank Joe for selling it - I really dont think he wanted to - had his arm kinda severely twisted, but it aint going nowhere, unless someone offers me the new auto-biasing Jadis at a song:). Joe's description of its strengths are perfect, and if this wasn't such a pain to bias, would get even higher raves than the best compliment I can give it - it is my first listening choice every day. I cant bring it home to try with the Kharmas because it doesn't have balanced inputs and all my home cables are XLRs. But it owns you after a while and could only conceivably be replaced with another Jadis.....just like Joe did and said.
Wow! I'm really, really impressed by the replies here. Thanks Joe and Mr. Bartok for these exceptional details. Joe, I know that specs really don't mean much but I was curious about the fact that the frequency range on the DA-50 is only 20-17k, whereas the JORSE goes up to 40k. Is this meaningful? It sounds like it isn't an important issue. Still, I was wondering about the differences. I'm not fully versed on technical issues.

Where I live the JORSE, goes for about 2900 USD and the DA-50 is 6500 USD. I hope you don't find this query rude, but if you don't mind, what is the price of the DA-60? Don't feel obliged to answer if my query is out of line. I'm not sure I can get the DA-60 where I live. I've not yet seen it posted on any of the familiar websites.

Thanks so much for the replies. I learned a lot from them.

"Jadis products are best enjoyed by folks who get the emotional end of music, and are less concerned about the way things look on paper or measure."

Rereading your post once again, I see you've answered this question already. Thanks.
In France, the Cayin 500 received many rave reviews but I don't think it was ever sold in the US. I have never heard one.

I auditioned both the JOR and 50S side by side and loved both. It was a classic comparison of EL34 to KT88 and so I would pick whichever tube I prefer. Personally, I like EL34 better.
"Bartok are you in france?"
Hi Joe
No I live i n Baton Rouge. Recently displaced by hurricane Katrina, lived in Lakeview, was at home during the storm. My stereo/cds were saved, unlike many others who evacuated w/o knowing the consequences.
I bought the Jadis from the US dealer, came with KT90's, Richard Grey told me, "mighty fine tubes, do not go with others". So not sure if I really want/need the KT88's.
The thing with the JOR is that lack of "punch" you refer to that the DA60 has in ample supply, the DA30 as well.
However I really was impressed with a friend's Cayin 300, and since then I have bought 2 Cayin Tube cdp's. Both fine output.
The Cayin 500 is in a class above most Cayin's. One can see from the photio those U29's are pretty amazing looking tubes.
So I managed to call a dealer in france. And from a short chat with him, I do not speak french, he spoke fair english, he had only the highest praise for the 500. He wanted me to understand one descriptive, "imaginique" How the music has a clear imaginable image in production, depths of reality I guess he wanted to express..
Now I guess the DA60 produces extra-ordinary sound reproduction as well. This I have no boubts.
I might be able to ship a 500 MK for $3600.
The DA60 runs about $6K.
I'd really hate to comapare the 2 in a test, as I'd want both.
Most likely I'll go with the Cayin, 1-2 yrs from now.
I'm expecting the 500 to delieve some heft, she weighs in at about $80 lbs.
The DA60 goes heaviey than that I believe.
The DA60 is not easy to get out my mind.
"a last amp" for sure.
Which tubes are best with the DA60?
Bill, take the Jadis specs with a grain of salt...

For example, on their own website, they list the JA800 as using 4 KT90 output tubes, a fraction of what the number is in reality. Also, the Class A/B JOR is listed as consuming 300 watts, while the pure Class A DA30 using the same output tubes uses 240 watts? I doubt it...

I believe the DA60 is $11K+. The JOR for $2900 is a really nice deal, the DA50, IMHO, at $6500 seems quite dear. Then again, to get most of what the DA60 offers, maybe it is a good deal. While the prices seem high to me, when you compare them to buying separates, spending as much, and not doing as well sonically, maybe I need to adjust my thinking?

Oh, one other thing, despite what just about everyone will tell you, go for the tone controls if you settle on the JOR. Being able to tilt the bass up two clicks sounded very right in many cases to me.

Paul, my heart goes out to you over the Katrina tragedy. Thankfully, you seem to have landed on your feet. I think you are very wise in your thinking. But, I will say that me and Richard Grey are in total disagreement when it comes to the Ei KT90.

I used to think they were great tubes as well, and there is no more robust tube on the market. But, when I retubed my JOR for Denis (Springbok10), it is difficult to express how much better the amplifier got. Yes, the KT90 make more power, and yes, they are the most extended in the bass and treble. But, being able to flesh out the midrange versus having a more cold, sterile sound is a tradeoff anyone who falls in line with what we talked about Jadis offering will make every day of the week. Both the KT88 and the EL34 were several steps ahead, in short, you have no idea how much better your JOR can really sound until you are ready for a retube.

Aball, what about a DA30 or a DA60 in lieu of the JOR versus the DA50? That way, you can run either the EL34 or the KT88, depending on where you are along the way. Based on my feeling, cost, and your opinion, things are starting to tilt towards the JJ Blue Glass E34L in my DA60, though Avi Brand is not an EL34 fan, he is trying to steer me to the KT88.

Denis, it's hard to put into words how happy I am that you are enjoying the JOR as much as you do. It's a shock, actually, you have a murderer's row of equipment in the big system. Obviously, to impress you is an accomplishment. I was more than a bit nervous when it went up to you, as you had tried and rejected a number of highly rated components. But, your endorsement is something that Jadis must be extremely proud of. I doubt you'll be going back to the Ei KT90 tubes...
Though I don't like to change out tubes, cause as you know there is a trade off.
However you do may the comment in the "coldness" of the JOR with the KT90's. Now folks reading this may not understand that the JOR with the KT90's is a very nice sound, I just rated it 9 in the mids on another topic.
But the coldness is undeniably there. Since I listen to all classical, with little need for extentions in the highs/lows, I may be very interesed in getting the KT88's. A tube that Richard did highly praise for its unique characterists, as you explain. That day at my home, he praised the KT90's and the KT88's for their qualities.
Can you tell me if the mids will have that same detail on the 88's that I now have on the 90's.
I don't want a muddled mid image, but would like atad more warmth.
Am I clear?
btw whats a set of 88's gonna run me.
I need to get back to New Orleans and ck up on Richard's shop on Jefferson Hwy. Last time I talked to him was just before the storm, we talked about retubing my Cayin 17 with 4 high quality tubes vs the stock tubes.
Although not all of Metairie flooded, his area I believe was flooded. His TV repair shop was across from Ochner hospital. The front door was street level so I'm sure it was bad. Yes I know, STREET LEVEL, many houses in greater new orleans were built STREET LEVEL.
All of lakeview/most of new orleans is a ghost town, With only chat of rebuilding houses. But so far lakeview/gentilly remains as it was the day Katrina hit, with some houses gutted, many are not.
Do you have a contact # for Richard?
Just gor off the phone with Richard Grey, he is doing OK. Richard rode the storm out at his house uptown new orleans, off Carrollton.
His house had damage from a fallen tree and his business had very little damage. I was very gald this great guy made out all right.

Joe which KT88's are you refering to?
I really don't want to spend over say...$50/tube.
Hello, Paul. Glad to hear that Richard is doing well. From all accounts, he is a really good person.

If you have little need for ultimate bass extension, but prize midrange "rightness" over absolutely all else, the JJ Blue Glass E34L tube is for you. In my experience, no tube will provide you with better clarity, openness, imaging, and "sunny disposition", while not sounding harsh, overly forward, brittle, or muddled. I think the treble is also quite good. You do take somewhat of a step back in terms of absolute power (2 clicks on the JOR's volume knob), and the loss of bass impact is definite. You can pick up a quad of these tubes for about $65, so being just over $15/tube, they definitely meet your budget. After speaking with Denis, and going over this sonic priorities, we chose these tubes, and I was not quite prepared for the improvement they yielded.

If the loss of power and bass is unacceptable, the JJ KT88 are the ones we are speaking of. They provide ultimately less absolute bass extension, but apparent bass impact will seem to rise (and not subtly), as the mid/upper bass is more pronounced, and most people in my experience seem to equate mid/upper bass with what they think is actually low bass. You will lose that wonderful midrange by a step or two, but it still would be a real upgrade over the Ei KT90. Prices are much higher than the E34L, about $150/quad or so, which still easily falls within your budget.

I want to make sure no one takes me as not being a fan of the Ei KT90. The tubes are the most rugged I have encountered, and for those who want no one area to stick out, they do seem to provide that. Also, prices have come down in recent years, as they spiked sharply after the 1998 NATO bombing of the factory in the former Yugoslavia. Still, while liking the JOR a lot with these tubes, I ended up loving it when I tried the others.

Incidentally, Denis, if you are still here, what type of difference did the Mullard 12AX7 provide you over the Ei? In my DA30 over the summer, I originally had a pair of National, and the Ei were a step up. Then, I tried a pair of Mullard Blackburns, and that also yielded some tangible improvements over the Ei, with no drawbacks that I could detect. Clarity, detail, bass response all improved, along with adding more liquidity and a relaxed nature. I'm curious if the Mullards also gave you the same improvement as I heard over the Ei.
Joe, I'm sold on the EL34's. Can you provide a link or know of a seller that can help me?
Email me if you care.
Also can you help me out with replacing the 4 6992's in my Cayin 17 cdp.
I'm really looking forward to the EL34's.
Should be just the thing for reproducing my classical music.
As an update, I have been tube rolling in the DA60 to outstanding effect!

Currently, I am burning in an octet of JJ Blue Glass KT88, and all I can say is "WOW"! The improvement over the Sovtek 6550 is simply amazing. Every aspect of the sound from bottom to top has improved substantially. The DA60 makes some serious bass with the Coincidents. Funny, in another thread, someone made the statement that a Jadis integrated lacks slam and falls apart when the music gets going. Oh, yea?!? This must be heard to be believed. But, what makes this a Jadis is the sweet, romantic sound, that you can simply listen to all day without fatigue.

The mids seem so right that I wonder if I can improve upon them. But, try I will - I am awaiting an octet of the newly released JJ KT77 tubes, which are a premium EL34 type tube. Hopefully, I will be able to install them this weekend, and be able to compare them to the KT88. I expect a downgrade in the low frequencies, and potentially some power (which the DA60 has oodles to spare), but am anxious to hear how the mids of this new tube sound.

Incidentally, I have also wrought some very real improvement by installing Sylvania 5751 tubes in place of the Mullard Blackburn 12AX7. THAT was worth it.
Hey Joe, you have me salivating. Maybe I should just buy your DA30 and quit dilly dallying.

Incidentally, CJ just informed me that I shouldn't be using my Sylvania 3-mica black plate 5751s in place of the 12AX7s in my MV55. They said "the circuit is optimized for 12AX7" and wouldn't tell me anything more than that. In a way, I wonder if it really matters...but now they have me worried. What can it hurt?? Anyway, thought I would mention it. Arthur
Arthur, thank you for your perspective!

All I can say is that "if it sounds right, it is right." And, in my case, these 5751 definitely sound right. It's funny because I bought them from a local guy, and he has thousands of tubes, and didn't seem as if he felt they were anything special. But, I guess he's never really spent a lot of time with the 5751. I told him I was trying them based on the claims of some that a 5751 can outdo a 12AX7, which he chortled at. He said, "You should try a good 12AX7." When I told him I had the Mullards, he said, "Well, I guess you can always have these as a spare or sell them or whatever..." Anyhow, they were not better in every area (weak bass) initially, but after about 3 hours, it was pretty clear they weren't ever coming out.

Do you have the same feelings in your CJ regarding the 5751? If so, just do what you know is right.

Regarding the DA30, I'm wondering just how modified it is? I believe I am going to relist it at a lower price, this week, as it seems as if a going through by Avi Brand might improve it significantly as was the case of my DA60. I wasn't sure what the actual market value of it was, as you see SO few of them come up, but I tried to scale it on what an Orchestra/JOR trades for. After the past couple of days, I'm not sure I could sell it in good conscience at what I listed it for. I want to discuss it with Avi to see if I could get a ballpark on what he would be interested in getting it together for the new owner for.