It looks like a debate to me.


I'm more interested in hearing the viewpoints of people that have earned stripes in the audio industry rather than faceless hobbyists.  Am I alone in this?

https://imgur.com/V0iwWex
Previewfuzztone
Can't follow the link, not here at work anyway. Your post is clear as mud. It seems to imply you are more interested in hearing from people with a profit motive than disinterested enthusiasts. A questionable approach but we all have our quirks and I doubt you are alone. You would not be alone in questioning the value of quality wire, multiple subs, any number of things. You would not be alone in thinking numbers matter more than truth. You would not be alone in a lot of things. Just don't go looking for me there.
I suppose the answer depends on the question.  Want real user feedback?  Ask us faceless hobbyists.  Want a name to drop to verify your choices?  Read an article by someone who agrees with you.  
You are probably not alone, but your posts begs the question, if you find commentary here of little value (to you of course) why do you waste your time here. Just to validate your opinion perhaps? Personally I'd rather read a good book or listen to some music.
I love the debate here. Not the stuck up attitudes.
millercarbon especially
Assuming I can't hear cables or don't have multiple subs.
Get off it.
At least no one assumes anything about you. We know for sure.
We're here to learn. Not to be closed minded jerks.
Well this is certainly going well.
From vaguely confusing to clearly alienating, in record time!

Never fear, I do not take it as an insult. How could I, when its so patently false?! Especially now the pattern emerges so clearly. Its a total lack of reading comprehension.

So fuzztone, here’s what you do. Go find the post where I assume you can’t hear cables. Or assume you have multiple subs. Or heck, where I am closed minded.

You just wrote me off as a closed minded jerk. Which strikes me as rather closed minded, and the kind of a thing a jerk would say. But what do you say we set all that aside and have a little teachable moment instead? Are you up for it? Find the evidence. Cut and paste. How hard could it be?
Post removed 
Digital storage and solid state electronics.
All you did is infer.
You would not be alone thinking your way or the highway.
Who needs it?
I'd rather listen to a debate among professionals that are used to dealing graciously with the public.
That was the point that you can not seem to comprehend.
Although laffs are good.
Har har.
Post removed 
If you could not open the link to read the topic at hand....why comment?  Seems pretty silly to say anything if you don't know what the conversation is about.
I am the opposite regarding guidance from an industry professional.  Anyone who works with/for organizations is affected by the culture. At some point there is training or a mentor relationship that imparts bias. Add money to the mix and everything changes. I absolutely prefer listening to a faceless hobbyist driven by their passion for music and the audio experience.  Often these faceless people are humble, polite and do not come across as thinking they are the smartest person in the room.  My long term experience with salesmen has been less than positive. So much so that I go to the car lot on Sunday Night if I ever want to take a look.  
  If you could not open the link to read the topic at hand....why comment?  Seems pretty silly to say anything if you don't know what the conversation is about.  


Like you just did?

Because, turns out while my work PC wouldn't let me access it my laptop did and guess what? Its exactly what I said. The OP said its a debate, the link calls it a seminar, but that's nothing compared to all the other distortions he's posted since. The OP is a total reading comprehension fail, and I nailed it. 

The OP said, " I'm more interested in hearing the viewpoints of people that have earned stripes in the audio industry rather than faceless hobbyists." So I nailed that one too. 

Its now clear the OP can find not one thing I've written, not one tiny bit of evidence, to back up his baseless insults. And you bryhifi, neither can you. You can't even be bothered to figure out what is going on here! Which is, some noob with zero cred and even less knowledge totally misread the situation and has been found to have zero support- other than from equally unmoored souls such as yourself.

All that remains now is for gk, dj and the usual suspects to turn this into another echo chamber of irrelevance.

Tuning out, I am!


Fuzztone, FWIW I believe that some folks in this forum have found an output to express themselves and fulfill their pent up need for recognition (from strangers no less). They post frequently, speak authoritatively, and often at great length, on most every audio subject. Their threads might have some value. Who knows. Certainly not me. I must sign off now and get back to Malamud’s "The Fixer" for something more emotionally uplifting. :-)
I called "it" a debate. The linked notice says that it's a seminar featuring a debate.
BFD to mc.
Har har
His distortions are self inflicted.
Good luck tuning out without a tuner.
phcollie Your views are valid for you. I've had great relations with every audio salesman I"ve ever purchased from.
Car salesman? Really?
I just think that a give-and-take between pro designers will be more educational then layman's experiences. But both are valued by me. Please extract your boobs from the wringer now.
Quite the prima donna. So emotional! Whew! 😡
newbee
I have observed the same things as you from evidence. No problem there.
I just find the noob with no cred and zero knowledge to be no more than a paranoid belligerent name caller that only lives to criticize non disciples.
Funny as in he makes me laugh.
At him.
I''m here to absorb knowledge,
not PRETEND that I know it all

Time for some popcorn...

In brief: nothing more than another regurgitated no decision inconsequential editorial quickly forgotten both past and present. Simply put, It’s just an anniversary revisit bake-off / shootout no “winner” decision between two selected amps,

In detail...

(1) There is no “ debate” here IMO, because it’s just another mag review personal opinion that cannot be applied to anything more than an isolated A-B shootout totally limited to two amps . Intuitively, there is no “right” or “ wrong”.

The OP title and subject matter lead-in is edited and truncated from the full Monty, and thus incomplete to an arguable point of being misleading.
I looked up the Magazine cover found at ”....https://www.stereophile.com/content/january-already-0

the mag full cover headline actually fully reads:

“.... The accuracy vs musicality debate re-examined ....CAMBRIDGE vs CARY if either of these amplifiers is right ... then the other must be wrong...

”....Yes, the January 2019 issue of Stereophile is hitting newsstands, mailboxes, and tablets this week. And to celebrate the 25th anniversary of our going from a digest-sized publication to a full-sized one, we have recreated the cover of the January 1994 issue, the "musicality vs accuracy" debate as strong today as it was a quarter-century ago. The 25th anniversary edition of the same Cary tube amplifier is featured on the cover and in this issue’s review section, but instead of the solid-state Krell we had on the 1994 cover, we have the solid-state Cambridge Edge A integrated amplifier which is also reviewed in this issue...”

(2) AUDIOGON already had its Jurassic era numerous repeated rehashes on this all too oft-related ( ... dare I say also “boring”) subject matter .. “Accuracy vs. musicality”

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/accuracy-vs-musicality
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/accurate-vs-musical#1186476
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/musicality-in-a-system-what-is-that#1162099

(3) STEREOPHILE has also had its periodic redux preceding their Jan mag latest redux version. ... with no further advancements... for example
https://www.stereophile.com/content/whos-right-acccuracy-or-musicality

(4) Ditto on another predictable no-decision forum blurb on AUDIOKARMA

https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/musicality-vs-accuracy.850033/

my takeaway

There is no “debate” here ... Rather it is just another too oft-repeated rehash of the same and intuitively obvious summary that there is no “right” or “wrong”, but with another attention grabbing mag cover editorial tagline.
These redux editorials are repeating either one or more of the following:
* it is an opinion maker, but with a predictable disavowing potential of any bias leading to a draw,
* it is ultimately also predictable to a position of being wishy-washy reconciliatory between contrary viewpoints or standpoints,
* it is arguably (and hopefully) balanced in its analysis of evidence and events, and
* Regardless, it is a just a magazine tagline infused to entice a reader .... manifest or otherwise, crusading in its thrust.
Lots of different ways to get great sounding music. Enjoy them all I say! 🙂

geoffkait19,984 posts02-29-2020 2:19pmQuite the prima donna. So emotional! Whew! 😡
ROFL! 😄
i’m interested in all the different points of view, but the confusing part here is the responders who claim to have technical knowledge and experience but do not
  Fuzztone sent me a PM about how wrong I was.  I feel special.  
I'm leaving this thread alone.
Not because I don't want to mess with it.  I do.

I just don't know what it means.
Erik

me 2

i had it nailed as ego pissing g match

but then AKG said some well thought out stuff.... like why does my reptilian brain crave fifth order distortion in a 2d magazine cover ?
If a topic interests me, I read everything.
Take what i want.
Leave the rest.
akg
I have no idea what you're referring to.
I only posted a link to an announcement about an upcoming event at Axpona. At this rate it might not even happen.
All of your 2019 references are wrong.
I know an ER doc at the hospital with the latest midwest Covid-19 case. It's within 10 miles of the Renaissance.
No one should ever listen to what I say about audio stuff. However, I would say this. All involved should just bow their heads and move on. So be it as it may.
@tooblue ....no kidding....*phew*  Helluva light show from the sparks...;)

@perkri...share that popcorn? *munch*  Thanks....care for a beer? *S*

@erik_squires ....pull up a chair...beats the WWF for 'slams'...*G*

@tomic601 ...it's like watching the neighbors get into a scrap..sit by an open window and listen....

"Whose winning?"

Who cares?! *LOL*
"What we have here...is a failure to communicate."
My take is that it’s nice to not have to choose.  I enjoy reading the reviews on the tech sites but I also like to read what audio enthusiasts have to say about their daily life experiments and discoveries.  Like my less-than-advantageous listening room— I know that I’m not the only one faced with this, and I want others’ suggestions for work-arounds.  As for the friction that can occur, I just assume that is part of what makes people passionate about things.  I’d rather hear from the passionate people, as they probably have a lot to say. I learned at school and at work that some of the people I learn the most from are not the easiest to converse with, but it’s worth the effort and I try not to take it personally.
Post removed 
Remarkable how brave we become when we're hiding behind the internet. A lot like how every dork who gets on a Harley suddenly becomes cool.
In the immortal words of Rodney King, "Can't we just all get along."
An encouragement, which I attempt to follow myself when offering what I feel is indisputable advice, knowing that a certain percentage of the Agon population will no doubt disagree, to add "YMMV" or the phrase, "IMO" or similar to the post. It is relatively easy to avoid needless offense when making a strong statement if a bit of respect for those with differing opinions is given.  :) 

I have been guilty a few times of making absolute, harsh, or critical statements without adding that caveat to buffer the criticism, and the result has been predictably negative, rancorous. I am trying to be consistent in that regard now. I encourage our people who hold strong opinions and feel that they have some special insight in regard to systems to show some consideration about how they provide the community their opinions. 

Now, in regard to the OP, I don't see anything terribly earth-shattering about the issue. Not surprising at all to me that SS/tube and perhaps what we could call variant specifications yield divergent opinions on performance. The spectrum of performance, the variety of systems, and the preferences of listners/reviwers is SO vast that I would be shocked if such things did not happen! 

I recall being at a reviewer event where a new product was on demo in various modes. I thought the whole thing rather insipid as to the performance change to the system between modes, and I suggested that the change in modes was no greater than I could achieve with a change of a power cord or two. The other reviewers were effusive in their praise for the sonic changes, so I was distinctly in the minority. I couldn't help but think the reaction was overdone in a bid to solicit a review.

While I wasn't impressed by the different modes, I thought the unit might be interesting to review for other reasons as to its design, as it is unknown in a solo demo how it might compare to other products. But, the experience reinforced the fact that there is a WIDE spectrum of experience with components and there will be no universality to perception of their performance, even among reviewers regardless of specs or purported superior performance modes.

And finally, my contribution to a happier world;  YMMV      :) 
Folks,
All sensory perceptions are filtered through our brain of biases and past experiences .  That is what subjective implies.  This hobby or passion of ours may have different motivations for different people, and those individual choices should all be fine and tolerated.  There is no absolute right or wrongs here, and to engage in "argumentum ad hominem" makes no sense....perhaps the late Harry Pearson was correct, in that the "Absolute Sound" is that of the live experience, which I believe can be approached but never equaled in the home listening room.  It is all a REPRODUCTION...whatever pleases each of us, and whatever each of us finds "better" or "worse" is fine with me.  Perhaps we should chose to say which items we prefer, not which are better....Is one great artist better or worse than another, or does one please us more?  I one delicious meal better or worse than another, or does it just please us more?  Similar themes, I think....PEACE
Most people have not (rpt not) heard a truly great system. I’m not going to speculate why that is. They might think they have, sure. That’s why the old wives tale of live music being the absolute sound persists. It’s like a virus. No live venues sound alike so how can live music be the ideal. Do you think a crappy venue still sounds better than a good home system? Give me a break? There is no absolute sound. Yes, I know what some of you are thinking, “But how do you know? Are you out of mind?”
... Take all comments with a grain of salt and a grain of truth.

Verify with your own experience... be open to others statements (ask if by experience or by opinion and be 50% sure they are truthful in their response) and remember things that were heresy years ago SOMETIMES PROVE OUT...

Could # of responses/forum comments be relevant?
" could # of responses/forum comments be relevant? " only if they were relevant to begin with.
tooblue:

... SHARP-POINTED truth: I guess I'd agree that a comments' relevance to topic should be of paramount importance (and value to the 'conversation'/forum discussion)...
In through the nose out through the mouthand repeatMMM... Im feeling better already!
Now this a lot more constructive than grade school name calling.  I endorse relevancy. Next time I'll post more facts to avoid confusion.

Rather have feedback from Industry professionals vs hobbyists

Pros vs Joes, huh?

Why? Are all of them in agreement with each other now?

OP > If alienating people is not your forte, hang in there. It will be soon enough as you are definitely headed in the right direction by candidly dismissing our humble faceless & ofrten selfless pundants.

Or maybe This is just a tad shortsighted post whose intent is to infuse mor activity from manufacturers and or designers into the fray. Well, good luck with that.

Whenever a pastime revolves around personal opinion, be it faceless those of our hobbyists or a our designer's opinion, it is tainted by subjectivity and as such is a thing as malleable as human morality and as capricious as the winds

IOW, to which individual at the end of the day, will you subscribe simply on faith be it producer or end user?

If I want to get candid experiences, knowledge, or insights on something I know nothing about, or not very much, and Iíd not care to send off letter after letter to this makerís offices or that one, the quickest path then is to glean information from those who have actually fixed a transmission, built a house, recarpeted their living room, or here, put together a few or even many various audio arrangements in likely quite different rooms, locations,etc. and on various levels of investment.

Additionally, users, members, or just the run of the mill enthusiasts often do not have anything to gain from imparting their EXP via associated or various threads, as might those whose product sales are how they keep their refrigerators filled, their lights on at home, and their children fed.

OJT ëhands oníí first hand EXP or training used to be considered the most practical   form of education and in many arenas, still remains the best teacher.

Lets reviewÖ
makers, designers manufacturers and dealers all have a visible and valid motivation to further their professional interests, albeit many of that ilk on these pages do not share their technical eXP as self serving advisements, or tips.

But then really, whoís to say which is extolling the truth and who is embellishing or slandering facts?

Time, application and your own outcomes will validate other folks input/feedback on what ever topic you chase provided you pursue the path or paths others supply you their EXP.

OrÖ are you the sort which only follows those whose superficial credentials or social wcircles intimate they are elete, even if arguably so?

It costs nothing to ask things around here, and it costs less to receive the feedback this forum promotes. Within it are numerous highly skilled, experienced well intentioned individuals whose routine motivation is to help another.

as viable in any darkened web forum there will be that element of nay sayers and dissidents, so assimilate accordingly.

some members here are current or former technicians, designers, producers, dealers, engineers, etc., often found in the guise of mere members of an online audio oriented public forum.

Iíd not wish to alienate these from assisting me going forward as cases may be down the road.
given the price one pays for information embedded on these pages, this joint is a veritable gem!

enjoy!
Kaitty's system: Grado SR60 or 80 utterly mediocre headphones with the foam ear cushions removed and a Sony Walkman CD player. Right Kaitty? There might be green sharpie on the edges of the  CDs which certainly elevates this system to true High End so yeah, he knows what's what.
Wolfie is a master debater.
Remove the "de" and you are spot on.
Since I was not invited (for good reasons as you will see) to the seminar I'll just make this post-


It should not be a debate. If you have a tube amp that 'measures poorly' yet seems to sound just fine (as has often been seen in the pages of Stereophile) and an amplifier that measures just fine and is really 'neutral' but not particularly musical then you have two amplifiers that sit at the opposite spectrum of the same problem, which is distortion and what to do about it.

In this regard with **all** amplifiers the sound of them is all about how they distort.


In this regard each has chosen a different path. On the one hand, a tube amp that 'measures poorly' is probably not running any feedback to suppress distortion, and one might want to know why not? The answer is that feedback adds distortion of its own, and what it adds is highly audible in the form of higher ordered harmonics (at low levels) and IMD. The human ear is keenly sensitive to both types! OTOH, the ear **isn't sensitive to the lower orders (2nd, 3rd and 4th), which is why that tube amp measured so poorly as it probably has much more of these in exchange for keeping the higher ordered stuff inaudible.

The solid state amp employs feedback as it has to to prevent it latching to the power supply rails (which would cause it to have a lot in common with a rock) and to allow it to be linear. So it inherently is much lower distortion, but now most of that distortion is of the form to which the ear is keenly sensitive, and comes off as brightness and harshness, since the ear converts all forms of distortion into tonality.

Again this should not be a debate! The common problem here is that neither amplifier has enough gain bandwidth product and so is a set of compromises. Tube amps, unless OTL (Output TransformerLess) usually have poor gain bandwidth product. Solid state amps usually do much better in this regard. But neither has enough- and this is what that looks like: without enough gain, you can't apply enough feedback so that the application of feedback allows the amp to correct not just for simple distortion but also the distortion caused by the application of feedback! Did you get that? Its sounds recursive because it is. Feedback can correct for itself if **enough** is applied. That value seems to be a minimum of about 35dB and 40dB is better.


But that means that the amp has to have a lot of gain so that once you blow 35dB or more away you still have enough to work with the preamp and speaker, so the open loop (no feedback) value should be at least 60dB!


Now we come to the other bit of that gain bandwidth product thing: bandwidth. Sure you can make a tube or solid state amp with that much gain, but when you run feedback around it there is an enormous possibility that it will oscillate. The reason is that when there is gain there is also phase shift caused by limited bandwidth- the more gain you add, the more the bandwidth is compromised. The phase shift can thus cause negative feedback to become positive feedback at some high frequency- and then it oscillates. A related idea in amplifier design is that of 'phase margin' which is to say that if by the application of feedback the amp oscillates, it has insufficient phase margin. OTOH phase shift causes the feedback to become positive rather than negative. 


So one way to deal with this is avoid feedback. You avoid brightness and harshness because the lower ordered harmonics mask the higher ordered harmonics. But the amp will measure poorly unless extreme steps are taken to suppress it by other means.


The other way is to stare down the gun barrels and add the feedback- now it 'measures' well but it has a brighter and harsher presentation than real life.

IOW **neither** amp is right! So this shouldn't be a debate. Instead we should be looking at the measurement standards- its obvious that since the ear is insensitive to lower ordered harmonics that they should not have the same value in the measurement as higher orders; IOW the various harmonics should be weighted. But in addition, the 2nd and 3rd in particular can mask the presence of the higher orders, so those harmonics should be in attendance in order to allow for something that sounds like music instead of electronics. But our current measurement regime takes little of that into account. In a nutshell, in this regard one of the most important aspects of human hearing (the fact that the ear senses higher ordered harmonics to gauge sound pressure) is ignored in order for the spec sheets to look 'nice'.


So this should not be a debate so much as a seminar on informing the public what is really going on. Sadly, it will probably just be a debate.
Fantastic post, Ralph (Atmasphere).  It should be a "stickie," if that were possible here.  And FWIW every word of it makes perfect sense as far as I am concerned.

Best regards,
-- Al

@atmasphere has pretty well spelled it out; here’s the Cliffs’ Notes version, IMHO....

-The manufacturer makes a product; ’cherry picks’ the details.
-The vendor displays/demo’s same in the best way possible.
-The buyer ’places’ his/her bet on the item.
-The likelihood that the outcome is Great or Perfect is subject to items’ final location, application, and attached components.
-Buyer forms final Opinion of outcome.
-Buyer posts on AG to cheers/jeers.

That ought to cover it....
It should not be a debate. If you have a tube amp that ’measures poorly’ yet seems to sound just fine (as has often been seen in the pages of Stereophile) and an amplifier that measures just fine and is really ’neutral’ but not particularly musical then you have two amplifiers that sit at the opposite spectrum of the same problem, which is distortion and what to do about it.


I will argue that we are also more susceptible to damping factor and speaker/cable impedance than we think we are, but I, in a very lage part, agree with Ralphs point, that the distortion profile is probably a large, large factor in likeability.

In large part I think my own love/dislike for certain amps, and those fanboys on the opposite side of the room probably has to do with exactly what @atmasphere is talking about here.