Hi Erik I'm not going to get into the measurements or the science of measuring. That topic will spin forever in this hobby as it always has even though the measuring has been available for many years. However let me inject this into the conversation. Audio itself is vibration. Every part in your system functions by vibrating. The energy picked up by the microphones is vibration. The energy given off from our speakers is vibration. The energy we hear is vibration. Even the signal traveling inside of our brain is vibration. What I'm adding here is a fact. Dampening vibrations in this hobby is only a set tuning. It's one variable among billions. Whereas this hobby keeps returning to it's problem. Your conversation will never end because until this hobby understands that every recording is variable, and every part of the system is vibrating, there is one and only one conclusion to making accurate sound. That answer is, accurate sound is created as we tune the vibrations through the audio chain from beginning to end. It's all very simple, but the systems we need to deliver the music we love have not yet been made available. It's been designed, just not excepted in high end audio's mainstream. The best that has been done so far, is stripping each component down to the point where the mass is able to be tuned effectively by external tuning devices. You can see this done on the TuneLand forum. This has been going on for over 30 years now, but because this means a complete redesign of components, the industry has not been willing to change course, yet. It will happen just not until high end audio as we know it hits the wall of no return as it is. Until then you will have a million systems all sounding different from each other trying to judge recordings all with a different recorded code. Until the audio egos get to the place where they realize tuning an electronic audio component is no different than tuning an acoustical instrument the questions and debates over theory will remain. mgaroomtune |
Sorry, I need to laugh at you guys just a little bit. Please don’t take this as me picking on you, but re-read this thread and see if it makes sense. Here you guys are trying to put to end the very thing that music is and your making no sense at all. I think you guys sometimes need to grab someone off the street and have them read what you are saying. Let me ask you guys a simple question. If you record a space that is 40’ x 70’ and your playback system is producing maybe 12’ x 8’, why are you not reproducing the real size of the recorded energy? Don’t get all audiophile-ish before you think about this. Second question. Go into a room with a live cello. Now go back into that room with a dampened speaker and play the same thing the cello just did. Why is the live cello 3 times as dynamic? Again don’t get defensive before you do this. High end audio has been sitting still for 30 some years now and as you guys have admitted on other threads here, is dead compared to what it was. Why do you think that is? "Vibration/resonance IS a great enemy of the enjoyment of great music" hifiman, do you really believe this? really? That cello is 3 times more dynamic for two reasons. First it is vibrating, second it is In-Tune. Gentlemen, take that same cello and room and music, and de-tune the cello. The dynamics disappear. Take that same cello and put it back In-Tune and the dynamics come back. My friends Music Is Vibration. It’s either vibration In-Tune or Out-Of-Tune. One last question. If your system was In-Tune and you were playing back that 40’ x 70’ recording how big will your soundstage be? Sorry guys but all you are doing here is talking, while the listeners who have figured this out are listening to that 40’ x 70’ soundstage in their listening rooms at this very moment. Michael Green come join the walk, leave behind the talk
Now go back and look at this "Too much isolation and dampening can kill dynamics and warmth. Only do what is needed to achieve desired results.". This my friends is a sensible statement. |
Good evening Gentlemen, a busy day so I’m replying a little late. bdp, I hope I am not viewed as someone wishing to propagate audiophile theory. To the best of my knowledge no one has ever hired me to do so. My field of work is in applied science as pertaining to mainly practical application, natural and pure science. In other words for those reading, I don’t view variable tuning as a theory, but instead the oldest technology of music correctness as established by the earliest forms of music makers. This extends to mechanical/electrical as well as acoustical/mechanical. Swinging your vote bdp, is not on my agenda list of things to do. You will discover your own boundaries of theory with or without my belief system, as you should. It might however be useful to understand that audiophile theories at best still fit under the umbrella of variables, and what MGA does as a company is study and apply techniques and methods, and design products to be used for adjusting the audio signal. Where someone chooses to go with their tunes is completely up to them of course. Choice is a beautiful thing in a hobby such as music listening and my companies have always enjoyed finding not only how far reproduction can go, but also being a part of the choices the members of this hobby and industry choose and use, along with all their other choices. mg " Reality often runs contrary to our theories." another quote I like, and useful for audiophiles who get too wrapped up in talk instead of walk |
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Hi Dave Audiophiles have scratched the surface of their hobby, but as you are pointing out, the audio code and mechanical conduits hosting the signal are still very much in their infancy. The mere fact that we are having hobbyists not understanding that the audio signal actually is vibration, and are unable to connect vibratory to oscillatory is pretty telling. It shows us how hard it is for the ego to let go and move forward. In this hobby the ego is perhaps even more stuck than many others, probably because this hobby got off track when the people explaining the hobby were themselves not versed in the physics of the sport. It's an example of a very low bar to be an expert, and many times the loudest guy in the room being put in a position they are not qualified to hold. enjoying your outlook and posts michael |
Hi inna Thanks for the comments and questions! Ultimately the extreme high end audio systems will include the tunable room in the mix. In doing so the pressure between the speaker, room and ear all become one. With my systems that involve the entire chain, including the tunable room and circuit panel, the pressure is so balanced you barely need to touch the volume control and because of this the tuning becomes even more energized. Most of the speakers I design now only use a cap and a resister, some only a cap. This makes the tuning more organic and responsive. As the industry turns to tuning, drivers will become more tunable as well with adjustments coming from behind the magnets, done at the back of the cabinet and by the attachment screws holding the drivers on to the baffle boards. There are also other adjustments that will be built into the driver itself. This will take care of that "out of control" range as the physics of the speaker moves from one dynamic range to the next. In the end, audiophile vibration fears will not be an issue any more than what exist with acoustical instruments sitting on the stage together. It’s all a part of the evolution of this hobby. The real question for the future audiophile will be, how skilled will the listener become at playing his or hers system. The speakers, rooms and equipment of the future will also be available with both manual adjustments and remote controlled so you can make your mechanical adjustments from your laptops. High end audio missed the opportunity to make these moves when they should have happened in the mid 90’s but in time the science of tuning will get the audiophile high end community back on track. good to see you inna
michael |
Now that I've said this, I happen to be tuning in a set of my Chameleon 102's today. If you would like me to do something for you while I'm doing this we can make this a day of tuning and referencing. Can't get more fair or accommodating than this I would think. So who wants to be a walker today? michael |
Lohan said "Depending on the speaker they just want their drivers etc to work without sound from an enclosure entering the equation as it is an uncontrolled resonance." Do you really believe this? This was a common audiophile myth that actually has been tested quite a few years ago, quite a few times. If you build a cabinet that doesn’t involve vibration you will find that the speaker will make no sound at all or very little when set in the outdoors without reflective and mechanical boundaries. Speakers are indeed musical instruments. So are your rooms. None of this stuff is all that hard to digest, when your part of a team that actually do these types of test. Being an audiophile is a great and fun hobby, but when we try to replace physics with supposed theory we, I or anyone else, enter into an assumption based world. Even though we talk about subjects, there’s usually another world of reality available to us to gain pure science. I’m reading some of the comments here, and while interesting as an opinion, not very accurate in practical application. As suggested these types of threads usually end up going in circles with one person trying to convinced the rest, without truly putting their money where their mouth is. That’s just the way this hobby tends to do stuff. Not picking on you specifically Lohan. I also believe that some here may not know my background. I’m the guy who actually has been a part of the spending of the millions on researching these topics. I know this is a public forum and anyone can talk theory, but it’s not all that hard for those of us who actually do these things to spot others who have never truly explored the science of or been part of pure and natural science projects. Just as a raise of hands. Have any of you designed and built a concert facility from the ground up (including inhouse studios and playback rooms)? I’m not saying this to be cocky, but to suggest when the answers have already been given and built, sometimes it’s better to move forward instead of stepping into the revolving door of audiophile-assumption-ism lol. Again fun as it might be for some of you with maybe just a little too much time or an overwhelming need to recreate our already created world, the concepts and answers aren’t nearly as difficult as your making them. MG PS: keep in mind MGA is about the variables not one particular point within those variables, anyone can choose a place to stop and take a picture, but this doesn't move you along to explore the rest of the journey. Every time you start a new recording you begin another trip. The roads you took last trip don't apply. |
Hi inna I have posted your thoughts and the thread here http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t379-an-audiogon-thread#7520 It might be interesting if any members of TuneLand respond. have a good Saturday! |
Hi inna It would be great to ping pong on these pages, I mean that in the nicest way possible (audiophiles are great folks), but this is why I have TuneLand the websites and shows. It’s also why people can visit some of the facilities I have designed such as the music wing of SUNY Oneonta and have Dr. Robert Barstow take them on a tour as an example. Visiting forums for me is basically a way to say hi and invited listeners to where we tune 24/7. "vague zen audiophile preaching" quotes are why you wouldn’t see me much here. I have just enough time to invite and maybe give a quick sermon once and a while, the rest of my time is taken up by those wishing to be preached to. But to entertain your question, if you look back over the last several posts I have done here you will notice no one answered any of my questions. I’m enough of a philosopher to know when people only know how to build their own one way streets. If these were discussions I would discuss, but when the exchange can’t get past a few simple questions, I bore and have a tendency to move on. Look back at the question about sound stage size and let me know if even that one question is not worthy an answer. Is it possible sometimes you guys marginalize yourselves by judging too quick and perhaps shut the doors on yourselves instead of letting real questions and comments become the topics they deserve? Michael As a matter of interest and respect, I will post your question on TuneLand and see if any Tunees might be interested in responding and invite you to join in. |
Oh I don’t mind tests, they’re kinda fun. I’ve been in co-articles with some of the best test guys out there. Bob Hodas and me in the Widescreen Review article comes to mind. Also did that VH1 thing with Ringo’s drum maker, can’t think of that guys name, but he made titanium snare drums. A lot of times audiophiles ask for tests and proof but then they have no idea what to do with it. That’s why I like doing actual demos on a regular basis. But here’s what’s really interesting to me. If any of these guys knew what was truly involved in testing they wouldn’t be asking the questions they do. Come spend a day with me at a recording site sometime or a tunable room session and weep. Here’s one demo I gave to a recording engineering class in NY. I went into the Tunable studio ahead of time and de-tuned half the room. I didn’t touch any acoustical treatment just de-tuned the walls in half. We brought the students in and had them tune a drum in the tuned part of the room and asked them "what will happen to the sound of the drum moving it from the tuned to the un-tuned part of the room. Most said the drum would stay in tune. When they took the drum into the un-tuned half the dynamic range left as well the drum went out of tune. Next I adjusted the walls so they went tuned, then non-tuned, then back to tuned. I had the drummer strike the shell and walk from one side to the other, and the drum started intune, went out of tune, then went back intune when he got to the other end that was tuned again. We did the same test with a B&W, JBL and my Studio5 with the exact same results. We rolled those speakers from one side to the other and listened as they went in and out of tune. At the end of this we took the Studio5 to the center of the un-tuned area and tuned it to match the JBL at the far end and the B&W at the starting end. I do appreciate that people want proof over stuff but really without being a part of testing most of this stuff comes down to knowledge posturing at best. It may come across like I’m being tough on inna or any of the guys here but all I can say is go back and read the questions I have asked before jumping into the proof frying pan. I can’t speak for others but if you get in the room with me, whether it be playback listening room or live room in a studio, or even hall you better bring your A game or stay home. It’s maybe just a little nieve to challenge someone like me on some of this stuff unless your willing to get more than your feet wet. |
inna said "Michael,
Thank you for the invitation to join you for a tuning session. I would be happy to but I live too far from Las Vegas. I think, that's where you are based. And I do look forward to auditioning your new Chameleon speakers one day." Hi inna We're planning a move this next year to a showroom/design house so it's easier for folks to stop by. Having only the design house here in Vegas limits the involvement we get to have with listeners. It will be our pleasure having listeners from all over the world coming by so they may learn more about tuning. On TuneLand we also have individual threads for listener's to explore their systems with others who tune, which has been very useful for those wishing to get a little deeper into their personal system discussions. Although I don't see the benefit in many of these threads that end in one person trying to put another on the spot, using the proof word as a tool or defense, I do see the benefit of these threads being a stepping stone for those wanting to go deeper into their hobby. However in order to go further listeners have to get to the point where this hobby is more than words, theory or even myth creating. As great as this hobby is, it often is engaged in arguing disguised as a "discussion". No matter what the topic this will always end in at best an agree to disagree, when there's a completely different hobby in play at the same time of listeners actual doing things together instead of opposing each other. If this is me being "zen-ish" so be it. It is the world those of us who are actual in the business of music live in. |
bdp http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t273-recording-the-michael-green-way Thanks for the invite for me to share more. Also a thank you to the members here who have been visiting the website and forum. We love having you and look forward to listening together. michael green michael green audio |
That would be a blast Bobby! Lets do a room side by side at AXPONA. We could have the MGA/RoomTune room (with the Get Tuned! Girls of course) vs the Mr. Grump room. Sorry couldn’t resist :) Bobby said "You have provided a life’s long biography here and one has to wonder why you are not sitting atop the charts among professionals and the recording sciences?" mg Who’s wondering Bobby? LOL Shoot they can come over to the TuneLand forum and ask any time they want, we don’t bite! Bobby when you worked at RoomTune, you never came up and heard the Tunable Room at TuneVilla? Or went with me to any of our clients Tunable rooms? |
It’s an interesting thread. Hope that people get to read this. It’s somewhat unusual to have 3 different types of designers coming to one page, maybe more, I don’t know all the people here. Again something that continues to jump out at me and others as we read is, do the posters on this thread understand or agree on what the audio signal is? If you don’t know some of the basics how do you talk about the topic in a correct manner? Testing in audio has been going on everyday for decades. Maybe the typical audiophile doesn’t have the time to walk into these tests as they are taking place but every time a recording console is used a series of tests are performed. Same with tape alignment, microphone calibrations and a multitude of variables that are attended to. Likewise, a series of tests are done on the listening end, even though the hobbyist may not be as trained as a playback professional. I understand that the audiophile wishes to make this a simple plug and play event where there is a clear winner, but don’t you guys realize how huge the variables are? High end audio has been pointing their collective finger at the answer every month as a new issue is in print forever and has never had a system that has revealed the total truth of a recording, ever! No two recordings have ever been made with the same recorded code, ever! No two rooms the same or location, and more importantly no two ears and taste the same. It’s a hobby of variables that requires a method of tuning to dial in those variables no matter what we or you believe or how anyone claims to have the absolute. Here’s a truth. No matter how you or I or anyone make our systems and recordings sound in any one session, the very next recording you play has a different recorded code. It has a different audio code. You might like listening to your system playing different recordings making them all sound similar, or you might want each recording to be able to express itself as an individual piece of art playing the whole recorded space, but no matter how you wish to have it, your system is a tool. It’s not an absolute, and if it was, how would you standardize billions of recordings that have all been done as unique units of play? High end audio has never fixed these billions of recordings cause they are not broken. I appreciate what inna is saying and apologize if I’m sounding preachy or fail at attempts of philosophy, but listening does indeed come down to a philosophy. Listening to music on an audiophile level is not a standard, it’s a method and every one of us has our own standard of our own methods. Some of us can play our tools better than the next maybe, but none of us have the exact same goal or hearing as the next guy. My contribution to this topic if nothing else is for some to understand that each of us can have the music we choose to have and the method of understanding and then tuning those variables is what will get each of us to our individual goals. from my point of view that’s pretty basic Our systems will sound as good as the abilities we have to play our tools. Each one of you have made some valid points whether they work only for you or others, so maybe it's time we all choose a recording and start playing it on our systems and reporting the sound we are getting to compare with each other. It's not a matter of good, better or bad at that point, but different. |
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Hi Dave I can almost see you reading these posts thinking "why don’t these guys get it" LOL. I’m all in with you on this one. This hobby has had the hardest time breaking the ground that the rest of the world now considers the norm. They keep trying to put their finger on this one "thing" that will fix all. It’s like watching a horse race with all their blinders on. Earlier starsound’s Bobby talked about making his second room now. I asked about him never going with me to visit some of the Tunable Rooms while working for me. I have to say I was a little surprised at some of his comments. I’ve been doing tunable rooms for quite some time now and have had several people come in with their testing gear to do their thing. What they do with this info, I really don’t care, I’m a do it guy. I figure the rest of the folks can do what they do best, I love designing and listening to the variables of what has been created. this isn’t a downer on Bobby and his work, just an interesting observation, he was an employee of Mr. Tune, how could he not know of the Tunable Rooms being built? I mean there were reviewers flying in and out of TuneVilla. Anyway another story for another time I guess. Ex-employees lol. This quest for who has done what when and the lack of exploring all the great things that have already been done, can leave a person flat, and for me a little bored. Listeners aren’t going to get out of their shells until they take the time to look outside of their immediate surroundings. We find that the same guys who question if and why not, are the very guys who haven’t done for themselves or are stuck on themselves only. Opinions and attitudes are as variable as the audio signal itself. All a person has to do is ask! Now this was not planned but I found it funny. Just now while writing this I went on bing and typed in tunable recording studio. Right there on the first page was one of my studios and an old website with me doing interviews and such. I can give links till the cows come home on just even my involvement in variable audio, but if someone only wants to focus on "FIXED" one sound thinking, that’s exactly what they will end up with. And if they only test and measure that one sound, what have they done? At best they will have someone point to a beginning and end, leaving out the billions of other varying sounds that all exist on that one recording, let alone every recording with an entirely different set of stored codes. Stop and listen to what Dave is saying folks and then go in and look at your music collection. Do you see any 2 recordings that have the same recorded code? http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t52-the-tunable-room#7532 I left you guys with another link to view so you can see a little more of the study, testing and building of variable rooms, which just as tunable systems, is the final answer in definitive research and this hobby. I’m not saying "my tunable rooms", I’m saying tunable rooms period. look outside of yourselves and you will find more to this hobby than you ever knew existed to erik I’m pretty sure all the questions you have asked about testing have been done, your probably just not looking in the right places. In this hobby in particular very few things are done without a sales pitch of some sort attached to it, and not so much for the pure science. If you look outside of this hobby I’m pretty sure the questions you want answered are already done or can be done fairly easy. High end audio is difficult because audiophiles make it so, it’s not that hard. Might I suggest going to some of the innovative testing seminars available at most CES or tech shows. I live 2 miles from the convention centers here and have taken in a ton of useful programs. |
Hi inna There are two versions of the Chameleon now. The Chameleon FS and Chameleon FSLT. FS (FloorStander) FSLT (FloorStander Low Tone). My orders for Chameleons except for one are for the Chameleon FSLT. The FSLT has two cabinets per channel, the main speaker cabinet and the Low Tone. The Low Tone is like a subwoofer only it’s made like the main cabinet so that it is seamless sounding. The woofers are not "subwoofers" but woofers voiced to go as low as subwoofers. The Crossovers are external except for a small cap and resistor. There are a lot of configurations (much like a guitar), and the prices start at $4450.00 and work their way up to $21,000.00. Someone can get a pretty nice set of FSLT’s for around $9500.00, like the ones I’m listening to now. This set is a 1"(T) x 10"(M) x 15"(W) setup. One interesting feature that some of the serious guys are getting is the direct cable opt. No binding post. We’ll have standard models but everyone orders custom any more. I do have some pretty nice 8" models as well. |
That’s cool! We’ll try to get on the stick and open up some new showrooms for folks to stop by. As I said earlier I’ve had to take some detours back into my pro-life which took up much of my time. But I’m back as much as I can be. Stereotimes is way cool, congrats! We like the folks there! News Week isn’t bad either I guess. Here’s a quicky on one of my designs featuring variable tuning. It’s a tiny bit bigger (3 floors of studios and performance halls) than an audiophile listening room but I hope it will do in a pinch. Go to my website click on tuning and basic setups. From there click on the tunable room and you can visit the Music wing at SUNY. And if you skroll down you can visit a bunch of other youtube links that take you to my designs and even some of the recordings done in MGA Studios.
I apologize that I can’t post youtube here but you can go here and click on the first link and go to more and see what I’ve been up to while you guys have been having all the fun. take care mg |
Hi inna Yes, I haven't been using binding posts. The speaker wires go from the drivers to the amp without any extra connections. Gives a little more purity not having that mass interupting the power. https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPEJo4jYsgk |
Hi agear Yes, you just heard them. You heard one with basic treatment, one in one of my halls and one in one of my studios. At whatever level in whatever room the design is variable. I can go into any of my rooms and adjust the sound to any other of my rooms, your room or something completely different. That's the whole point of having tunable rooms. In many of my facilities I will have a live room, studio, master and playback room, like you can see on my site. I do this so recording engineers can come in and do referencing. Here's a quick youtube of what I do.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsR4GRhCSeo
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Always fun when it’s about music! Yep, I’m striking out with links today. I just thought I would link you guys to some nice Marimba solos fresh from our studios and halls. Oh well, you guys are more than welcome to visit my facebook page where I have posted the same recordings. I’d better get back to work, nice seeing everyone. https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1764861045 |
Oh my goodness yes, there are tons and tons of free resonant speakers. For starters, all of your panel speakers are by nature free resonant. Open baffle speakers are mostly free resonant. 99% of the rooms in the world are free resonant. Free resonance doesn’t mean "out of control", it means Able To Amplify. Tunable means adjustable amplification. Again as some of us have been pointing out, there’s physics going on here. An audio system is about amplifying. If you took the "fear of vibration" club here and thought about it in the terms they are stating things, all audio systems would be distortion lol. That doesn’t even begin to make common sense. It’s certainly not practical. Some may not like to hear it again, but many here have not been thinking about the basics of the audio system and what it is built to do. Audiophile myths can get a strong hold over folks who get stuck in that trying to figure it out thing bypassing the basic laws that we live in. Amplification both forced and natural follow the laws of settling (seeking to be in-tune). When you start to vary amplified energy, you will either do this by distorting the energy or amplifying the energy in-tune. Free resonance is all about letting the energy be in-tune while the amplifying is happening. That’s called letting the harmonic structures form. You can’t have harmonics without the fundamentals of amplitude. Some of you guys need to let go of your false sciences cause they’re simply not adding up no matter how hard your pushing. Your not going to force the laws of nature into your audiophile boxes, ain’t gonna happen. Sound my friends is not a theory and some of you are trying to make it so. Sound is an applied science. It has fundamentals and when amplification begins to take place it has fundamentals and the harmonic structures that support the grow patterns. Distortion is not the growth, the growth is amplification. When the harmonics are disturbed and not able to get back into its pattern of growth, that’s when distortion occurs. Come on guys, I know some of you guys are smarter than your displaying. I understand your passionate about trying to make and stick to an arguing posture, but lets get to the music and how music works and how our systems work. That’s one of the problems in this hobby, too many want-a-be theory makers, when music and amplification is not nearly that difficult. Tuning is nothing more than controlling the growth. It’s the pull to the push that keeps growth in line and accurate within the boundaries of the harmonic and fundamental strength. If you guys don’t get this, take a music class. if you don’t understand this after your music class stop talking and start doing. You guys have a whole world of musical timbre to enjoy and your not going to get there by spinning your way through this hobby. |
Hi agear Sounds like you got a good thing going. Maybe if Harold is down your way he can stop by and jam with you for a little. You should send him an email. I need to update this but here's a link.
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t249-a-look-at-tunable-systems#4490 Can't show you the high rollers, sorry. Unless they have a tour published. Got some pretty cool studios where they had me design a bunch of listening rooms along with the studios. One I'm thinking of even has an outdoor amphitheater. I know there are some tunable rooms down by you but haven't a clue how to get ahold of the folks. Do you have "Now Audio Video" around you? I know Dale Gelespie (spelling) did a lot of tunable rooms for them. I don't know how good they are cause we just sold him the parts. He was big into Naim. Also I think you have a magazine down there called Island Living. We did some houses with some musicians there. Most of the guys who spend that kind of money don't really socialize that much in the hobby. Anyway take a look at the site and let me know if you have questions. |
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"Totem" that speaks volumes! So many cool audio companies out there. I was just in Rm#1 listening to my Audolici A25-M (which I am in-love with) smiling from ear to ear thinking about how incredible it is for all of us to live in this age of the hobby of listening. I moved the Amp in from Rm#2 cause I'm working on some referencing for a client in Malaysia and every time, even now, it's exciting to bring a setup to life. It's never the same and for me that's part of what makes this special. There's always a treasure to be found and explore. |
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Thanks mapman Fortunately I have clients and friends who whenever I get on a forum they will give me the heads up. Most of the forums and members have a reputation that proceeds them. I use to not bother with the forums, but it's amazing how many folks contact me that never post. And your right, agendas on these things are like watching SNL. take care and thanks again, sometimes it's a hoot hanging out with audiophiles and far different from hanging out with music lovers |
Hi inna "I just hope that you voice your speakers with analog source" Not sure I understand that comment. All sources are of course analog. Did you mean what language do I use? I use analog and digital. I’m guessing that’s what you meant. Or if you were talking about source equipment, I use tape, vinyl, CD’s and files. I’m thinking about picking up a Studer again. You might not know but I’ve been designing speakers since the mid 70’s. At that time I did my designing with masters. Then when CD’s came along I found it easier to reference. Vinyl is not a practical way to design obviously but I use vinyl for long play referencing. As far as components we have a big audio closet both here and our La Crosse location. However most of my design components are stripped of their cabinets and down to the bare essence of the audio chain. After we get the basics we start introducing partial components and then at the end we introduce stock components. |
agear, your getting creepier with every post Your like the bastard son from Starsound hell who can’t stop digging yours’ and your dad’s grave on a public audiophile forum. LOL Holy Batman of all public forum posting.
here’s your shovel ask Bobby why he got fired from RoomTune jeeze put on some music and chill out, it can't be that bad lol |
No no no, don't stop this thread. I think it's good for folks to read the Starsound version of this small story in the audiophile gossip world. So that's it Bobby (I never heard you called Robert before so sorry) that's your story? Hobbyist should read this thread from start to finish. I think it shows the two sides of this hobby with some clarity. Bobby of Starsound and Geoff Kait have built their careers off of these stories. There are also some audiophiles who love being groupies of this type of thing as well. But for the rest of us, we enjoy living in the real world, being part of the music industry and enjoying every moment we have the chance to, enjoy the music. Good luck with your spins Bobby, but I believe in the long run they will only serve to cast doubt upon you and your credibility. |
bdp said "When looked at after their receipt, they obviously were not, nor could be, as they were merely pieces of fiberglass placed in a round enclosure (obviously to appear to be bass traps)." another interesting story, as well your other comments on this thread, but I wonder if it adds up Listeners can read the evolution of our products on our website from the early days with Sounds Like Newsletter sparking off the rush to produce the silly looking round tunes, through the custom loose batted material, fronts, frames bases and the fabrics and how those products turned into the development of the #1 seller of it's time. Fortunately by the time of our first show, 3 months after those early toys, we had the RTD design in place and the Fiberglass production rolls being made custom for me to approve. Humble beginnings for sure. Plus the fact that these were built at that time in amish country where there are virtually no audiophiles as far as the electricity can be thrown. Thank goodness a few good folks stepped forward to run the factory the best they could. The growth was fast, too fast for the original factories to handle. The head of the factory worked for a lumber yard before jumping in and some of the Amish smarts kicked in, in those days, to help the starter products get a foot hold. They did a fantastic job trying to keep up with this long haired jet setter. I enjoyed those early days! And they probably have stories to last them a lifetime. Some amazing things came out of those beginnings. |
Hi inna I wouldn't worry about this thread. In some ways it helps folks to inquire outside of the Geoffs' and Bobbys' of this hobby and they discover there is a big world outside of the smallness of audiophile myths and story telling. I don't know Geoff and I know Bobby only as someone who didn't workout for a young RoomTune company. I only know Bobby's involvement with AudioPoint for a brief time too, because my dealings with the original Audiopoint design happened a long time before startsound was ever in existence. How Bobby fits in was way after the original designs and reviews and even, manufacture location changes, so the stories Bobby shares comes from his mind to your ears. Like I said Bobby was a dealer in Allentown PA, he came and worked for RoomTune for I guess a year or so, and then who knows. It was a short chapter at best many years ago. Why these types of things turn into stories that look like mountains are usually an example of active imaginations. now on to important things, inna what are you listening to over this weekend? |
Rats agear, I was hoping you and Bobby were going to come up asking for proof again so I could be done with this, but I can’t wait, plus I need to get to some work. So lets finish with this unless you prefer to further make a butt out of you and Bobby and Starsound.
Bobby ask "Congrats on the Suny Oneonta project as it is a major accomplishment, however you call this studio your “own” or “my rooms” expressing ownership, similar to a structural engineer and/or architect’s copyrights whereas I see more of a vendor adding acoustic products to rooms versus a ground up build. Were you the one in charge and did you design and build this wing of the college from the ground up?" My computer goes back to 2007. So yes I have the PDF’s for the second SUNY SUCO music wing MGA design. The first studio was our design and build out as you can read in the reviews. The second was my design as well from the ground up. The project at first was to be done by a Chicago acoustical firm working with the chosen architect. However the music department head (who I worked with on the first studio) requested I be the designer and they made the switch to me before the plans got rolling. So yes I had the fun of doing the design from ground up with a pretty cool group of architects and state of the art structural design teams. Fortunately there were some projects being done here in Vegas with some new concepts for walls and I got to jump in with those guys, so I was able to come up with some formulas that were never done for recording studios before. This of course is on TuneLand and I believe a few commercial magazines. As I said earlier you and your friend can attempt to paint pictures but Bobby this will end in you looking like a fool. I have a fairly long list of pro clients that have used me since I saw you at RoomTune in the 90’s. If you can’t control yourselves and get on with your business I don’t mind talking about my work with the schools of music, instrument companies, commercial companies such as Herman Miller and many more. but maybe you guys should just chill like some have said. No reason for you guys to continue your grumpiness. Why don’t you just leave enough alone. This will not turn out good for you. |
