I have been using different materials under components for years along with different footers. I seem to like a bit of what each material had to offer but none pleased 100%. I got hold of Caterham 1700 and ordered a Neuance Beta. I told Caterham that I was going to use brass cones. I changed my mind and ordered a Mana Mini table. Caterham said he would have to trim the Beta so it would fit the Mana mini table. He did not charge me and even paid shipping. I have been using this combination for two weeks. Redkiwi has said what I would say but much better. IMO this combo does it all. This is one of the best investments I have made in audio. I have spent $1000s on a piece of gear that could not deliver like the Neuance and Mana. I have not heard other shelves as I have always made my own. I have no desire to hear other shelving. I was always of the opinion that thick, heavy shelves and materials was the way to go. No light weight whimpy stuff. I was wrong. Dead quite, dynamic, and that I can't stop tapping my feet is what this combo delivered. Have not seperated the Beta from the Mana. All listening was with the Mana. I had this combo on a piece of granite. Another improvement came when I took this combo off the granite and spiked it to the concrete floor. I gotta get more of this stuff for my other components. |
Hey guys/gals: I will be ordering the Neuance shelves next week as soon as I make up a shelf template and get it in the mail. I had the Studio Tech rack that I purchased from Audio Advisor mig welded into a one piece unit by my auto mechanic. It already comes with upturned brass spikes for all of the shelves as well as brass spikes for the floor. I gave up on making my own rack when I saw this one on sale and realized that this (the welds) was all that it needed. I am on a pretty tight budget for the equipment move, but saved enough on the rack to start off with two of the Neuance shelves. My brass cones will be going on either the mini system or the micro wave oven, I haven't decided yet. |
Whew. I have been trumpeting it, I must admit. It is a bit of a relief that you agree, Jadem6. I had tried almost everything I could lay my hands on without importing things myself - MDF, particle board, concrete, glass, laminated glass, marble, corian, granite, sandstone, soap stone etc. I had tried bladders, seismic sinks, sorbothane, mass-loading, elastomers, sand and shot. I had tried more cones and pods than I care to remember. But I felt, that each was just changing the sound, not eliminating the effects of vibration. I cannot say Ken's Neuance shelves are the only product to do this, but finally I found something that worked. The approach is in the light/rigid/damped school, which always results in speed and detail, but usually results in resonant peaks. Not so with the Neuance shelves. You get fast, detailed and neutral. Somehow the vibration effects, that all other things I tried just shifted around, have been substantially removed. |
I just re-read all the posts from 2/13/01 to 3/08/01 and in all honesty am not sure what has happened here. It would seem to me that Dr.A was able to appear above board in the end after trying to dodge the questions posed and underhandedly promote a product for his own personal gain. At the same time Ken came off as way to forgiving and a man of incredible integrity and control. Some how Dr. A was able to fill a full month of advertising his products name without really telling me anything, and Ken chose not to self promote his fantastic product at all. Will the good guy win? I hope we all boycott Dr. A's product until we recieve a full and honest apology, and maybe an honest aproach to marketing. I'm still at a lose as to what I've learned regarding Isolation vs. Absorbtion, and that saddens me. I for one am asking Dr.A to take a period of time off from or site until he can learn the value of honesty and fair play. For all the good you Dr.A could have brought to this discussion, I see nothing of value added by your free month of self promotion. I will end now before I start to say things not intended to say.
J.D.
P.S. Thank-you Redkiwi for all your guidence on shelving. My Neuance shelf has settled in very nicly and all the attributes you identified have come through. Also for the sake of Ken's lack of self promotion, I will step in and take over. THE NEUANCE PRODUCT IS A FANTASTIC SHELFING PRODUCT OUT PROFORMING MY OTHER SHELF PRODUCT AT ONLY HALF THE COST. A GREAT PRODUCT, SUPER PERSONAL SERVICE AND AN HONEST TIME LINE. KEEP UP THE GREAT WORK KEN, AND PLEASE EVERYONE TRY THIS PRODUCT, YOU'LL LOVE IT! |
Hello Ken,
I hope my placement of the review did not offend you. I have very little time to converse through typing as I wanted to provide you a third party’s investigation into the merit of our product and studies and provide some answers to your questions.
I really enjoyed your analogy of our product function as I now can see a clear almost parallel realization about both companies’ desires for maintaining musical performance and dynamics throughout the playback process.
It would be fun to position you and our Senior Designer, Brent Riehl, in the same room and start the tape rolling. I am sure the results would be flat out encouraging.
Are you attending the Le Festival Son & Image this month in Montreal?
If so we can hook up there. If not maybe at the show in New York?
I look forward to meeting you in person.
Very truly yours,
Robert Maicks
Star Sound Technologies, LLC |
No, Redkiwi, it wasn't just your sensibiities that were offended by that shamless plug. Mine, too. Pardon my harping on ethics yet again, but as with basic courtesy toward our fellow man ethics are apparently in short supply these days and the availability is seemingly rapidly dwindling. Somewhere down the line being self-centered and super egocentric became not only socially acceptable, but almost admired. By some people that is; not by me. Just call me old fashioned.
Add yet another business to the black list... |
Ken, you are being too kind. For a manufacturer to post a review of their product on this site and get away with it is appalling, much as I was interested in reading it. Am I getting too concerned about the thin edge of the wedge? Maybe. But this company does not seem to have any shame or ethics, or perhaps it is just plain dim. |
Rcm,
Thank you most kindly for posting the Inner Ear report.
I find your Coulomb based model intriguing.
I am,however,*as yet* unconvinced that my own assessment of the mechanisms at work differs to any significant degree in the actual application(ie-rapid evacuation/selective broadband filtering/damping within the leg structure/rigid grounding to earth).
In the development of my own product, I use a model which aligns itself quite closely in philosophy with that which you propose tho the approach is signifcantly different.The main thing is that those models work consistantly and predictably for each of us.
I found conceptual agreement in your T.H.E. Show sample and wish you much success.I believe that we have far more in common than would be indicated by the unforunate turn that this thread has taken.
As I view your product, it is also one of the very few concerned with the preservation of temporal, dynamic and microdynamic qualities of music reproduction as opposed to the preponderance of devices on the market that ulitize the bludgeon approach to isolation or tune for special effects to the detriment of the vitality and communicative qualities of the music.
Regards,
Ken Lyon
GreaterRanges/Neuance |
Per your request Ken, a description of Sistrum Platforms
Printed With Permission / Ernie Fisher - Editor
THE INNER EAR REPORT
Authorized reprint from:
Volume 13 #2, 2001
85 Moorehouse Drive
Scarborough, ON. M1V 2E2
Canada
Tel: (416) 297-7968
www.innerear.on.ca
Sistrum Component Platforms & Audio Points
Source: Star Sound Technologies, LLC – Canada & US
Rating: 95% effective
Both Sistrum Platforms and Audio Points are designed and made by Star Sound, a company which specializes in resonance control for audio components before they are assembled into a system. They manufacture stands for components, loudspeakers, equipment racks, little cones for small components and parts used in audio and video equipment. The company has been involved in studies of vibration and resonance influencing A/V components since 1989.
We received speaker stands (actually small platforms) and a four – tier shelf about three months ago, though we only used the speaker stands in our studio set-up and with great success, we may add.
At the recent consumer electronics show in Toronto, we set up a rather elaborate system with Audio Aero monoblocks, Wyetech Lab Opal preamplifier, JMLab Mezzo Utopias, Audio Aero Capitole CD player (reviewed in this issue), speaker cables by AudioQuest, interconnects by Nordost (Quattro Fil), AC cables by JPS Labs, line conditioners by Globe Audio and speaker stands by Sistrum. The component stand was assembled by Star Sound’s Brent Riehl from the US and Rick Schultz from the Canadian office.
When we first auditioned the system, we thought that its resolving capability was a little less than what we anticipated. The Star Sound folks were at the show and we allowed them to see what they could do to improve the system’s resolution.
First, they removed the Black Diamond Racing cones, which we had under the Audio Aero monoblocks, and replaced them with their Audio Points – three under each power amplifier and smaller ones under our two line conditioners. The Sistrum Stand, also used in our show set-up comes equipped with Audio Points and three were used under the CD player, another three under the preamplifier’s power supply and three under our preamplifier.
Appearance:
First, the Audio Point cones. They are made of solid brass and are available in 28 size and thread combinations so they can be used with virtually all speakers and/or electronic components. The sizes vary from miniature to 2 inch cones with assorted diameters.
The Sistrum Stand comes with four or six platforms and consists of three rods which accommodate triangular platforms (stands). The same platforms can be used under speaker cabinets or single components and offer adjustable Audio Points to literally suspend the equipment placed on top. The hollow rods are made of stainless steel and accommodate an inner core which connects and couples the top platform to the Audio Points at the base. The design is beautiful, despite the fact that it is based on function. Which brings us to the sound…
Technology:
The design is based on a physics phenomenon known as Coulomb Friction named after Charles Augustin deCoulomb, a French physicist 1736-1806. In 1789 Coulomb retired from his positions as military engineer and superintendent of waters and fountains and dedicated all his time to scientific research. He was known for his work on electricity, magnetism and friction; and he invented a magnetoscope, a magnetometer and a torsion balance that he employed in determining torsional elasticity and in establishing Coulomb’s law.
The unit of quantity of electric charge, the coulomb, is named in his honour. The absolute coulomb, the current U.S. legal standard, is the amount of charge transferred in 1 second by a current of 1 ampere; i.e., it is 1 ampere-second. Coulomb’s law in physics states that the electrostatic force between two charged bodies is proportional to the product of the amount of charge on the bodies divided by the square of the distance between them. If the bodies are oppositely charged, one positive and one negative, they are attracted toward one another; if the bodies are similarly charged, both positive or both negative, the force between them is repulsive.
Coulomb’s law applies exactly only when the charged bodies are much smaller than the distance separating them and therefore can be treated approximately as point charges. When combined with principles of quantum physics, Coulomb’s law helps describe the forces that bind electrons to an atomic nucleus and atoms together into molecules.
Armed with this information, the Star Sound folks reasoned that most coupling or isolation devices currently on the market work by modifying or changing resonances. However, some become resonance storage devices which allow only some, if any, resonances to be channeled away from the equipment.
The Audio Point is designed to “recognize” amplitude developed when the Coulomb Friction is drained from the equipment. When placed in direct contact under equipment, the AP directs the resonant energies’ into the surface on which it is resting.
In our set-up, the Sistrum Stand’s three hollow supporting steel rods were filled with “liquid iron” (about 2 quarts are needed). Star Sound states that crushed ore or liquid iron are the best substances with which to fill the steel supporting rods. As an alternative, different materials can be used for filling the rods. White silica, a pulverized dry glass, adds density to the main support rods; it is a non-conductive material which adds mass and stability and is recommended instead of sand.
For better stability, steel shot is recommended. Steel conducts energy to the grounding pathway and assures speedy transfer. Lead is not recommended for it is an energy absorbing material, thereby curtailing energy transfer – not appropriate for this system as the Audio Point and Sistrum Platforms (stands) conduct resonant vibrations from components to the steel shelves and then to the ground.
The Sistrum Platform is made up of a laser cut triangular structure and Audio Point cones. The design is said to accelerate the flow of energy to the outer steel support rods, thereby channeling harmful energy away from components.
Now let’s get to the real stuff…
The Sound:
Coned to the hilt, we auditioned the system and noted a number of improvements over an almost identical system auditioned in-house a few months earlier.
Firstly, the sound stage clearly heightened by a couple of feet, thereby presenting a more realistic portrayal of a live performance.
Secondly, as soon as the Black Diamond cones were replaced with Audio Points, resolution, especially in the lower bass regions, improved quite dramatically.
Thirdly, inner detail, articulation and sense of space and transparency became more readily perceived. We regarded the improved information as more authentic when compared to a live performance.
To ascertain effectiveness, we first removed the small cones under the line conditioner and noticed very little change. Next, we removed the speaker stands (platforms); and we agreed that poorer sound resulted. We then removed the Audio Points from under the amplifiers and felt resolution suffered. The Sistrum Stand is made up of parts which couldn’t be “auditioned” individually. However, since we had the CD player and preamplifier on ordinary shelves prior to the “tweak”, we know that an analogy is nonsensical. In other words, the stand works extremely well and should be considered an integral part of any high-end audio system.
The system sounded very good, before “tweaking”, but improved by a whopping 10 to 15% overall-considering the price/benefits ratio, a great deal.
Synopsis & Commentary:
It’s obvious to us that a lot of thought and significant amount of research time has been devoted to this unusual and effective rack system. Having said this, we’d like to point out that some tweaks are very effective and readily appreciable and some are almost inaudible to inexperienced listeners. Of the many “gadgets” on the market to improve sound, few, if any, are designed to correct all existing mechanically induced acoustical problems.
To correct or improve a system’s sound, it is wise to follow the same routine as when assembling a synergistic system – namely, careful selection. Thus, one type of resonance control device, such as a cone, isn’t going to work well with all system configurations. A somewhat hard sounding system will likely benefit from devices such as the Racing Cones, which will contribute to the overall timbre and sensitivity, but will also take the edge off frequency extremes.
A system with full-range speakers, musical sounding amplifiers – especially vacuum tube gear – and source components, however, will benefit more with cones such as the Audio Points.
Folks with spiked floorstanding loudspeakers, regardless of make, should replace the spikes with Audio Points, for the audible benefits here are considerable and quite appreciable.
It is every audiophile’s goal to place their equipment on resonance-free stands – and we know of none better that the Sistrum system which allows a logical arrangement by customizing the stand to fit the requirements. When completed, all components on the “shelf” are coned away from a surface, thereby eliminating vibration and the resulting resonances. Readers should remember that an audio system amplifies information, thus creating perpetual amplification of resonating bodies as well as an audio signal.
Though the Audio Point/Sistrum system takes a while to assemble and fine-tune, the results are worth every minute of invested time, as the system works very well, is versatile and it’s pleasing to the eye to boot. We believe it is a very handsome design which also manages to look very professional.
The Audio Point/Sistrum Stand’s real distinction, however, is how it enhances the enjoyment of listening to music.
Ernie Fisher – Editor
The Inner Ear Report |
Dr A,
Re:
>>>I didnt know just how many how many sales reps and manufactures work this site to promote.<<<
The only people *working* this site seems to be Starsound.In the months that I have been contributing here,I have let threads regarding my products to develop on their own, without intervention, even when it was being used in ways for which it was never intended.Unlike you, I use the forum for my own entertainment and post on topics unrelated to business.---
>>>"The real issue at hand is that you have questioned my personal credibility and that of the product I belive in..."<<<
The issue is that you have been behaving as a shill for Starsound.I have gone out of my way to avoid commenting on the Systrum's effectiveness,only the manner in which it is being promoted.---
>>>"...what i have discoverd and shared on this site seams to contradict conventional ideas..."<<<
What have you shared?I have asked directly for specific or experiental information pertaining to the sonic character,benefits and theory behind the Systrum device and have yet to receive a reply or answers to my questions from you.By doing so,I have given you the opportunity to share in detail the reasons for your enthusiasm and promote the product in a responsible manner, yet you resort to odd tactics to change to direction of the thread.Maybe you are confusing your "Dr Audio personna" for one of your other pseudonyms?Nowhere do I recall "Dr Audio" offering any explanation of the principles claimed nor even a reply that would indicate that you are familiar with its sonic or musical benefit.---
>>>"I am changing carrers and hope to work directly for starsound..."<<<
Finally, an admission of your commercial ties to the product.See, that wasn't so hard was it? If you had stated so with your first entry, this thread would not have taken the unfortunate course it has.I wish you success in your new endevour.---
>>>"You have said you were in the starsound room, you then being an expert in the feild know it works."<<<
I was not given a full demonstration and as you are aware , the uncertainty of show conditions can be most unfair to even the best of products.I heard a decent sounding room but could not make value judgement or pinpoint the contribution of the Systrum.---
>>>"... am I right, am I studied on this topic, am I honest,and does this systrum rack really work so well."(?)"<<<
Hmmm....perhaps it would be best if I refrain and leave it for others to decide for themselves.
Regards,
Ken Lyon
GreaterRanges/Neuance
|
Draudio, your post tends to indicate you have missed the point. I, for one, believe that vibration control can be regarded as the "great uncharted territory" for audiophiles. Your theories and those of others such as Neuance conform fairly closely with my own fumbling attempts to get an adequate solution to the problem. No one is rubbishing your product or scientific backing - except, ironically, yourself because of your scurrilous tactics. By using unacceptable (to at least me) tactics to promote your products you have cast a slur on your own products. Of course, others may disagree, and I am not trying to judge you but point out that the evidence is clear on this site that there are several people that do find your tactics unacceptable. But the point is you have done your products a disservice by your tactics. Now you have been "outed", you have an opportunity to act in an above-board manner and earn some credibility. I am happy to be open-minded and hope to hear more from you on this topic - but in a way that discloses your interest. I agree with Ken's suggestion above, that all you need to do is ensure you declare your interest in your sign-off to your posts. Then we will be able to respect your input. I would really like to see Ken and others such as yourself assist us to understand how to deal with vibration issues better. |
I am sorry for making you feel so threatend it was not my intent to. When I started to relay my passion for this idea it was not to destroy any credibility in what you have been able to acomplish with your manufacturing of stands or racks, I didnt know just how many how many sales reps and manufactures work this site to promote. Although what i have discoverd and shared on this site seams to contradict conventional ideas in some ways it actualy suports them I have helped explain some of the laws of physics that support isolation theory such as airborne resonance and coulomb friction "NAMED AFTER FRENCH PHYSICIST CHARLES AUGUSTINE DECOULOMB BORN IN 1736" I have shared and supported the platform for you products to have value based on science you sould know that. I di not say your were the best scientific approch as I do not belive that and for that I am sorry, convince me.
The real issue at hand is that you have questioned my personal credibility and that of the product I belive in,with no basis of fact simply suggesting science itself is vodo and that I am out to use big words. The people that you are suggesting can not understand me do not seem to share the opinion that this, with exception of one or two. is over thier heads in fact most of them interested have probablly started to educate themselfs to see if these sciences exist if they are in doubt I suggest you do the same. If you can build the argument you have tried on "site related" that all these facts I have pointed out will not be credible any more.Well I'm not Al Gore and your not president and I hope youy need khowledge and fact to win an argument here not just good diversion tacticts. It is anyones right to opinion people here are free to think suggest and even have commitment. My commitment is much larger than I could have ever thought possilbe I am changing carrers and hope to work directly for starsound as I belive in what they do.Currently this is the best I can do in your country just spread the word and anser questions just like everyone here I find myself losing sleep over a rack company I truly believe in. I live in canada but share this idea all over the world via internet so others may learn and enjoy as I have. I have educated myself on the principles of how it works. Becuse of my understanding of coulomb friction and forced dampened vibration I now consider myself experienced enough to share this Knowledge.
Tell me, with the exeption of hinerd sales of your product, and with some evidence to back it up, where these studies of science have went wrong.Without these studies of resonance and the fact that none of our tweaks would work without this interaction of them.
You must know this if you have even a resnonable under standing of what it is I am talking about if not look it up please.I urge you to discover the truth you may learn somthing!
Keep you ear tuned!
You have said you were in the starsound room, you then being an expert in the feild know it works. Then the fact remains that in order to feel like you have acomplised winning this argument it needs to be about who I am and ignore the real topic, am I right, am I studied on this topic, am I honest, and does this sistrum rack really work so well.
Yes! Yes! Yes! and Yes! Forgive me for being frank.
Draudio |
Please see my post "Not Sneaky Enough?" under Site Related. |
Draudio, since you have been challenged to let us know your connection with Sistrum/Audiopoints, but are neither confirming nor denying, then I suspect most readers of these posts will feel as I do, that your opinion is profit-motivated and that your posts have been an attempt to deceive Audiogon members. The trouble is, the Sistrum and Audiopoints stuff might be OK, but you are causing suspicion and disbelief to attach to anyone posting positive impressions about it here. |
And to answer the original Question Yes! There is proof and scientific evidence. A reveiw in The Inner Ear Report soon to be on www.innerear.ca will clairify for you.
Draudio |
I appreciate your imput, and value your thought. I will comply on a new thread as we are way off topic. However today I added a new idea I had to my listening room about 700 Brass screws straight into the joists, I listen in nearfeild and wow I mean "WOW!!!...". Try it if you can, a wack of them in the corner can realy reduce corner loading.
P.S. If your that curios right now, check my email address many have and soome have even called me knowing exactly who I am. A good tip for future curiosity you may have with identity isues unless someone is realy trying to be sneaky, their is quite a few all over these sites as you already know. Probably the majority my guess. I wonder if were just trying to sell each other on our ideas, that would be irony. However I would still be here preaching my passion and learning what I can.
Keep your ear tuned!
Draudio |
I would second the last two posts. I believe it's very helpful to have the makers of products relavent to the discusion to include themselves in the thread. It only will raise the level of knowledge for all of us, but I do want to know if the person on the other end is pushing a point for his/her personal gain. So a simple title like Ken's is great. I was reluctant at first of Redkiwi's posts because he talked so well of Neuance and had such extensive knowledge. It became apparent after some time that he was just an excited audio guy, much like me when I find something I want everyone to try. So please dealers and inventers continue your involvement, just let us know you have a stake in the product. J.D. |
With some hesitancy, I want to just support what Ken is saying. I am a bit hesitant, because it may be my repeated enthusiastic descriptions of Ken's products which have encouraged this suspicious promotion of the Sistrum gear and Audiopoints. When I started a thread on this topic, I had never heard of Ken or Neuance, but I was really looking for help from any poster who might have tried something that did the job well, and was particularly interested if someone could tell me that Polycrystal, Symposium or some other of the stuff I had heard of was the answer. I needed this help because I live in New Zealand and the only way I can try most of this stuff is by buying it. Without digging out the original post, my recollection is that Ken's first post on the topic was a genuine attempt to help me and encouraged me to pursue the light/rigid/damped shelf approach - an approach I had already suggested was what I thought was probably ideal, but I had had no success finding such a shelf previously. Ken did suggest his own Neuance shelf, but to his credit he also suggested other products from other manufacturers that he felt were also following the light/rigid/damped idea. In a later post Ken offered to send me a used shelf for the cost of the freight, so that I could try it. I was delighted with it and when I ordered two more I tried to pay Ken more fully for the first shelf, but he refused. I outline all of this because I believe Ken has acted totally honourably in introducing me (and some others) to his product through this forum. Like he and others here, I am suspicious of the way that the Sistrum/Audiopoints has been promoted on this site recently. I retain an open mind on the gear, but I reckon Ken is giving Draudio et al some good advice on how to be taken seriously, rather than being dismissed as posting shameless self-promotion. |
DrA,
Perhaps a simple "tag" at the end of a post would suffice when speaking on topics and products where those that might have a commercial interest are involved?
That has been my own approach and it seems to be an easy way for folks to weight my opinions.
My concern is that this forum not loose its value to its readers because of encroaching commercialism.I consider it a valuable, informative and entertaining resource for AG's community of audio hobbyists.
When I can assist or inform without actively promoting my business I often do so.
I also blather for my personal entertainment about non business related topics as any hobbyist would do without necessarily feeling the need to announce my background.
If my joining into a topic would result in actions that might be considered commercial activism, I will refrain from entering the thread.
In addition, I believe it would be acceptable to speak of my product/business ONLY if I respond to direct questions or to correct misstatements and always and only ON POINT.
Another area that should be acceptable is offering opinion and advice in the areas of general principles,applications and technologies in our given area(s) of expertice, again provided that we not advocate our own products specifically.
With honesty, respect and openness, I think that industry participation can be a positive thing for Audiogon but unrestrained commercialism would be a negative and even destructive element.
I hope you agree with me.
Best,
Ken Lyon
(caterham1700)
GreaterRanges/Neuance
|
Ok but first there is a thread here where we introduce yourself to the group and disclose our backgruond and what we do now.I cannont seem to find where it is please help.
Draudio. |
Dr.A,
While I had some time to wander away from my suite at T.H.E.Show on Saturday,I stopped by Starsounds room and gave the Systrum a look and listen in rm #1506.I found it interesting, even promising, considering the variables of doing these shows.
For the sake of the good people that are the real audiogon forum members, please expand on your previous statements that extoll on the virtues of the Systrum stand.
Why don't you tell us about the technology,since that seems to be the whole thrust of these testimonials?
Does it have something to do with the cute "Clef" design?
Better yet and more importantly,what do you think the Systrum does in your own system?
What are it's primary musical contributions and character?
What is the "difference" you heard? Why would someone want or need the device?
Please be specific. I rather not hear the pseudo scientific or commercial tripe that has been bandied about so freely to date.Just an honest assesment is all I ask.
Also ,do you have commercial ties to the company? I notice that you are currently selling an awful lot of JMLabs speakers ,Transparent and Straightwire cables,etc for being a typical hobbyist. Could it be that you have a Starsound/Systrum/Audiopoints dealership as well?
-Having a great time.
Best,
Ken Lyon
GreaterRanges/Neuance
www.neuanceaudio.com/ |
Just try it! I did and that is how I became a fan. The rest you will figure out for yourself. The concept did not seem to be to left wing to try, so If you agree try if not I understand. I get your point on the link to sistrum, what got my gander is that after all the money I have spent pursuing perfection a "Rack" made a difference. There are lots of testimonials already on this site from guys that have tried it. As far as disscusion about isolation I tried it I liked it but I no longer do it. I learned.
Have fun and keep your ear tuned.
Draudio |
Dr A,
I keep hearing mention of these fabulous technologies and for some curious reason,they are always linked to Systrum/Audiopoint products.
Would you explain what is new or radical about the principles involved or even just the basic concepts behind the product?
The Systrum looks like a decent rapid evacuation device but I see absolutely nothing to indicate any major advancement or breakthru technology.
Please correct me if I am wrong.
I would LOVE to discuss isolation theory with you.
;^)
Best,
Ken
GreaterRanges/Neuance |
Time will tell Caterhaml! As People get exposed to new things opinions change and past knowlede becomes just that.
Keep an open mind you might be supprised what technology brings to our small world. |
Hi Dekay,
Mana Acoustics,argueably the best built traditional style ferrous stand on the market(glass shelf character notwithstanding) uses an open L construction as well.There is an advantage to using open constructions rather than tubular and that is in reduction of "chamber" resonances.I consider this type of energy transfer relatively benign but they do impact on the ultimate effectivenss of the stand to a small degree(Somewhere recently Redkiwi stated his own findings that would seem to support this).Your approach should mostly be concerned for structural rigidity(particularly in the lateral/diagonal and a relatively low overall mass.
A little damping goes a very long ways to controlling any frequency related spikes by the strategic application of a small blob of blu tac to the legs/crossmembers or an inch or so of non clumping kitty litter/sand in a tubular construction stand.
Best,
Ken |
Hi Ken: So is that a yes on the metal "L" bar approach? Riveteer does actually ring just like a "bad" bell (I have done my fair share of Quasimoto impressions while putting it up and taking it down), but this is reduced when it is solidly locked together and would probably be reduced even further if welded into one piece. Tubular steel (when not tuned to do so) has less sustain than "L" bar but I do not feel like working with tubes. I have worked with both in my youth as a metal worker and later as a grocer. From what you and RedKiwi mention about mass though it seems that I would be better of with something smaller scale and lighter than Riveteer, which would be easier for me to work with as I do not intend on using power tools other than a drill. It would have more spring to it, whether this would be good or bad. |
"Ringing" is a myth.
Unless you plan to practice drumming on your stand during listening sessions, "ringing" DOES NOT OCCUR in a metal framed stand.What a rigid,spiked metal framed rack does do is to lower vibrational amplitude via the small points of contact with high energy sources providing an energy/vibration bottleneck.The natural resonant characteristic of steels will filter the energy into relatively high, primarily even order frequency bands that the shelf material and component "suspension" can more easily damp.Adding mass and damping material only provides the energy a storage medium where those energies are re-released back into the system at unpredicatable low frequency rates and over a longer timeframe, thus imposing itself into the music for a longer period before decaying and having greater power to disrupt component operation and the musical signal.Low frequencies have enormous power and cannot be stopped regardless of the amount of mass or type of damping material used.The remedy is to have structure that does not couple well to those frequency rates, hence the need for low mass design.
Stands from reputable manufacturers such as Standesign, Apollo,Mana, Audiotech, Sound Organisation, Target,etc., all accomplish the task very well. Their primary disadvantage has always stemed from the relatively simple shelving required to meet a broad market pricepoint rather than any imagined "ringing' problem.
Best,
Ken
GreaterRanges/Neuance |
Well, I have been looking at various pre made metal shelf units that are available and unfortunately the ones that I like are way over $1000.00. What I am considering trying is Riveteer such as is used in super markets as support for Maple shelves. I have assembled many of these over the years and the only concern that I have is that the metal had a tendency to "ring." The shelf itself would be contained in a closet so I do not know if this characteristic would be a problem. It could also be welded into a one piece unit as an option. Has anyone tried shelving such as this, it's basically just "L" bar with hole slots cut into it not unlike that used in bed frames. Another option would be to just build a lighter version out of "L" bar which could initially be bolted and then later welded into one piece. I cannot weld myself due to sensitivity to light but know a sculpture that would probably do it for me. |
Dekay, you can find out about them at www.audiopoints.com. They are a very well designed hard cone. I have tried them and they are pretty good as far as cones go. They work particularly well onto MDF shelves and in a clamp rack system - that is, to couple the component top and bottom to the shelves. This is a very different approach to the light/rigid one that I have been pursuing. I personally believe that use of a very hard or very soft footer only sounds better when applying them as a band-aid to fix a bad support structure. |
Nice post Rick, thank-you for the very informitive note. J.D. |
Rick: Is "audiopoints" a specific product? If so where may I find info on them? David. |
Transfer is key. Sceince dictates that all resonations or vibrations have a frequency. So all things must change the sound. Try throwing you cat under a component, the sound will change. Bad idea but a cup of water will work for this demo, fill it to the top using a tall glass then listen. Now empty the glass and replace it and listen again neat huh!
Yes the sound changes but what scenerio is more accurate they are both wrong because in both scenarios with the exception of my friend using the brass acorn nuts what most products do is resonate or change resonations altering sound like the water did and like the glasses.After trying audiopoints and noticing that they reduced distoration dramatically, I studied the physics and found they work every time you use them and unlike other stuff they do not add flavor (there own resonante frequency)becuase they are designed to drain or transfer vibration leaving you only with the music and are built upon proven laws of science and physics. There is no guessing involved someone has already figured it out. Try it! |
RedKiwi: Thanks for the info and the site. I am very enthused about the relocation as I will finally be able to experiment with speaker cable due to the shorter runs, plus I won't have to worry about the pets mixing it up with the gear anymore. |
Have a look at http://mana.co.uk/menu-f.htm , then click on Products, to see some pictures of the mana supports. |
Dan I have no idea what would happen if you put the Neuance in place of your MDF. I doubt it has been designed with that in mind. I really think you would only get a good result following my earlier suggestions. Ken (of Neuance) posts here under Caterham1700 and so he might wish to comment. Dekay, as you might guess there are very few racks that people bother to import all the way to New Zealand, one being Mana but they are expensive. But there is a firm in Auckland that probably makes about 50% of all audiophile racks sold in NZ, and the owner is a wonderful man who makes to order at no extra charge, so I usually just fax my designs off to him. I have come to believe that the best design is to follow the Mana example. That is, use 3mm thick L-section bright steel, about 18mm by 18mm. I think this sounds better than tubular steel, but the difference is not great. Even the typical commercial 1mm thick tubular steel racks sound OK with the Neuance, just a little different - generally a little thinner through the mids and less smooth on top - but the difference is not great. While logic might suggest using three points, I find four points is better, provided you are prepared to be meticulous about making sure the shelf sits equally on all four points. |
Yes Dan: I guess that I was being selfish:-) |
I second Dekay's last post. If it is a custom shelf then please post the details for the benefit of all. I have a MGD (metal threaded rods with the MDF Shelves) and maybe I could replace the MDF shelves with the Neuance Shelves with a little tweaking. Do you think that would be light a rigid enough? |
RedKiwi: I have yet to try an audiophile rack and until a recent idea that my wife had (placing the electronics in a hall closet that is located just behind the speaker wall) I could think of no way to incorporate one into our living room. I know that your rack is welded steel, but is it custom or is it readily available from a manufacturer? If custom would you be kind enough to mail me the details/specs on it when you have the time? I could take it from there and either have it made or possibly modify an existing design. I would love to try a "base" that adds a sense of consistency to this matter and since the installation would be in a closet, aesthetics is not an issue. Thanks, David. |
I cannot really disagree Dekay. Regardless of what you do there will be some vibration that gets through. The spectrum of this vibration may be sympathetic to one component and detrimental to the sound of another. This depends, I believe, on the natural resonance of the box used for the component and the internal methods of isolating boards etc. But I could be wrong, it may be that different brands of capacitors behave differently to different vibrations. But, I would add that vibration control is a mixture of minimising vibrations and making sure they are synergistic to your components. Therefore I don't see it as being a matter of only tuning the vibrations to a component - you may get a neutral result, but you will cause a lot of smearing of detail (I am not implying that that is your point Dekay, just setting up the extremes in order to make my point). I have always felt that there is a lot of validity to the light and rigid idea, but have never found the right shelf for the application. What I am saying is that if you use a light rigid welded steel rack (spiked up and down) and the Neuance shelf you will find you remove a lot of vibration and that you will also get a pretty neutral sound. To finally get this kind of result from the light/rigid concept makes the Neuance shelf a breakthrough product for me. From there you can tailor the sound to individual components by choice of footer and get a wide variety of results. But I have so far had excellent results with the rack/Neuance/E-A-R in three different systems. One has a carpeted suspended wooden floor, another has a carpeted concrete pad floor, and the other has a terracotta tiled floor. One has tubes/electrostatics, the other two have large mosfet amps driving conventional box speakers. One has a tube preamp, and the other two have solid state. Two have turntables and CD players, the other just CD player. One has a CD transport that has a soft internal suspension of the transport, the others are more conventionally mounted. Inside the boxes, some rubber mount the boards, some use more expensive elastomer... on it goes. In each case the reduction in peakiness, the reduction in smear and hence the increase in resolution has been impressive. In one case we were replacing bladders, in another we were replacing massively heavy sand-filled stands and in another were replacing light rigid stands with damped Corian shelves. In each case we found that whereas before there had been advantages to using Vibrapods or cones, that now they sounded gross and simple elastomer or rubber feet sounded best. I am not trying to win an argument here because I have no doubt that there are other ways that might sound better and maybe better shelves, and you may very well not like the sound of the light/rigid approach. But for me the sucessful execution of the light/rigid approach is the Holy Grail because I find the others (such as the bladder or massive approaches) can be successful in obtaining neutrality (and reduce peakiness), and can even do quite well in reducing smear, but they fail badly at being true to the rhythm and pace of the music. That is, they can make nice sounds but not engaging music. I am delighted to be getting both right now. |
Ps: Though on the bright side basic isolation devices such as the pods have always shown an improvement to my CD players performance over the stock feet just resting on a shelf. Any improvement or fine tuning beyond that though seem to be of a highly individual nature. |
Dan, I have no experience with Sinks as I am too frugal. I also feel that the use of isolation devices (like many things in this hobby) will vary greatly with each individual's application as there are many variables involved. For example we all have different bases (floors) and the sound of your floor should even vary if you were to move your setup to different locations. We are also (most of us) using different components as well. For example I have two different amps that I have played around with (one tube and one solid state) and they both react differently to the same isoaltion devices as far as how they change the sound and overall balance. I even hear differences in different pieces of Maple as one piece that I use is relatively new and two others are at least 60 years old I would guess (they are folk art cutting boards). There are also different types of maple and different cuts from the tree. The Nuance shelves I find interesting in that they should be uniform, however I would guess that they would affect different components differently. I am not going to get a headache over this (today anyway), but this is just to say that I am leaning to starting from scratch with each individual component using the two basic principals as noted above in my first post, but without any pre conceived (this does that and that does this) and just playing it by ear with each piece. For example I tried setting up my DAC in the same manner as my player and I do not like the sound with all of the layers, so far it sounds better with just three cones elevating it from my cabinet shelf (the shelf itself is dove tailed Persimmon wood and is integral to my approx. 400-500 lb storage and hifi cabinet), which makes it quite a unique shelf. |
WHAT! You are mad Red, you must be carries away, removing my $30 stone base for a $$$$ rake? STOP, I can't take the thought! (thanks again Red for your thoughts)J.D. |
Red and Dekay, Do you think a Seismic Sink would also work in isolating the Neuance Shelf from MDF or does it make things worse? I have my CAL Delta on top of the Sink now. - Dan |
I don't know Jadem6. Just today the sound improved yet again from just leaving the Neuance in place. But I have learnt the hard way that light/rigid/steel etc as described above, is the right way to support the Neuance. By the way, if you go to their site it kind of looks like they use Mana racks to voice the Neuance (?). This might explain why the light/rigid/steel etc works for me. I have tried sandstone and masonry before (but not with the Neuance), and found there was some lack of harmonic fullness and lack of life. I did try the Neuance on a heavy structure with some characteristics like stone for a few days and found using hard, light metal cones under the Neuance was best and that the cones sounded best with the pointy end down - even better sitting in metal cups. I have found that if you support the Neuance successfully then cones and Vibrapods between component and Neuance shelf have too hyped a sound, and that either the component's own feet or the E-A-R feet are best - with the E-A-R feet giving a more refined, less noisy result, but which can overdamp the sound in some situations. The problem, as I say, is that what ever you try first with the Neuance, you have to just leave it in place for a week and not play - very hard to do, but if you don't you will go mad (hard to type with the sleeves of this white coat tied behind my back). It is possible Jadem6 that you may (horrors, I know) be best to try a welded steel rack sometime. |
Thank-you for the fantastic posts regarding your experementing. I look forward to my Neuance shelves arrival (4 weeks, they had great success at CES). Question, and I realize it will require a guess. My equipment all sits on 6" of sandstone wich sits on a solid masonry foundation. Would you guess I'll want cones or EAR footers? Thanks again, and I hope you don't mind but I wrote Neuance and told them of your posts and that you have had great results! J.D. |
You are very welcome Dan. It was as a result of other posters here that I was able to learn about and get to try Maple, Neuance etc particularly through the generosity of Brulee and Caterham1700. With the results I am getting now, it is me that ought to be grateful (and I am) for the opportunity to get suggestions and learnings from others at Audiogon. |
Red, I thank you for taking the time to share your listening experiments with us. I (among many others here I am sure) am very greatful. - Dan |
Dan. Hope the previous post helps. But I thought I would add that if you do try the Neuance and want to put something between the Neuance and your MDF shelves, then use metal cones that are not too heavy and experiment with metal cups underneath the pointy end, and use the cones point-down. I used plain old tiptoes to good effect, and found it preferable to heavier brass cones, which in turn were better than cones like the BDR or Walker - just not the right application for them. A cone that is hard and light seems to work best if you put the Neuance over MDF - another being the Golden Sound ceramic cones. |
It has taken a lot longer than I would like and I have taken some wrong paths for sure, but I am almost certain I have the measure of the E-A-R feet and the Neuance shelf. I did take some wrong paths because of the way the Neuance changes sound in its early days. After it has settled once, it does not seem to take very long at all next time and the changes are less - probably because you are usually compressing similar points on the shelf as the previous time it was used. Anyway, the Neuance is light, rigid and damped. Its ideal use is on a welded steel rack, firmly spiked to the floor and then spikes supporting the Neuance shelf. At times I have resorted to using small, thin, hard rubber pads between shelf and rack, and to sand-filling the rack, usually to try and tame an upper-midrange resonance (which occurs while the shelf is settling in, but which disappears later). But these are not a good idea when the Neuance has settled. You should absolutely definitely not sand-fill the stand or use pads when supporting the Neuance - the sound becomes analytical, lifeless and unmusical. As to the E-A-R feet, their main advantage is that they provide excellent damping, are neutral (in a way that the Vibrapods are not), and retain excellent detail. But there can be problems with them. In a setup where your rack or shelf already provides significant damping (ie. a MDF shelf) then adding the E-A-R's will kill the sound by over-damping it. Therefore, I doubt that putting a Neuance shelf on top of MDF will get the best out of it. I have tried it and used various cones (and Vibrapods) between Neuance and MDF to try and emulate a light steel rack, but the best result occurred when I used a small sub-table (a Mana Soundframe - expensive) between the MDF and Neuance. The result with cones was not bad, but it did not get the most out of the Neuance. I don't think the Neuance is designed to go on anything other than spikes and a light, rigid steel rack. With MDF shelves I find cones are the best way to go - something like the BDR Mark 4 does a good job at a reasonable price. The BDR Mark 3 appears to me to roll-off at both the top and bottom and add a persistant artificial warmth to the mid-range. I have done my best to try the Neuance extensively in three different systems and have found that in a more lively system/room the E-A-R feet are excellent between Neuance and component, but I did find in a less lively system/room that too many E-A-R feet closed the sound down, and it was better to just let some components sit on their stock hard rubber feet. I do not recommend either cones or Vibrapods between Neuance and component. When the Neuance is working well, not only are the cones and Vibrapods redundant, but their individual sound is very intrusive. You have got to hear percussive piano with the Neuance! The lack of noise and resonance compared to any other support I have tried is quite stunning. But don't expect the Neuance to blow you away. Using it just seems to subtract a lot of noise from the music. It does not add romantic qualities (as many vibration control devices do) that you develop brief infatuations for. In some ways I am nervous that I may be guilty of over-hyping the Neuance through my fullsome descriptions of it. I am sure that some might be utterly underwhelmed because it adds nothing to the music. Others may find it dead sounding because they cannot put a light steel rack underneath it. But for me, who has grown frustrated by the colorations that supports add to music, and that different supports usually just mean different colorations, the absence of sound of the Neuance (when used right) is a blessing. |
Dan: You are welcome. Please let everyone know how it works out (whatever extreme you go to). Many still do not beleive in the benefits of isolation components and the word from someone not on the "fringe" (not yet anyway) may carry a lot of weight. |
