I must say that the Jade cables are largely trial and error. Is this not true for just about everything in the world of high-end audio? There were many prototypes before he settled on the Vermeil and Gold. Knowing JD quite well now, I am sure that is an understatement. These are thus substantially indifferent to the simple axioms of cable design. Perhaps so, but how many cable manufactures follow such simple axioms in their cable designs? And what exactly are these simple axioms? In the next week or so I too will get the priveledge to hear JD's cables in my system....through a personal visit by the designer himself. I am eagerly awaiting this opportunity. |
I played with a pair of Vermeil and 2 pairs of Gold trying to find a way not to like the Gold because of the cost. But the way the Gold allows for the performance behind the speakers to come to life is like no other IC I have had here. Gone is the need to compromise between a tonally coherent result vs. the spatial, decay, harmonic structure capabilities that so many other cables manage to filter out.
I still have not heard the Stealth Indra nor Purist Anniv. but these are both significantly higher cost than the Jade Gold. When I hear the Indra soon, I will report back on my findings vs. the Gold.
The Vermeil brings the top-most frequencies from percussion a little more out into the room and the bass was also notably tighter which is a good thing for me with all the bass energy I now have with the addition of many new Stealth PCs. The Gold lags just a wee bit behind here but the bass is never boomy or annoying. But a return to the Gold makes these frequency-extreme differences a moot point once you hear the performance again explode into 3-dimensional magic. Perhaps without the Aesthetix Io/Callisto/JL-3, this one difference between the Jade cables would most likely not be as evident. But the Io-to-Callisto link with an XLR Gold in my system has no peers.
Like John, I don't think I can afford Golds throughout but Jade will work with me to get darn close with a Vermeil or two strategically placed in the system and the Gold in the key locations we identify through listening.
As much as I loved the sound of my system fully loaded with Dominus ICs and PCs, the Stealth Dream & M5000 PCs and now the Jade ICs takes my system to yet another level.
So we all need to hurry up and get these Gold cables before the price of Gold jumps! |
Hmmm, I was wondering why the treble was a bit reduced lately. It's amazing what 40 tubes had been doing for me all that time. I'll just have to be content with the remaining 75 tubes in the system! And the room is a lot cooler now. But what's amazing is that I added an Oyaide R1 outlet last night, and a lot of the treble detail returned. So go ahead and keep the tubes as I don't need them anymore - I owe you for the broken lamp anyway.
And I am ready for phase 2 of the 4' vs. the 8' speaker cable test. |
Tbg - I currently own a pair of Stealth Dream (power model) PCs and several Stealth M5000 PCs. When I had only one Dream cable, I danced it around the system to determine the comparative benefits at each component. Some models, the Aesthetix Io and Rives PARC in particular, were significantly transformed with the Dream over the M5000 than the others components. The Aesthetix Callisto was next followed closely by the DAC and amps.
The tonality is very similar between the Dream and M5000, but the Dream brings on more resolution and coverage in the top. However, the significant benefit is very much in parallel to the Jade Gold cable - you get a wealth of spatial cues and silence between the notes that catches you off guard. How a silly power cable can do this just makes no sense. With a return back to the M5000, the reduction in these qualities is immediately noticeable. But 1/2 hour back with the M5000 indicates this is still a mighty good PC as everything is well balanced. If I was running with something other than the Io & Callisto, I suspect the Dream vs. M5000 would not be as significant.
Two nights ago, I removed the Dream PCs from the system and shuffled around the M5000's and a spare pair of FIM Gold PCs to get my ears tuned to not having the Dream PCs in the system. A couple hours later, I replaced the M5000s on the CAT JL-3 amps with the Dream PCs. The benefits were much the same sonic characteristics as with the front-end components, but not to the same degree. The M5000 with the JL-3's really works mighty fine already. So there is clearly a pecking order here and I suspect this would be true with any system but not necessarily at the same links. It's best to put aside all the theories and just try out many combinations through trial and error. All these claims that the "best" cable has to be at the top of the chain, etc. etc, is often not at all the case with my own experiementation.
As I get more and more Dream PCs, I will repeat the process to find the best fit for the cables I have. Perhaps with 3 of these, one on a front-end component and 2 back at the amps will be the way to go. But I know that Stealth recommends a system to be fully loaded with the Dream cable to benefit from its unique grounding/sheilding schemes with the various Dream models. These things are so expensive that I have to hope that at least a couple M5000s will survive to keep down the final cost.
I also have recently been advised to investigate having isolated grounds installed for the dedicated circuits. This is reported to be even more significant of an improvement than the benefits of these PCs. Now I just need to find an electrician to come over and give me an idea of the process involved to do this. This is in the back of my mind before I go off and spend a mint on 3-4 more Dream PCs. |
John - I heard the VD Revelation for a brief time last year when I was getting my Manley DAC updated. This audition was made in another audio system. With the VD Rev PC, the Manley had quite a flat presentation, not at all like I had heard it before.....something was just not right. When the VD Rev cable was replaced by a Dominus Ferox PC, the Manley quite extraordinarily blossomed into a most incredible performance. The 2 PCs were than compared to a top-tier Wadia setup and here the differences were very very subtle with the VD Rev cable bringing on just a tiny bit more detail and extension at the frequency extremes as I recall. Somehow the Dominus and more recently I have learned, the Stealth M5000 and Dream PCs, have magical properties to bring out tube gear strengths that somehow escapes other PCs. |
Tbg - I too am very surprised at such products like the Jade cables bringing on the full-suite of attributes that has been difficult to find in a cable. But JD very clearly identified the sonic strengths of a few cable lines that he lived with over the last few years. And he worked to achieve each of these in his product. This is the man who comes to your home, moves your chair 5 feet closer to the speakers and then escapes into the music. He just loves to hug the music...that "get right up there" connection. And his attention to hearing the detail in a musical performance translates back to his product. I must say that he is equally attentive to his Teddy Bears. I have several friend urging me to forget the Stealth and to get one or the other of these. This would be a huge mistake if only because you would forever wonder how the Stealth cables might perform in your system. I seek advice and ideas from many audio friends, but I would never dismiss the opportunity to hear a product just because they might praise another. I have not heard the Prana nor the Purist Anniv. But only a few months ago, my system was fully loaded with Dominus except the speaker cables (Purist Opis) and one Purist Aqueous Anniv XLR IC. I have no idea how the Prana performs. But I do know that the Stealth M5000 handily surpassed the Dominus Ferox PC in every link in my system but the Aesthetix Io. These two PCs are very much alike except the M5000 fills in the top-end a little more and surprisingly, brings on even a more textured midrange without ever having that syrupy midrange of the older Dominus models. The low-end extension and dynamic contrasts with both of these is truly outstanding. The Dream-vs-M5000 differences surpass even the M5000-vs-Dominus differences in that you lose none of the dynamics and spatial strengths, but you get a wealth of detail on the top and a most impressive black background.....the latter I have not heard since I had the Kubala-Sosna Emotion PCs here. So the Dream PC is on another planet altogether over the Dominus. I understand that the Purist Auctorita PC was a step above the Dominus and so this may be more inline to the performance of the M5000. If the Purist Anniv. is as significant of an improvement to the Dominus, then this too is a PC to reckon with and I do indeed want to hear it vs. the Dream. |
Mattheus - I spent many hours last night with the Jade Hybrid and this cable is absolutely stunning. With the Hybrid, a Jade Vermeil, a Jade Gold and also a Stealth Indra here, I tried these in the following links: Manley Ref DAC --> Aesthetix Callisto Sig --> Rives PARC --> CAT JL-3 amps. The Jade hybrid has silky silky smooth mids and an incredible rendering of tonal colors and textures. The Vermeil has only a slightly greater extension in the bass but this is a moot issue once you hear the magic that the Hybrid brings. In my system here anyway, the Vermeil is a little rough around the edges once you get accustomed to the Hybrid and the Gold. There clearly are sonic benefits to paying so much more for these latter cables, but for the price, the Vermeil simply has no peers.
Compared to the Hybrid, the Gold is a little more lush and rich in the mids but lacks the refinement on the top. And the Hybrid renders piano articulation far greater than the Gold. Overall, the Hybrid is more tonally coherent.
The only challenge to the listening test was to nail down the differences between the hybrid and the Indra. These two cables here were so darn close. Once I get another 1-2 Hybrids here, I will be in a better position to finalize on the pros/cons of the Hybrid vs. the Indra.
John |
My comments from last night's listening were with the Gold RCA on the specified components. When I listened to the Gold a few months ago, it was an XLR used in the Io-Callisto link. Here it was miles ahead of the Vermeil which was way too sterile in this link. The Io reacts to tubes, PCs and ICs unlike any other product I have owned in that the results are often not at all in common with the results of such tubes and cables tried elsewhere in the system. So even though the Gold did not win me over in the listening last night, I have not at all dismissed it back at the Io. Only a listen to the Gold vs. Hybrid vs. Indra XLR cables there can determine how these 3 cables compare and which one I will choose.
I am done chasing cables to compensate for tonality flaws elsewhere in the system. Discovering cables that flesh out the rest of the character of the music is where the fun begins. And so far the Jade and Stealth cables do this like no other cables I have had in my system. |
Tbg - It was not my intent to imply a cable can be without tonality flaws. My comment was about avoiding the temptation to choose a cable to compensate for peaks and valleys elsewhere in the system. There are many threads here where somebody is seeking a cable to bring on more "warmth", greater bass, etc. The visit here by Joe Kubala in late 2005 made it clear to me that such a practice is not the way to configure a music system.
Even between the 3 Jade models, there are tonal differences but these differences are easily overshadowed (at least in my system) due to the much greater differences in dynamic contrasts, initial strike of the notes, piano and voice textures/decays/ambience, etc. Other than the Gold's softer frequency extremes, the 3 cables are very close tonally.
Concerning the Gold, as stated before, this was just magical in the Io-Callisto link compared to the Vermeil. Only an XLR will work here if I want to achieve the Aesthetix models' phenomenol rendition of space. With a number of other ARC, BAT & CAT phono stages I have owned or heard here, this would be less a factor and perhaps the Vermeil's strengths would make it the "winner". But my system does decays like no other system I have heard and here the Gold excels over the Vermeil in this very critical attribute. Of course now I am eager to hear the Hybrid XLR in this link.
Clio09 - Congrats on the Gabriel Gold Extreme auction. I was chasing this but once I got two more Jade Hybrid cables here today and dropped them in the system, I backed off the auction. I too would like to hear the Gabriel Gold but now I need to hear the newest top model, the Revelation, to determine if it has any chance against the Jade Hybrid or Stealth Indra.
And concerning the M5000s, as I wrote up above, I have much experience with the M5000 vs the Dream. And with 3 more Dream PCs arriving next week, I will have all sorts of combinations to try with 5 Dreams and 4 M5000s and the 4 Electraglide Epiphany X. Once I iron out the pros/cons of the PCs in the system, I can email you what I learned.
And as much as I think so highly of the Stealth Dream PC, it was only marginally "better" than the M5000 in the amps when I only had two Dreams here. But the Dream is phenomenol on the front end. I also have an itch to get a pair of the DreamState PCs and try these on the amps vs. the Stealth Dream.
Now onto the 3 Jade hybrids in my system. I started with the change of the one Gold to a Hybrid. The Hybrid brought in a far more balanced rendition of piano fundamentals. Dynamic contrasts were much improved. And with this came more splash and portrayal of harmonics into the trebles. The somewhat overdone and fatiguing piano was now well controlled.
With 2 Hybrids and 1 Indra in the system, I then swapped out the Indra for the 3rd Hybrid. These two cables are so very very close across the board. Where the Hybrid renders more distinct strikes on the piano, the Indra conveys a smoother transition from key to key. The Hybrid is more lively in the mids vs. the wee-bit more mellow and distant Indra here. But the Indra also has a little more ambience and carry-through into the trebles. The differences are truly slight with the one exception of the Hybrid's weightier lower mids; there's just more meat on the bones. Between the ManleyDac-Callisto and Callisto-PARC links, it comes down to personal preference here. Both cables are truly so close otherwise. When it came to the PARC-JL3 link, the Hybrid's more dynamic and alive presentation was more like an analog vs. digital comparison. The Hybrid more greatly brought on the believeability that this was the real thing instead of a recording. This yet again confirmed that the most critical IC link in my system is the one into the amps. IC differences have always been the greatest here.
For all you Vermeil fans out there, you will be pleasantly surprised of the tonal coherency of the Hybrid but also appreciate all the other attributes in the performance that all too many cables out there simply do not let through.
The Jade Hybrid and Stealth Indra ICs are a significant cut above all others I have so far auditoned here.
John |
Osgorth - Unfortunately my system was down for 3 weeks as I had many cables out on loan to two different parties. Some of these got sold; the rest returned late last week. Only this last week have I been able to replace some to have music again.
This last weekend, I did some serious comparisons of the Indra vs. the Hybrid; I like both of these. Since my last writing to this thread, I have removed the Rives PARC. And I have changed to a "suped up" APL Denon CDP. Both of these opened up the frequency extremes, and significantly improved the system's resolution. With the speakers another 18" out into the room, the degree at which the Hybrid outperforms the Indra in the soundstage depth and layering is more dramatic than I observed before.
The Hybrid is incredible in how it fleshes out the mids and conveys space, especially depth and out to the corners. There are greater dynamic contrasts here as well. The Indra has a top-end extension and clarity that is first rate and never bright nor fatiguing. That last bit of structure and sheen to percussion instruments is very impressive, and this allows those highest of harmonics to float a bit longer ..... very nice. I have no issue with either cable in the low frequencies.
Returning back to the Hybrid and I am aware of the slight reduced detail on the top, but you gotta love the 3D projection of this cable. Ideally, I would like a cable right in between. A mix and match might be the way to go for some systems.
This week I have loaned out the Indra but I now feel I have a good handle on the sound of these two cables. There is one more IC I want to hear and then I am done! When this happens, I will report back on my findings. Unfortunately I have to repeat this painful process to find an XLR IC between the Aesthetix pieces. I have spent way too much time evaluating cables and trying a ton of different tubes in the preamp and amps, that it's time to lock down the system for no more changes. There are so many cables out there to try, but sooner or later, we have to be content and focus again on the music.
Tbg - If you find you have a little free time, borrow a Dream State PC or two or three or four. 8-)
John |
Hi Osgorth, I have gotten a lot of email inquiries about many things lately. For now I prefer to hold off and not disclose the cable to soon be auditioned. If I get it soon, and run it 4-5 days straight, by next weekend I can do an evaluation to the Hybrid and report back here.
As you can tell, the 3D aspects are more important to me than the last word in detail. This is entirely why I run with the Aesthetix products. So my results will be influenced heavily in this regard.
I have not heard of Audio Metallurgy cables. And at one time I considered Synergistic cables but my system was a rat's nest already with cables. The thought of several more small cables to power these cables would have been too messy. If someone local (Minneapolis) had these or any other they wanted to try out in my system, that would be fine, but for now, the thought of continuing this cable quest has lost its appeal to me. I like the Jade and Stealth cables that much.
Tbg - I find the Stealth Dream PCs to be the greatest value of PCs so far to cross my path. However, the Dream State PCs are quite impressive as well. I would not let the materials used in these get in the way of a home trial.
John |
I too have heard the claim that speaker cables should be 8-feet lengths but this never made much sense.....no more than digital cables need to be 1.5m instead of 1m. Afterall, how long is a speaker cable in an active speaker or a digital cable between the transport and dac stages of a cdp?
I am quite surprised that JD has invited me to return to his manufacturing facility. Last time I destroyed an antique table lamp and a few months before I wiped out a mobile hanging down from the ceiling in the back of his room. I suppose he will require me to stand out on the front porch to evaluate his speaker cables so as nothing else ends up in the landfill.
I have an even better idea.....why not bring the 4' and 8' pairs over here and we can finally hear them in my system? And in fact, why not voice them here! Afterall, with just a few tubes here, I hardly have any colorations in my system. 8-) And I can more readily accommodate 4' pairs as each amp is 3 feet from its associated speaker. So hey, next weekend? Don't forget Lucinda.
John |
I finally got a chance to get a sneak preview of the Jade speaker cables.
For the last year or so I have been using PAD Opis speaker cables. These have a great tonal coherency to lock in well between the CAT JL-3 amps and SoundLab A1 speakers. The Opis retain that strong PAD characterization of dynamic contrasts. The PAD Aqueous Anniv spkr cables were non-linear in my system with peaks and valleys all over the place.
After trying many spkr cables in the $1-2k range, the only other cable that worked well here was the Coincident xTreme, but the Opis outperformed this in dynamics .... otherwise they perform nearly identical here. I had several of these cables here at one time last year to play for a couple weeks.
Enter the Jade this week: Tonality is nearly identical to the Opis but the Jade has a little more extension in the low end and clearly more reach into the top. This latter difference allows for decays to last a bit longer and give the impression of more air to the notes. This was an 8-feet cable that had several hundred hours of use.
I then tried a 4-feet pair of the Jade cable with no burn-in time. Tonality was very similar but not as extended in either direction. The projection was much reduced which lead to a somewhat flat performance. A return to the burned-in 8-feet pair brought back the openness. All tests were done with the souped-up APL Denon into the Callisto with 2 pairs of Jade Hybrid ICs. PCs were a mix of Dream State and Stealth Dream.
The outcome of this mini audition indicates that this cable may need some serious burn-in. The 4-feet pair will be burned-in on a cable burner for a week or so and the test will be repeated to determine how the 8-feet and 4-feet pairs compare here again.
As it stands now, the Jade 8-feet cable was a very nice step above the Opis. One thing I have noticed here is how much less spkr cables differ vs. ICs and PCs. The difference between the two top ICs I have had here, the Indra and Jade Hybrid, have very dramatic differences from source to pre or pre to amps than the above differences between the Opis and Jade spkr cables. And the same with PCs into the APL Denon CDP and Running Springs Haley PLC: the Dream State PC in these positions is a much bigger step ahead of the Stealth Dream PC than these spkr cable differences. So there is clearly a priority here as to where to invest money in cables.
Osgorth: Oh and yes, that mystery IC was the GG Revelation. It did not work out well for me here at all.....whether straight out of the box or over 150 hours of continuous signal for nearly 7 days. Oh well. Leave it to me to wreck a perfect record! I was very appreciative to get refunded from Steve.
John |
Good points, John. I have the same situation now where a 4-feet pair would work well. But I am likely to go with a longer pair that would be more universal. Ideally, for summer months, I need to find a cooler but similarly performing stereo amp to the CATs. If I decide to switch over to a stereo amp or want to get the CATs further away from the SLs, I will be happy I bought the longer cables. The SLs throw a lot of energy from behind and all that blowing into the amp tubes is not a good thing. I'd hate to skimp on cost and get the smaller pair now only to find out in a year or so that I need an 8-feet pair later. And once Jade Audio is sold to a wealthy fellow overseas where the cables are now 3x the price, JD will likely be on a beach in Tahiti. This would be the end of my "upgrade" opportunity. So it's safer to go longer and use some of the posted tricks to dress the cable so that it is not coiled up next to the amp or speaker. Since spkr cables are not that huge of an influence here, this will very likely be my last pair. I am hoping to say this with my PCs too, but I am not yet done with ICs. I can bearly tolerate some respected cables for long enough to get them broken in. I can certainly relate to that comment! I use the home theater setup upstairs for some such opportunities. They were noticeably different and I preferred the Jades, but when I had to send the Jades on to Jmcgrogan, I found the CTs perfectly acceptable. Exactly the same feeling when I returned to the PAD Opis. I hope to hear the Hybrids from the Io to Callisto one of these days. I need an XLR which adds to the cost. Indra XLR cables are tough to find as well. It will take me awhile to find an XLR cable here that locks in. And I want to drop in a Jade Gold here again too as that was soooooo nice in this link. But my system has changed dramatically since then so who knows. The Stealth Hyperphono remains the reference tonearm cable here. The other two IC links will likely be Hybrids for a long long time. John |
