It’s you.

I’m somewhat thick-skinned. Usually I’m the last to recognize I’m being insulted, maybe I’m just a little slow, whatever...

I’ve been a member for several years, and read a lot more than I post. Some of you have been so gracious and helpful, I can’t thank you enough. Some of you post your insights with an awesome sense of humor, it makes learning fun! 

I appreciate the people that host this site, it’s a great resource for our hobby.

Once in awhile, someone posts a question like, ‘How can we make Audiogon better?’, or something close.

Generally, the responses mention changes to the site format, criticize dealers that participate, etc. Some gentle souls mention things like ‘our behavior toward each other could be better’ - only to be told people need to toughen up! If they can’t take the heat, leave! 

Only the strong survive, right?

Wrong, it ain’t a tough undertaking, and there’s no good reason to suffer at the hands of people with poor online communication skills. The term audiophile does not strike fear in the hearts of men, it’s people that enjoy hifi. I doubt the National Guard is put on high alert during audio shows. 

It’s a hobby, it should be light and fun. This forum is the only way some interact. It is some people’s social network. I’m guessing some on here are shut ins, elderly, in poor health, and/or suffer from who knows what. Some have modest systems, but are proud of them. They are people, that lose spouses, dogs, jobs. They get cancer and they are afraid of not being able to pay their bills. Some are very rich and very lonely. Some are bullied at school, work, and home. 

But yet when they reach out, heaven forbid with a innocently uneducated question or comment, some of you take the opportunity to knock them down a notch, expose their ignorance, help them get tough, right? 

Most of the people on here are too nice to say anything, so they just post around and ignore your insults and disrespectful comments. 

Some of you poke your head in a discussion just to leave a comment criticizing the thread, or minimizing another’s opinion. Shoot one across the bow and on the next, just toughening people up. 

My money is on you coming from a point of weakness and building yourself up at the expense of others. There’s no telling what got you in that place, but please don’t make others suffer as a result of it. Remember what Thumper’s mother said. 

I’m a filthy hearted, scabby sinner, but I try,

So, please be nice and patient with the people on here. Don’t be the savage of a hifi site, go to a beer joint with bars on the windows, that’s the place to work that kink out...,
It's all of us. 

I'm trying to think about other palpable problems associated with aggressive demeaning comments. 

..sounds like you need a "protective space".  
Ha! Maybe so, but just online!

Or maybe this backbiting happens in the real world and I travel in different circles...,

Thee would likely be more posting, more sane posting, more fun posting, more open posting, a better environment, etc..


...Those who are mean, had a ’cooler’ of a moderator come through and whittle the mean and demeaning types who cannot hold their tounge ---down to size.

I’ve seen forums do this. It takes time to recover afterward as it also took time for the forum to go bad.

Initially there is a dip in participation, as, prior..the meanness and the pettiness was integrated into the system so deeply that it made up the majority or a large part of the ebb and flow of the forum.

some forums never recover, they go dead, as the meanness and pettiness was the draw, or had become the draw.

The given forum had lost it’s soul, to become a caricature of a cage fight.

For audiogon, that’s not far from the truth. But it is happening at all forums, as we are not yet used to this written form of communication.

the world is a mess and the next shift/change has been artificially held back by the given mongers of power and control...... and the pressures are getting insane. This is reflected on the forums.

Here’s a post I wrote the other day, that dealt with this subject, to a large degree. It was a post following another... the prior being about how the difficult bits in audio seem to be the ultra expensive and ultra cheap.

Yeah, this is especially true in the loudspeaker category. Money talks. A person with money can make an expensive speaker and then market it, and it will go well, at least at the beginning."The monkey in man", as they say, is what make it so.
Since it is all about satisfying the finicky bits inside the depths of humans..the lowest priced highest quality product has the tougher hill to climb.

The more expensive stuff will be looked up to and expected to sound good at the same time money does not equate to having a good ear. As a matter of fact, the more money the product is pitched to (sold into) the less likely the person buying..has the ear to evaluate the product. (these are generalizations, not rules, they are averages. One can always find an exception to the average, the reality is that the exception should not be misunderstood as the average or rule. Note that Geoff attempts to tell folks that all the time. If the outlier tries to make it's exception the rule, then he sets them straight on that, and delivers the punishment of a fully warranted smack down. Ie, don't bring your possessive projected emotions to a logic fight. If you do, it will cost you. Or cost everyone)

So the most expensive gear can end up being mediocre, and then the opposite is also true.

That those with the good ear can and generally don’t have all the money and then they pursue what they can with the money they have. But since the human ear is finicky and personally built and wired..the low priced excellent gear can have such a tough time..that it is ignored or treated the same as low priced gear with bad sound from bad parts.

Audio is a tough business. Drug running might be a better way to reach financial security, or maybe selling $8k toilet seats to the military. I’m almost thinking, not quite sarcastically..that if one can make it in audio, then they might be good enough to make it in any other field.

I mean, the market for Bugatti Veyrons is bigger than extreme audio. That the number of extreme audio makers very likely well exceeds the number of extreme automotive manufacturers. Yet the car market for such items likely exceeds the audio market (potential buyers) by a factor of 10 or more.

So, like the cars, sex sells, and the people can’t drive the cars (they bought the sex) and the people buying the audio (they bought the sex) can’t actually hear it all that well. One can use a stopwatch to calculate how fast a car is, a 5 year old can do it. In audio, it’s invisible and the measurement instruments to act as that stopwatch - are known to not correlate exactly to how the ear works. So the stopwatch is totally ineffective.

Which leaves the companies that ’try to do the right thing’ and not sell into the sexiness of it and just sell to the idea and expression of quality at the lowest price leaves them hanging ---with a small customer base, it they have any at all.

Then the other awful part. that the market has become one of opinionated old men, who fight to the death on forums to pronounce their view as the only reality possible (hanging on for dear life for some small comfort zone where the world is OK --in their projection of it), so the infighting and pettiness can and many times does overcome consensus and reason. It is made the data point that: reasonable people seldom post [no point!] - but the difficult people post far more often.

If people want audio to survive, then stop tearing it down on forums. a healthy market, will have lots of outliers, by definition. Ones that you nor I may never warm up to. To tear it down on forums, is to kill it off via bitterness and spite, as it will NEVER take the shape my ’inner old man hanging on’ will ever be comfortable with.

It’s so bad, I expect that someone will likely come along and even angrily post their disagreement of some or all that I say.

People don’t generally understand that this method of communication, it is about 5k or 10k years or the realm of human familiarity in communication methodology. Our human mind and body does not yet know how to work this internet communication thingy. It will take some time, if it even continues at all.

The future is likely similar to VR or VR via neural implants. This (what you read right now) is the low data flow intermediary stage of it all. The matrix is coming, and it is coming sooner than you think.

So yeah, to properly have a grasp on the thing takes far more musing than what I have laid out here. This is just one sliver of a take on the flow in a complex integrated multifaceted problem or equation.

Coming into the thread and saying ’kill all charlatans’ (if one felt possessed to do so), is not much in the way of a solution, and as close to a zero of an opinion as can be advertised to all...

Importantly, none of what I type here...I don’t think that any of it is written in stone and that all of it is subject to more analysis and shifting about. Forever. If my understandings are not shifting all the time, based on new data and then new thinking... then I’m dead in the water, IMO. Being sure in things and turning myself into a textbook repeat box is a excellent way to kill myself before I’m in my grave.

I'm elderly and suffer from who knows what and I love it.
Unfortunately, it's the nature of internet platforms. I belong to an in person audio club and we all have different gear, different approaches to getting the best sound, different tastes, etc., but other than some good natured ribbing everyone is respectful and considerate of each other.  They are truly a super nice and helpful bunch of guys that I love spending time with.

It's so much easier to hide behind your keyboard in anonymity and drop whatever social filters you use in face to face communications. Try to act the same way here that you would in a face to face encounter. Also,  just like "real life" you can choose not to associate with blowhards and know-it-alls. Ignore them and don't get sucked into their miserable world. They don't need to be censored, unless they're truly abusive or violating forum rules. 
There is likely a high correlation between incident of mental health disorders and participants on any online community. 
That should be "incidents" and participants "in". You're welcome
This forum has become especially snarky with a lack of respect for members' thoughts and comments. 

And then there are the trolls, the instigators, provocateurs.

Your mother wears combat boots! 

Thanks for the great example!

I will read this when things get really dull maybe!!
What, its not dull enough already?
And my mother got a really good deal on those combat boots.
Well, folks, in the future we will all be listening under water. The speed of sound in water (at 32 degrees F) is about 3,170mph. In air, it's only about 740mph. This means we will all hear things faster by a factor of more than 4.
Good post, Gary (UncleDemp). The response by Big_Greg, beginning with "unfortunately, it's the nature of internet platforms," is of course correct. But the degree to which that seems to be true here is especially disappointing, given that generally speaking those interested in high quality audio might be expected to be more mature and better educated than those participating in forums devoted to most other subjects.

Best regards,
-- Al

Thanks for the great example!
Well, if I have offended you in some way, I apologize. I have a rather irreverent sense of humor.
Yes, a little civility goes a long way. Civility is not about dousing strongly held views. It’s about making sure that people are willing to respect other perspectives. No matter how stupid and wrong they are....:)
No offense taken, my apologies if I nipped at you for a well intentioned post. 

I’ll dial back my inner crybaby a bit! 

That was pretty awesome, well done!

Well said.  I recently posted a request for help in choosing speakers that were considered strong in classical music, particularly string instruments.  Many people were extremely helpful and pleasant, but some were downright viscous.  Keeping things in perspective, we're talking about audio equipment.  It's not really a topic that should elicit such visceral personal attacks.
Wish there was a good simple answer to this increasingly depressing situation but I do not believe there is.

Teo May well have nailed it in his first few opening sentences.

There are so many online personas that are just a means of escape from the drudgery of real life for so many people nowadays.

in todays age I just am not sure it can be fixed even with a purge.

Just to prove it....... GK, at least I have a mother..........
Cal91, sorry about that, I hope you got what you needed. The knowledge is here, no doubt. 

Almarg, who posted earlier, is a wealth of information - at least I think so. His expertise is way above my comprehension, but I can generally grasp the big picture. 
Uberwaltz, it’s a slippery slope.

(I think GK is a good cat, perhaps a bit eccentric!)

I’m not whining about different personalities- but meanness is a different kettle of fish. 

Ideally, this should be a place to take a break from the grind, not bring it here. I always assumed that’s the purpose of hobbies, but then again, I’m not known for my keen reasoning skills. 

I’m not pushing for a ‘safe place’, but we could take the edge off a little....
I think it is entirely possible that we now do have people who visit various forums just to act out in ways they know they could never get away with out in the real world.

Agreed I would expect and hope to have a much more mature audience here than say video gaming forums and for the very most part I think we do.

I am as guilty as any here for being stupid at times but I do not believe have yet brought outright mean to the table ( Sure someone will correct me ... Lol ).

You have to have differing personality or it would be a VERY boring forum indeed but there are limits to behavior which do get crossed at times.
Yessir, I agree. I’m sure I have a little mud on my skirt, too.

Keep moving forward and learning  is the best plan I have.

gary second favorite 'asm'...;-)
Careful, not to be become that which you despise.
I come here seeking free advice, and if I have to wade thru some muck in order to find a pearl of wisdom, so be it.
While the expected response will be 'this has already been covered', I would assume the following is required reading (gawking cover to cover) and has pictures and schematics as expected:

In short, nothing has changed for better or for worse in almost 70 years and in our world 'entropy' is the only certainty.

From page 3:

"The Reader's Forum will appear for the first time. There will be plenty of space for you to air your views and comments, and to toss in a hand grenade or brickbat if you choose. The names of the writers will be published, so that everyone will know who said what."

Among other gems (page 9):

"THE FORUM:   Here's the place to sound off about sound ... about music ... about whatever is on your mind ... about high fidelity or HIGH- FIDELITY. Here's the place to pass along to other audio -philes Our thoughts and suggestions on records, music, broadcasting, and, of course, audio. Whether there's something that should be done, or shouldn't, or if you just want to start an argument, The Forum is the place where you can make your ideas known to the largest group of audio enthusiasts gathered into the readership of any magazine."

And on page 8, "AS THE EDITOR SEES IT" whereby an 'audio-phile' is defined in print.
I’ve never seen it, but It is interesting.

I don’t want to put words in your mouth- it’s unsanitary! (Sorry for the silly joke!)

But I assume you attached the reading to communicate a point or opinion.

What is the takeaway?
Absolutely. It costs nothing to be nice 
Just to prove it....... GK, at least I have a mother..........

>>>>>That may very well be true. But you have zero sense of humor. You get your panties in a twist 🕺🏻 at the drop of a hat. No offense.
Post removed 
GK, I believe Uber WAS being humorous. Man, I'm telling you- you've got to lay off those Saturday night Shirley Temples! At least cut it back a bit, lest our only recourse be an intervention.....
And I think that proved my point exactly.
Well done GK......
Just for the record.

" only fairies wear boots"

Post removed 
Aaaannd the Civility Meter drops to zero....

I refuse to waste further time with you GK.
It would truly only prove the OPS,point quite succinctly.
Quit while you THINK you are ahead.
Over and out.
Now we return to your regular scheduled programming.
That’s what you said last year. You just can’t help yourself. Do I have the Kavorka? 😀
I'm reminded of the age old bumper sticker "Mean People Suck".  I strive to not be part of the Mean People Clan, no matter what the topic.  Doesn't make for a better existence.
Never go swimming in snark infested waters...
Beach forecast. Mostly sunny with scattered afternoon snarks. 🏄‍♂️ 🦈 🦈
There used to be a time when we all wore different hats. There was also a time when that phrase was known and appreciated.

We wore one hat when with family, and a different one when with friends. The same went for work, play, late night soirees, vacations, etc. 

The advent of the internet seems to have reduced the number of hats we wear, maybe even whittling it down to just one.

Having more hats to wear gave us different avenues to express ourselves and escape the constrictions of life. That old internet we all rely on now as a means to communicate has bypassed a lot of the interactions (and hats) we used to wear, and seems to have severely limited our ability to interact.

I would say "hats off to all" here who expressed themselves, but that would go counter to what I just said and hoped would help. 

We need more hats.

All the best,
Put me down for a light brown fedora!

I agree with you, times have changed. I recognize your user name, and I appreciate the things I’ve learned reading your posts and threads in which you participated.

Speaking of hats, I’ve always wanted to be a hat guy. Can’t pull it off, but oh how I want it. Ha, some things are not meant to be!
Why is it when you wear a hat, you can't feel it until you take it off?