Is There An "Absolute" Best Cartridge?

Dear friends: IMHO in every area/product/service of whatever surround our life almost always exist the " best ". As a fact this " the best " is what impulse the same " the best " company and its competitors to offer/design/build a new service/item/product that can even and beats " the best ".

I think that we don't " grow up and improve " only by " magic " but on purpose and with precise targets to be/attain " the best ".

Of course that several " companies " even us does not care or just can't or don't have the know-how or financial resource or whatever to aspire to the " best " top step.

Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Ford, Ferrari, BMW, MB, etc, each one in his market " niche " " fight " to be the best to increment its sales or by be recognise on a top " status " level.

Lakers, Celtics, Yankees, Dodgers, Dolphyns, Steelers, etc, etc, works/fight to be " the best ".

M. Streep, J. Bridges, T. Cruise, K. Bacon, R. Williams, S.J. Parker, W. Smith, M. Ryan, N. Watts, R. Redford, Scorssece, DD. Lewis, H. Ford, J. Foster, etc, etc every one in his/her respective movie genre fight/works/improve to be " the best ".

The best is IMHO a synonymous of an attitude in constant action to achieve hard/especial targets to be " the best ", it is a challenged/competitive attitude that with out that we can/could live in the mediocrity where many companies and people belongs.

Nothing of these facts are un-familiar on the audio industry where things take action in the same way.
If you ask to an audio item designer/builder if he design to attain a product that can be know it like " the best " in its audio area, some of them ( designers ) will answer you that they want to be there: " the best ", that their hard work design, research, execution, etc are win that prize.
Some of them meet that target and several fail on that " quest ": maybe next time!

Deny that exist " the best " on audio is like deny our each one existence and IMHO makes non-sense.

That is really unusual to find " the best " does not means " the best " does not exist.

How the audio industry and in specific the high end audio niche grow up and improve with out existence of several " the best " through all these years? just by " magic " ?, certainly not: the high end industry has/own a very strong deep attitude on " the best " subject that gives the impulse to not only grow up but to improve over the time, it is what move/action the whole high end audio industry where we all ( one way or the other ) belongs, the audio industry area is not an island and not aisle from the " gravity laws " that command the Universe!!, no we are not so especial I can tell you.

Now, how I see this controversial " the best " subject:

all the " ones " ( like us. ) that belongs and live inside the high end audio " learn ", grow up and " think " according the high end audio establishment where exist several no write specific rules and myths that function like the four wall of the high end audio " room " and like attitude/behavior that norm the " life " in that room, these " rules " are the ones that permit to move inside the " room " at specific speed in a specific direction: are the " way of life "! .

part of these rules and myths in that high end audio establishment can/could be:
- tubes are the right " road ".
- SS technology is analytical, cool an un-involving.
- SE tube technology is the " heaven ".
- SUT are better for LOMC cartridge.
- analog source: only LOMC ones.
- TT's. the right road are BD designs.
- and if the Platter TT weights a " ton " the better.
- digital source is " untouchable ", does not exist.
- MM/MI cartridges: what is that?, has no quality status.
- amplifier output impedance: can I eat it?
- there is no " best ", does not exist.
- everything is system dependent.
- our earth planet is " flat/plane ".
- tonearm/cartridge resonance must be 10hz.
- Koetsu myth
- Gigant-killer: Denon 103
- etc, etc.

Who “ invent “ all those rules and false myths? Who cares!, we are here to write the history, our best time history.

we almost can't express something against the establishment because almost every one can/could stop you by the " rules " with out real additional arguments that can support those " rules/myths ".

what happen with our each one self audio/music education that we cultivate with care by 20-30+ years? what happen with our " restlessness " in different audio topics/areas where we want not only hear music through each one audio system but to enjoy it at " the best " by any standard.

All of us has very specific personal audio/music characteristics that shows as " good things ( virtues ) and bad things ( defect ) ", these virtues/defects are our each one audio luggage that grows through each one audio/music life experiences ( for the good or bad. ) and that conforms our each one learning curve audio/music ladder.

This audio/music each one knowledge/training is ( mainly ) what distinguish one each to other. Some are experts on tubes, other on TT's, others on quality performance audio system detection, others in cartridges, technical subjects, in all?, in music, etc, etc.

All of us own audio systems that ( in many ways and in different levels ) are more similar than different, why? we own it to enjoy music through system performance.
The link that gives sense to the high end audio and that join all of us is: MUSIC and the pleasure to hear it.

There are some characteristics that help for we can say: this is " the best ", one of those characteristics is an audio system almost free of quality performance limitations: this fact is a must ( many of you own this kind of audio home system. ) because you can't find " the best " if the system limitations stop/preclude that that " the best " shows you why is " the best ".

So only a few people can have the opportunity to hear " the best "?, IMHO NO every one has that opportunity what only a few people can is to find out " the best ": thank's to its knowledge, no-limitation audio system, non-establishment attitude , passion for music, desire to share it with us and no compromise but the MUSIC and how achieve “ the best “ to enjoy it.

The best always has top demands: demands from your music knowledge, demands from the audio system, demands that you don’t give up, demands that first “ understand “ it, demands to you can discern if is “ the best “, demands on the right and precise set up, etc, etc, demands " the best " of you!

“””””””””” A Ferrari Testa Rossa owner is speaking with a Honda Civic owner and is telling him that his Ferrari can run to 200 mph. Then both take a road with speed limit at 75mph. The Ferrari owner never can show the Civic owner those 200mph. When the Civic owner come back home he told his wife: “ hey our Honda Civic is like a Ferrari because today the Ferrari can’t pass my Civic on road and I’m running at 75mph!!! “””””””””””

What happen if you go and test that Ferrari at Maranello own speedway where the Ferrari can show you why is “ the best “ and where the Honda Civic shows all its limitations.

Got that?

This is exactly what happen when we have “ the best “ and we even know it because our system limitations and when we compare that true “ the best “ against what we own we think that “ the best “ only even what we have or even we think that what we have is better yet! This happens every single day.

So “ the best “/Ferrari demands/a must the Maranello speedway/audio system and who can drive it ( fine tunning at its needs. Not what I like but what it needs. ) ).

The Technics EPC-P100C MK4 is not the best I heard but IMHO “ the best cartridge ever “. Many of you that can drive the “ Ferrari at Maranello needs/status “ knows almost immediately when you are in “ front “ of not a better or excellent product but in front of “ the best “, well this cartridge belongs to that top status. Lewm don't worry for the next " the best " cartridge that is part of the audio fun!

Of course that if you don’t want or care about even if you can “ drive it “ you never find out!

Am I against the establishment or against whom support that establishment?, NO I’m with the high end audio establishment but thinking in a different way to find out the real and true “ the best “ and not what the “ establishment “??? Want to makes me think.

Gentleman I’m not anymore prisoner of that high end audio establishment.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Dear Downunder/Halcro: I don't think that you are understanding ( because my bad explanation ) what and why I choose those specific 8-9 different music tracks and I can't explain with detail about because we need to hear it to be aware what I looking for with each track.

Through these tracks I check the cartridge set up mainly on VTA/SRA and Azymuth, I check low mid-bass/bass/hf, specific different sounds/instrument not only the specific timbre but its sound stage specific position where the sounds comes ( sometimes the voice is in focus but other track sounds are in different " normal " position because azymuth not in target. ), I check even the breath on singers with its position/timbre/intensity, even how some LP clicks performs, etc, etc.

I don't heard/hear the recording track as a whole music recording but with those especial tracks I'm only try to detect what I know is there and how is there when I'm playing that recording.

For you can do this you need first to choose the different recording tracks where you think could make the job, then know in deep every single second playing time on those tracks, then choose what are you looking for in each part of the track ( not the whole track ), then that your process can be repetitive and always with success on any system or audio item.

Halcro maybe this is easy for you ( like you say ) but I take it some years to be here.

I can tell you that ( till today ) I almost ( I can't remember when. ) never fail about in my system and in several other systems/audio items.

Do you think that was at random that only in ten seconds I can ( past of can. ) tell my friend that there was a trouble with his system tweeter ( this was the first time I heard that system. ) and tell him why where he and the other friend that was with us were unaware about?.
But not only my friends were unaware on that you or any one else be unaware in exactly the same way my friends were.

Do you know why?, simple you don't know what to look for in that recording track where I'm training to do it.

Btw, after those tests any other recording will be on shape for the bad or good.

I remember when I was in USA hearing a top audio system and I was hearing the PB ( Cafe Blue ) track:

in that moment the system owner was in other adjacent room and then suddenly comes to me and told me " now I see why you choose this PB track to test " that he I think never heard it before. Btw, I think I help him with my system advise to improve it.

Any one can do it if has the training to do it. Part of this training is how deep is your audio experience, live music events experiences ( how often? ), how many audio system you alredy heard? how many different audio items do you know/heard? how good is your audio system? how precise/right/well choose those test recording tracks and how good are you? , oh! I forgot: no bias mind!

Unfortunatelly you are not near of me to make a test live in your system where you can understand what I'm talking about that is totally different of what you are talking about. Is complex as a process and complex to explain.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Hi: Maybe is more easy that you read that Technics cartridge link here:
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TECHNICS EPC-P100C-MK4

Dear friends: This is really a review, I’m not so good writing an audio item review but this time IMHO I think that this Technics MM phono cartridge deserve some one that can “ speaks “ on it and well I’m here to do it and “ looking “ for your experiences and feedback on the Technics cartridge subject, I know there are owners of the EPC-100C I really appreciate your contribution as the contribution of all of you that help to enrich the whole thread title subject.

The name Technics is a very well respected and old name in audio, a manufacturer that belongs to Panasonic group and then to the electronic gigantic Matushita I think that in the analog area Technics is very well know for its turntables where I think the most popular is the 1200 model(s) but in the high end the Technics name had/have a Reference products status like TT’s that are a challenge to even today TT designs through its DD designs SP10-MK2 and MK3 designs. Other analog area where Technics was/is a “ reference “ is on tonearm design through the EPA-100, EPA 500 and the EPA100 MK2.

Less know it for its cartridge designs otherwise Technics build/design either MM and LOMC cartridges and in both cartridge technologies made it at top level.
The Technics philosophy was/is be second to none and the EPC-P100 MK4 is a good example of this Technics philosophy.

Its latest and top of the line LOMC model was the EPC-305MC MK2 and its latest top MM cartridge was the EPC-205C MK4.

Why make a review on an audio item that is out of production and hard to find?, if you read the Audiogon MM/MI thread you can find that almost all the cartridges that many people are enjoying today are “ out of production “ ones and where we can buy it only second hand, sometimes in NOS condition and many times really second hand meaning and the important/critical subject about is that several of these out of production cartridges are and have very high quality performance against any today cartridge standards in either design: MM/MI or LOMC, we have to think that all of us can/could take advantage that today we have better quality audio systems than 30 years ago that help for these cartridges shows its real today very nice performance. This Technics has not only that kind of quality performance level but additional performance characteristics that makes me be here in the review.

For many years I was looking for this Technics cartridge with out luck, I find the EPC-100C MK4 two times but this one is an integrated headshell model and I don’t want it because it does not permit to test/match the cartridge with the right headshell/tonearm in my system, it does not permit too to mount but only in a removable headshell design, and IMHO the cartridge internal wire connections were good in its time but not today .

Finally more than six months ago and thank’s to an Agon friend I find a source with a NOS of this P-mount EPC-P100C MK4.

The cartridge appear in the audio market in November of 1982 .

The cartridge was and is still today a cartridge reference for a few pro-audio reviewers, recording producers and even cartridge manufacturers/designers like Dr. Van denHul.

As you read this cartridge sample is the MK4 latest EPC-P100C version, many years ago I had the opportunity ( but not the money to buy it. ) to hear the original one.

This P-mount cartridge comes in a small box with the external Technics ad nomenclature writes in the box. Inside we find a plastic “ box “ where the EPC-P100C MK4 comes mounted and fixed through a screw in an item that looks like a especial plastic headshell that protect against any bad handling box. We find here the hardware that we need to mount it like: an “ open frame “ P-mount universal adaptor, screws, headshell wires ( these has especial connectors due that the cartridge pins connectors are very think against the pins connectors in a normal ½” cartridge. ), two screwdrivers: one to fix the cartridge to the mount adaptor with the dedicated screw and one ( small one. ) to fix the cartridge stylus ( through a thin philips type screw. ) to the cartridge body, a warranty card . a operation manual and frequency response/crosstalk charts/diagram of my specific cartridge sample.

The cartridge it self is beautiful made in champagne color with rear plate in black. The Technics people was really especial,, in the left cartridge body side we can read: type of cantilever, cartridge recommended VTF and Matushita Electronics/Made in Japan.

Build/design cartridge characteristics and specifications:

It is a moving magnet one-point suspension with “ all HPF core, precision ground finish “, the cantilever is pure boron tapered pipe with a TTDD ( Technics Temperature Defense Damper ), the magnet is a Disc-shaped samarium-cobalt with (BH) max=30 MG . Oe, the stylus tip is a especial linear elliptical stylus, with an effective moving mass of 0.055 mg. ( please don't ask what means these Technics propietary " cartridge design/build " characteristics: I don't have idea yet. )

Frequency response: 5 Hz- 120,000 Hz
20 Hz- 20,000 Hz +,- 0.3 db ( **** )
15 Hz- 80,000 Hz +,- 3 db

Output voltage: 1.2 mV ( * )
Channel separation: more than 25 db.
Channel balance: within 0.5 db
Compliance: 12cu ( 100 Hz, dynamic. )
DC resistance: 30 Ohms ( ** )
Inductance: 33 mH
Recommended load
Resistance: 10 kohms to 1 Mohms!
Recommended load
Capacitance: less than 500 pf. ( *** )
VTF: 1.25 +,-0.25 g.

( * ): both channels measure the same output voltage with out any measurable difference!!!!!
( ** ) both channels in my sample measure the same: 37.3 Ohms with out any measurable difference!!!!!!!
( *** ) the Technics chart measures states that they use 100 pf. I’m using 150pf.
( **** ) each one Technics chart channel frequency response shows “ identical “ with no “ visual “ deviation for both channels!!!!!!!

The stylus replacement model is: EPS-P100ED4.

As we read it this Technics cartridge was made with an envy great and unique precision, I name this: perfect design/execution build quality “ cero tolerance “ people oriented!!!! Proudly to be part of this great audio item.

Cartridge set up:

Normally the MM/MI cartridges are user friendly on tonearm and set up, well this one is not an easy set up one especially on VTA/SRA. I mounted in my Audio Technica AT-1503 MK3 with an original magnesium Nagaoka headshell and did not like it so I change it to an aluminum heavier headshell and in this one is how I'm listening it, latter on VTA/SRA set up.

Technics leaves at random almost nothing, the P-mount adaptor that comes with the cartridge is an open frame design ( unique and different from any adaptor I know or have. ) and this means that there are no adaptor pin connectors where the cartridge pins are connected and where the cartridge signal has to pass on ( in addition to the cartridge " normal " pin connectors. ) and where that signal suffer an important degradation.
This open frame design comes with the usual 1/2" mount headshell holes threaded and the usual P-mount design adaptor/cartridge hole that fix through a screw the cartridge to the mount adaptor.

Instead of the normal adaptor for P-mount cartridges that comes with pin connectors Technics build and design its own headshell wires, at one end these headshell wires ( four color coded. ) are like any other headshell cartridge wires/connectors/clips but at the cartridge end there is a small plastic ( clear ) box where the four wires are placed in exactly the right position to connect directly to the cartridge pin connectors that are a lot tinner ( tiny ) that a normal/non P-mount cartridge pin connectors.

With this headshell wires especial aditament Technics solve two critical subjects in favor to maintain the integrity of the cartridge signal: first eliminate the P-mount adaptor pin connectros ( one less stage where the signal must pass on. ) making a direct connection with the cartridge and second they choose a better quality headshell wires than stock ones ( obviously that today we have even better headshell wires, so I don't use the Technics ones but my normal silver Audio Note . ).

The VTF was and is working at 1.25grs and the load impedance is set to 100kohms along a total capacitance of 150pf. I don't use anti-skating and the cartridge comes with removable stylus guard.

The cantilever/stylus assemble in a MM/MI cartridge is the smaller one that I know other than my Nagatron 350 and is dead center on the cartridge body like no any other cartridge I know. This is my first cartridge ( I can't be sure but maybe along my AKG P100-LE ) where the Azymuth has to set up with out any center deviation.

Due to its extraordinary performance characteristics the VTA/SRA sweet spot is extremely wide and IMHO a challenge for any one.: this cartridge refuse to sound “ bad “ at any usual/unusual VTA/SRA set up!!!!! .

After 12 hours the cartridge almost settle down and I begin to find out its “ average “ best sweet spot VTA/SRA position that was/is almost even/level in parallel to the record. To made/make this set up I now appreciate not only my audio music experience and audio system high resolution but that fortunately I have and use ( for the last ten years. ) the same 10 tracks on different recordings as my cartridge tests to cartridge set up, I think that maybe with out these recording tests could never achieve the “ best “ quality performance of this especial and unique cartridge , you can read something about these test tracks here:

file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Raúl/Mis%20documentos/AudiogoN%20Forums%20%20Establishing%20a%20common%20analog%20listening%20bias.htm

As some of you can read one of my test recordings is the Janis Ian tracks 1 and 2 in side B, well when things goes difficult I use too the Gold Edition CD of this Janis Ian recording to check in CD ( 7 ) a battery part ( middle of the track (drum.). ) that belongs to mid-range and in the ( 8 track. ) for bass near the end of this track. Well, this Janis Ian digital recording is really good and at least in the bass better than the LP where in the mid-range ( especially the test part I use. ) is similar in both. For the very first time I heard trough the Technics cartridge the bass on the LP with the pitch/tightness/no-overhang/no-coloration/no-lush/no-bloat-bold but the right bass!!

As better the audio system as better the cartridge quality performance, IMHO this cartridge is a challenge to almost any good audio system ( cartridge limitations?, only the self audio system limitations. ), its specs are more electronic of an audio item “ oriented “ than usual cartridge specs!!

Listening/performance:

What makes the quality performance differences against any other ( MM/MI/LOMC ) cartridge I heard?, well what distinguish a good or very good audio item to an excellent one: frequency extremes performance! along music dynamic handling, only this? Well not exactly but mainly.

Dear friends, this is the first cartridge in the last ???…ever that let me hear “ sounds “ in recordings that I know well in deep that I never was aware exist in those recordings and let me not " heard/hear " ( well not heard. ) “ things “ that are mere colorations in other cartridges, it is not that with the Technics sounds different or better NO are “ new “ sounds!! that no other cartridge in any other system I heard produce or at least its performance does not permit goes out with the SPL need it to my ears/brain detect in precise way like in the Technics cartridge performance.

One example of that you can find it in the Patricia Barber ( Cafe Blue ) recording through the track 2 ( Nardis. ) side B where in the first 2-3 minutes we can hear the Patricia voice, well with almost any other cartridge I can " count " four times that the microphone takes the Patricia " breath " and with the Technics I can detect six times that breath/respiration in Patricia performance. You can check and see what you hear about.

This cartridge is very good tracker like almost all MM/MI cartridge but this in especial and I think due to its very high quality performance the " normal " inner groove distortion does not exist in anyway. I test this playing the recordings from inner track to outer track looking for that " inner distortion " or quality differences and my ears can't detect any where in other cartridges I can hear a difference in the highs with more brightness that IMHO only tell me more distortion and not better quality performance.

Frequency extremes performance: IMHO the high and bass frequency range quality performance is what has the biggest influence in the whole recording/track performance. As better these frequency ranges as better the recording quality performance in any single recording frequency range: mid range/low treble/mid-bass/soundstage/layering/detail/etc., etc. and as I say along how well the cartridge/system handle the music dynamics.

IMHO this cartridge sets new frequency extreme ranges quality performance and dynamics. The bass in cartridges like the Azden YM-P50VL or the Allaerts Formula One ( that are extraordinary in this regard. ) with that bloom/lush even a little/tiny " rounded " impact/power in the bass is only that a very good but " colored " bass performance.

How is in the EPC-P100C MK4?, disappear that " rounded "/bloom type bass response and instead of that we have not more bass quantity but better bass quality ( even deeper. ) with precise control on the bass musical notes and with less a lot less coloration/distortions: no overhang, no bloom, no round response ( only when is in the recording. ), no false response ( because we can't hear it in that way in live events. ) with false " excess " of bass ( a halo around the bass. ). The speed in transient response in the bass ( well over the frequency range. ) and fast/precise time decay on musical notes made/makes that the " normal " colorations/distortions almost disappear leaving nothing but the music.

Recordings like D. Bowie Cat People ( 45rpm. ) or Firebird ( Mercury Living Presence. ) are two examples of the “ true “ low bass in those recordings against the bass performance with other cartridges. In the Bowie track not only shows the bass range improvement but now the Bowie voice is clear/pristine and more “ Bowie voice “ with lower “ size “ and less darkness and bold/bloat.
In the Firebird score ( side B. ) it is amazing to enjoy/hear the whole sound that produce that bass big drum, I mean as whole sound the different “ sounds “ inside/out with only one player hit on the drum, we can detect so vivid “ what is happening “ inside on that big bass drum and OH! that lovely first double-bass pizzicato at the very begin on this side B track that you can touch/cut. In the other side now I can hear very clear the harp on this score. Everything is “ cleaned “ with this bass level performance!

The Power and the Majesty ( Mobile Fidelity. ):

this is perhaps the best real/live recording/performance that I heard. Well with this cartridge we can “ live “/hear the most “ vivid “ experience that I never heard before in my place or any other place.

If we take the side A this is a Storm recording. Recorded just from the begin when we can hear not only the first and “ slow “ fall water drops but the thunderstorm far away from the recording place ( a house. ), suddenly the storm begin with fierce precede of a near big thunder that if you are unaware of it then you just jump from your seat, this big thunderstorm is in your face with all real/live power as you can hear in a live storm, it is something incredible the way this cartridge produce the right thunder sound from the start transients to the end of thunder sound: a learning experience that maybe you can understand in a precise way when you have the opportunity to hear it.

After this big thunder the rain falls abruptly and now you can hear how the rain drops hits the window and how the water falls from the roof-house and how hits the floor out side the house. This rain fall has a very wide frequency range of sounds where IMHO only first rate systems can discern on that wide range of those sounds.

Well, it happens that just behind my speakers the room has a big glass-window and when you are hearing this storm recording I can say to you that is almost impossible to say if the rain drops hitting the window in the recording are a recording or a real-live rain drops hitting my window: you must hear to believe it!!!!, what a experience!

In the first track side B we can hear the sound of an old locomotive in motion and we heard it starting when the locomotive is far away from us and distinguish only the sound of its whistle and some " sounds " of the wood/camp environment but when this railroad is at a few meters from us the whistle and metal sound of the motion on he rails are impressive ( for say the least ), you can think the whole train be pass over you: your instinct makes that you made a " step back "!!!!, it is the train that is passing from left to right in your " room "!, better yet you are transported where things are happening!.

Mozart/ChopinHandel ( Kabi Laretei ( player ) ATR Mastercut recording ) and Shumann ( John Lill ( Piano player ). Greenpro label. ):

This sweden pianist/player is very good as is the recording. What I want to high light here is that along the Shuman ( different recording ) recording how well we can identify ( similar piano instruments: Steninway’s. ) the microphones used: B&K ‘s on the ATR and Neumann’s on the Shuman one, I prefer the vivid/life like tone on the B&K against the little " softness " in the Neumann's. Both performances are great and both recordings remember me that ( for my taste ) the piano is the “ Instrument “, a glorious one.

The Power and the Glory ( Direct to Disc M&K recording ):

For the people that does not know about this recording here are some high lights: three Organs at the First Congregational Church of Los Angeles being played by the Master Lloyd Holzgraf. The two big Organs were separate by 198 feet played antiphonally and blended: 11,848 pipes/32 foot fundamental pipes and high pressure trumpets!!!!

who owns the Vol.1 of this great recordings knows that is not easy to achieve high quality performance on it especially a " clean " performance, this means with very low distortion. Here the Technics shows its capacity to track in exemplary way, mantaining always contact and " minute " contact always with the grooves where other cartridges fail to do it at the Technics precise level, the Technics almost no distortion performance comes as a result of its great tracking capacity.

Well, the second track on side A ( Vivaldi: Largo in D minor. ) ( first track and just splendid: Bach, Toccata and Fuga in D minor. ) has so deep/low bass organ notes that we can't hear it but only feel it. I try these track with different cartridges and in all of them the organ vibrations that you feel over your body ( over all system room. ) are the same but the ones coming from the Technics: can you believe this?, I was in doubt for what I was feeling on these Technics vibrations so I repeat 3-4 times the track to be absolutely sure of what I'm " hearing ": is not only that you feel the vibrations on the body but that you can discern very well on those vibrations and its intensity and quality because in the Technics you " feel " less distortion.

Eva Cassidy ( Songbird. ):

Tracks 1 and 3 in side A shows the beauty of Eva Cassidy voice, through the Technics you can attest the real ( or near real .) the formidable and marvelous Eva voice: so distinctive, so demanding, so fullness, so melodic, so precise and involving, so emotional that I can't understand and miss her young lost.

Shehrezade ( Reiner and the Chicago.):

My only comment: that concertino finale, always sounds excellent but through the Technics it is an “ endless love “ experience.

I use several other recordings knowing and enjoying this cartridge.

At the other frequency extreme the over-brigthness performance almost disappear ( even at high SPL like 94db's+. ), we have only the natural agresiveness of the music with out any edginess or colorations that could stress or fatigue our ears through hours of playing time. In this frequency range the differences are big too and the transparency/detail/natural auidiophile music words takes a new dimension that only if you hear it can understand it ( I have no words in English to explain in precise way, maybe because is a totally new experience. ). Many times ( like in the PB Nardis track. ) the sound of cymbals ( especially when the player hits at the outer cymbal ring. ) we heard are something like a soft white noise with out definition with this Technics cartridge there is no “ white noise sound “ but the metallic distinctive cymbal sound with the precise hearing when the player hits the cymbals, you can hear very clear the fundamental, harmonics, rhythm and decay of the sound.
This cartridge has great capacity for discerns/differentiate/distinguish every nuances in every recording like no other analog source ( save for a master tape. ) I heard/know. Other important characteristic is that with this cartridge does not exist the " overhang " that is so common with other cartridges in every frequency range, with the Technics the music note end in precise way like we heard it in a good live event.
All these cartridge unique characteristics are what makes the difference.

With this frequency extreme great quality performance the low treble/mid-range/soundstage/inner-detail/etc, takes new meaning where the overall performance put us not near on the recording but " on the recording ". After the first few cartridge playing/hearing hours and after the big “ surprise “ on its quality performance level and after understand that almost what we already heard through almost any cartridge in almost any audio system was almost “ wrong “ and after accept this new quality level performance: The transparency, clarity, accuracy, precision, natural music agresiveness ( with no false mid-range lush. ), feeling and emotions that involve you and that flow all over your skin as you are hearing the recording then your next thought is that you want/need that that pleasure and music enjoy never end.

Nothing disturb you, nothing between you and the music, nothing between the music pleasure and your brain/sense, nothing to worry about but the big joy and happyness that only the music can, what you are hearing always " move " you even if it is not the kind of music you like.
Maybe many of you can say that what I posted here through hearing those ( an a lot more ) different recordings is what you are hearing at your place, certainly you did/do but IMHO not at this quality top level: this analog source is something especial.

Dear friends: IMHO different cartridges " paint " the music in different Colors.

The EPC-P100CMK4 has the capacity to Color the music with the right tone, with the right lights and shadows and with the right color intensity that the recording is asking for through the whole recording/music composition.

The recording is a paint in white and black and the cartridge ( well the whole audio system. ) the painter: from this " point of view " the Technics full-fill its true Color on each single " space " in that paint where other cartridges/painters not only are less refined painters but leave " spaces " with no Color.

A unique an enjoyable musical experience. IMHO nothing comes close to it. Yes I'm a proud owner of this cartridge like several other owners but with a little of patience you can find a cartridge sample over the Net ( especially in Japan , Hong Kong or Europe. ).

Can any one ask for more?, maybe but for me is good enough today and really I can't imagine how to improve this kind of performance where I can't detect any single drawback. Of course that I'm always in the audio Nirvana quest a who knows what the future has to all of us.

Are there serious contenders to the Technics cartridge?, not really: I like a lot Allaerts Formula One, Goldbug Ms. Brier, Audio Technica ATML 180-OCC, Azden YM-P50LV, Ortofon A-90, Lyra Olympos, Sonus Dimension 5, Van denHul Colibri, Dynavector XV-1s , Grado Amber The Tribute, Coralstone, Signet TK10 ML-Mk3 or Grado RS II ( I don't heard/hear yet the XV-1t. ) but IMHO no one of them ( unfortunately ) share the Technics cartridge performance new level characteristics., maybe the AKG P100-LE could share “ something “ with the Technics but this I can corroborate when I receive it from Van denHul where is now for a “ refresh “ cartridge service.

My high and only hope is that in a very near future the cartridge designers/manufacturers can come with new cartridge designs ( either LOMC or MM/MI. ) that can even or better yet that can beats this today unique, great, formidable and marvelous EPC-P100C MK4!!

Yes, this cartridge is a unique and precision musical instrument : an authentic piece of “ art “.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
Rauliruegas (System | Answers)

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Dear Vinyladdict: +++++ " that gets me shaking my head in wonder. " +++++

this is all about. Before we can have precise " conclusions " we need to shake a little our brains.

Btw, ++++ " I make damn sure I've got more than one person giving me an opinion on the item. " +++++

I remember that I recomended the Azden for you and told you that read the MM/MI thread where not me but others can give an opinion about. Please don't reat all of us that are participating in the MM/MI thread ( and many others that choose not participate but that are testing MM(MI's. )like " childs " that does not have each one criterion, all of us are adult people with knowledge in audio/music and with the desire to achieve better ways to enjoy music.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Dear Tpreaves: In some ways you are right till you find " something " that break your everyday paradigms and this Technics cartridge break audio paradigms and myths.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Dear Elizabeth: Maybe could be time to try " new " alternatives.
For many years all of us already have " right in front " other analog source choice and because we are accustom to the same audio paradigms we don't even " look " at " left side ", never is to late to begin with.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Dear SiddH: If you find it please let me know.

regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Dear Stanwal: I own too the Technics EPC 205C MK4 that is one of my favorities and I agree that is a great cartridge ( either MM/MI or LOMC. ).

As good the 205MK4 it is a little short against the P100C MK4 ( even both cartridge specs are different and in favor of the P100C MK4. ), we have to remember that this cartridge was the Technics " master piece ": nothing less.

+++++ " But I never heard of ANY p mount cartridge that could compete with a good standard mount given the compromises necessary by the mounting system. " +++++

please re-read my Technics review where I be very specific on that mounting " compromise " you name it and that fortunately is solve: no compromises at all.

If you want a first rate MM/MI alternative that happen is a P-mount design ( where you can attest or not about your concern. ) you can get ( by " cents ". ) the Azden YM-P50VL in NOS condition ( that I name it in the review. ) here with Nick: [email protected]

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Dear Don_c55: +++++ " The "Absolute best of" Posts are ridiculous! " +++++

maybe yes and maybe not, it depend of what audio item we are talking about, what surrounded that audio item, whom are talking about and why are talking about ( between other things ).

This is what I posted in the thread: +++++ " to know for the " best " " audio item " that IMHO and till today does not exist in " absolute " meaning. " +++++

so in principle/beginning I agree with you but the world as life and everything that surrounded us ( including audio ) in more or less way is changing in a constant way.

I like to ask me " stupid " or unorthodox questions: hey what happen if instead to use a " normal/usual " VTA/SRA set up I change for an unusual ( very high. ) one ? hey what happen if instead to use the " normal " ( rule ) load for MM cartridges at 47K to 100K? hey what happen if I don't use any plinth with my TT? and many other questions and you know what I always discover/learn something for the better or wrong that when " for the better " many times goes against the usual " paradigms/myths "/establishment in audio even against Theory.

This thread is more to ask to every one of us to leave behind us those old paradigms/myths ( not all of them. ) that could stop growing the high end audio industry in detriment/against of the music enjoy.

This Technics cartridge is IMHO a very good example that could give us the opportunity to be and think not only different but oriented to improve faster what we have on hand today. I will try through this thread along other contributors to explain that almost always exist the " best of.." audio item.

+++++ " LOMC are always superior (in long term listening) to MM/MI " +++++

That the Technics cartridge is a MM design it does not have importance and the thread is not the place to analize LOMC against MM , if you want to know more about please go to that long MM/MI thread where you can find several answers/experiences from many people that think in different way you do even they think the subject is " the other way around "!

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Dear Halcro: Thank you. I think that we can grow up faster if we take out/off the very old " spider's web " we each one has at the " ceiling ".

If each one of us almost always are on the quest of better home audio system quality performance then it makes sense to use and ask and try every " road " we think could/can help to be nearest to that target quest, even " crazy/stupid " ideas!: Henry I learn that not all are/is already writed on high end Audio! and we are so fortunate to be part of the " future " writings because we are actors not mere spectators.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Dear Alun: IMHO any additional gain stage like is need it in LOMC cartridges only can makes a signal degradation, normally in audio " less means more " but this is not what or can tell the whole " history ", maybe in other thread we could discuss deepest that subject.

Thank you to been here. What do you think on " the best " cartridge ever? makes sense to you?

regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Dear Dgarretson: +++++ " To the majority who will never cross this psychological devide, spend money to express yourself! " +++

this is part of what I want to talk in the thread: that part of the audiophile/audio high end establishment that almost never change.

Btw, yes this Technics cartridge is better in the bass frequency range that the Azden and this means a lot.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Dear Travbrow: ++++++ " The things that make me wonder,why some of the new "state of the art" cartridges are not much better than some of "state of the art" models from 20-30 years ago.. " ++++++

there are many reasons ( each one of us have an opinion ) about from the " who cares " audio industry on the customers needs, poor voicing audio items design, only commercial oriented products, " corrupted " professional reviewers, non know-how, audio establishment, no research any more, etc, etc of course there are exceptions ( designers, reviewers, etc, etc ) to those facts. We need a new thread only to try to have answers precise answers to your critical question because this happen not only with cartridges but with other audio items/links that conform the audio chain.

+++ " Its a shame Technics/Panasonic doesn't produce these fine cartridges anymore. " +++++

agree and I can add that it is a shame that other manufacturers already " disappear " and that some great audio item designers already almost lose the " emotion " and old attitude that when they start theirs " history " in the audio industry, not all of course but many. Same for pro-audio reviewers.

In many ways I think that always ( time to time ) is important to think/return to our " roots " to remember why we are HERE and what put me HERE.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Dear Mosin: +++++ " I own a 205, and it is a stellar cartridge that competes even with the $5000 MC I have. " +++++

well I appreciate that people like you take the time to try old analog source alternatives like the MM/MI one.

That the audio establishment already preclude its existence does not means it is not there alive and waiting for all of us to give each one great rewards.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Dear Audioquest4life: Certainly not. I give answer according what people posted.

You can read this ( in the thread ) in one of my posts/answer that confirm which is or not the thread subject:

+++++ " That the Technics cartridge is a MM design it does not have importance and the thread is not the place to analize LOMC against MM. " +++++

I have to answer six other posts more thread subject oriented.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Dear Halcro: That was only an example and the Formula 1 maybe was an over-kill to a humble Civic.

The example was to understand in more easy way the whole subject, only that.

+++ " and who can drive it ( fine tunning at its needs. Not what I like but what it needs. ) )." ++++++

that is more or less what you posted ( it is critical an essential. )

+++++ " requiring the talented input of a human to extract that potential performance " +++++

++++ " Surely the sole purpose of an audio system is to produce the best (most accurate ) " +++++

This cartridge shows from its specs and measures that its accuracy is second to none and this accuracy shows it again when " ride " the recording grooves.

It is a pity that is not a current model.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Dear T-bone: Yes the EPC-P100CMK4 comes out in 1982.

Now, as I point out in the Technics review the EPC 205C MK4 IMHO was the latest " top of the line " ( only down the EPc 100C MK4 ) that Technics build/design in 1984, I own it and is a winner too and more " easy " to find than its big brother.
The 205 was build in three different " presentations ": in integrated headshell, P-mount design and normal 1/2" mount cartridge ( this is the one I own. ). Btw, its output level is higher at 2.5mv.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Dear Pedrillo: That " call " is for Technics.

Today we have several cartridge designers and as I told in the cartridge review my highest hope is that some one of them take " his time " to design not only a cartridge that can even the quality performance of the Technics one but that beat it.
Only the times to come could tell if this can be a reality.
In begin I think that sooner or latter will appear a new today cartridge design that deserve to be name it " the best ".

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Dear Driveman: Enough gain with no noise/distortions. Even the Essential 3160 can handle even a little lower MM/MI output level designs through its MM phono stage.

You don't need the MC dedicated stage not only because of gain but because the MM dedicated stage was designed to cope the MM/MI specific/precise needs that are different from the LOMC needs.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Dear Travbrow: What if you or any one else can't put his hands on that Technics cartridge any more?
how about the second-third " the best " that you can buy in NOS condition today?

yes, I'm refering to the " ridiculous low price " Azden YM-P50VL cartridge.

Buy it while it last, this kind of opportunity does not comes " every day " and the seller stock is not " infinite " but low one: is an out of production item.

Of course that if you think like other persons that before invest ( 200.00 ) in an audio item wants that other 10-15 persons recommended then you lose the only opportunity that you have to enjoy it.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Dear Mordante: IMHO is useless any comments in your "
philosophical " opinion other that I'm not speculating
not even in theoretical way what I posted in this thread are
experienced facts.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Dear Mordante: I know that the Dorian is your " best " cartridge.
Well, if you can spend 200.00 buy the Azden one and if you think that after the Azden settle down and you fine tunning it that the Dorian is still your best one then let me know , send me the Azden and I pay for it.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Dear friends: Looking for the " best " as a whole audio system, looking to achieve not only nearest to the recording but almost " on the recording ", looking for better " roads " to achieve top analog ( through cartridges. ) music enjoyment I try and take different options that today help me to be " nearest ", like many of you.

You can read in my virtual system everything I change in my amplifiers/speakers/subs/etc, to be " there " even I have to build/design ( with José ) my own phono stage and own line stage and with Guillermo a tonearm/mat and on deck an amplifier.

Why I take all these hard work/research in those different item projects, just for fun?, no that's was/is because I don't find the items " out there " that help me in more precise way to be " nearest/there " and our designs already help me on that quest a lot.

In the past ( last five years I guess, maybe more .) I spend 100K+ heavy dollars only testing/enjoying LOMC cartridges and around 10K on MM/MI ones.
This investment with only one target: that some way or the other some of those cartridges " give me " what I'm looking for.

Well, the Technics EPC-P100C MK4 is the analog source that put me " almost there " ( btw and belive me: as more hours running this cartridge is improving over what I posted in the cartridge review!!!. ) and I share this great experience with you becaus eI think is important, unfortunately only the few owners of this cartridge can enjoy it due that is a vintage/non current cartridge production.

Finally I find the analog source true Reference and following/reading the Pedrillo/Travbow restlessness on how attain that cartridge quality performance yesterday Guillermo and I had a meeting on the subject and decide/talk that due that we already have the " Reference " maybe it is time to make our self design phono cartridge, we will meet again to discuss in formal way this exciting new project.
Of course that we have to finish the tonearm/mat projects first than the phono cartridge one.

Fortunately my friends/fellows/partners are people that makes things happen, we have a good team I can say.

We will see how that project comes.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Dear friends: I forgot, we already write the first target on this phono cartridge project design: that can be affordable to almost any one.

We don't know yet ( still we are un-experienced in this subject. ) if that first target is or can be compatible with the second target: that the new cartridge be " the best " with no excuse in any " audio environment ".

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Dear Mordante: Well, do you take my offer or leave it?, I really mean it.
This offer is not because your post content but to give you the opportunity to be more satisfied that what you already are: you can't lose!

regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Dear Chucktone: Agree, music is all about. I remind that on what I posted here somewhere.

A thread like this give us the opportunity or not for some one of us can/could improve the joy that the MUSIC already give us through our car stereo or a memorable Walkman: that's all.

Music and what it represent always move our " feelings " it does not matters which the source is.

Music is one of the : " Belle Art ", nothing less.

The audio hardware is only a " badly necessity ".

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Dear Dertonarm: IMHO when you are in " front " or have or design/build or whatever of " the best " ( any item, it does not matters which one. ) and you, me or other person does not like it this subjective fact means only that: that does not likes " the best " but does not and can't argue ( ok can but is useless to prove it. ) that " the best " is not " the best " only because I don't like it or because I'm " deaf " or because my music knowledge is poor or because my system has several limitations or because that hearing day I was out of mood or because I think that " the best " does not exist.

My opinion about is a way deep and extremely wide meaning that what you understand about. My language ( english ) limitations preclude to explain in a better way the whole subject.

I can understand that you don't like , after hearing it, a " the best " audio item but that fact in no way diminish that " the best " product.
Of course that if you made/make a test with say 100 different persons in a almost non-limited audio system and 97% of them say: I don't like it, then certainly that audio item is no " the best ".

Certainly too I can prove that an audio item is " the best " ( like this Technics one. ) if really is " the best ", we only need a controled and not biased live experiment/test.
I don't have the founds to do it but if any one out there is interested on it and support it in financial way then I take the challenge.

Daniel, IMHO we can't grow up if always think in the same " arcaic " way. If We want to be better/improve then we have to make things/think different to change the audio mediocrity that surrounded all of us.

I don't want to convince you or any one else that think that exist " the best " in all areas/subjects in our live but to be or to find " the best " is what give me the " gasolyne " to go a head in my life projects till I find that " the best ".
Several times ( to often. ) I can't meet " the best " but when I do/did the rewards are so amazing/outstanding that all my falls are worth to " suffer " for that " sole " find.

Yes, my way to " see " the life is a little different from yours and that's fine with me.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Dear friends: Finally I can post the Technics cartridge review with some ( not very good ) pictures. You can go inside here:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ranlg&1268864860

or make " click " on my moniker " reviews ".

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Dear friends: Tl, Dm and Tw, I come back latter on the subject. It is a very complex subject with a complex surrounded environment and I want to elaborate a post that can explain in better way what are my thoughts about for any one of you can " understand " what I mean.

I have to say that I don't disagree totally with what each one posted because all that is part of the high end audio establishment ( the good part of it. ) in what are my believes but things are that time to time some of that believes change ( for the good or bad. ) and that's what I'm experiences with the Technics audio item.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Dear friends: Six-seven years ( even today with less frequence. ) ago was often read threads like this: " which is the best tonearm? " and everybody name it and gives opinion to answer it.
In “ tose “ times no one cares and I mean it no one cares about the tonearm " couple ": the cartridge.
Then I start to post(ed) something like this: " with which cartridge? " and the people ( not all of them but many. ) does not understand my question, today almost all take in count the so intimate relationship between tonearm and cartridge before ask it.

For those times too I start to support DD TT's as an option/alternatiive to BD TT's, in specific the SP-10MK2/3.
I can remember that the big Agon boys just laught about and I mean it too: laugh about.

Today that DD TT alternative is more alive than ever and many of those Agoner's that laughed of me are enjoying the music with the SP-10's TT's.

Four-five years ago I " remember " me that exist the MM/MI analog alternative and start to talk/post on the subject with no questions or answers almost no comment from the Agoner's.

Today exist a very confortable and wide audio community hearing/testing/trying and enjoying the MM/MI analog source alternative. This audio community is growing up faster that any one could wait and sooner or latter all of us will be touched by it.
Btw and for this MM/MI audio community: do you know that somewhere someone already call us ( this same year. ) : " lunatics "?, I read it and just ignore it.

In the same manner I start to talk about SS electronics against the tube option. This subject was and is defended by tube lovers like if they are going to lose his life.
Today, very slowly, people turn around its " face " to SS, very slowly for say the least.

All these are only a few examples, there are additional ones.

Why am I reffering to it?, all of us, some way or the other, are part of the audio high end establishment that has non writing " rules and norms and myths and lies and trues " that are what surrounded and what command our each one audio decisions and what put the " speed " and where the high end can grow up.

In all this audio high end establishment ( the whole audio high end industry.: designers, builders, retailers, reviewers, customers, etc, etc. ) there are good things and bad things and different level of those " things ".

Well, why six years ago I " receive " so many " bad and wrong " answers/opinions/people attitude?, easy what I was/am talking about goes against the " establishment ", the establishment was not " prepare " to accept those audio " subjects " in those times: were inoportune.

The " engine/gas " that make the establishment move on or change ( that does extremely slowly. ) is obviously what move on almost any human acctivity: money, nothing wrong with that if IMHO that establishment move on always with honesty that IMHO many times does not do/did it.

They likes to " control " we the customers and " they " use any " tool/weapon/false arguments " to achieve their " cloudly " targets and to make us think what they want it not what we want and deserve.

I'm not against the audio high end establishment because I'm part of it and my overall knowledge mainly comes " living " inside. What I'm against is in the deshonesty “ actions “ that many times the establishment use.

There are a lot of examples of that " deshonesty " I'm talking about and I call deshonesty because " they " are tell us lies in favor of $$$$$.

I would like to post a clear/precise example of it: three days ago a very reputable ( that I respect and even I recommended his tube products. ) Agoner and electronic designer/manufacturer posted somewhere in this forum:

+++++ " he's right. Tubes make lower-ordered distortions, much more preferable to the human ear than the higher, odd-ordered distortions of solid state.
Tube distortions can be dramatically reduced by careful design. " ++++++

well, today with this lie/false myth he want to " conserve " and develop his market niche ( $$$$$ ) against other technologies like SS.

Nothing wrong with $$$$$$ if what he posted was a true and not something not only controversial but totally falseo r orientes onloy for tubes and not tell us the whole “ environment “ where SS lives too.

This kind of post on the tube subject was and is exactly the same six years ago, this means that the SS designers/manufacturers does not grow up: full of " stupid " SS electronics manufacturers!!!! That can’t do nothing to avoid odd harmonics!

I don't posted anything against this lier ( two years ago, I did that. ) but other Agoner that I respect too give him a clear and precise and true answer ( an answer that is not promoted by the audio high end establishment. ):

+++++ " If you want the 2nd order distortions of the better triodes, you can have them with transistors too. It is a matter of design - not tube vs. Transistors. " +++++

but he ignore it and follow promoting his market niche with an additional post:

+++++ " The second order thing about tubes in general is only with SETs- when operating push-pull even-ordered harmonics are cancelled. The nice thing is that you don't get the 5th, 7th and 9th which are unpleasant and used by the ear as loudness cues. " +++++

Just pathetic!.

The audio high end establishment does not permit that we customers " learn ", grow up or take audio decisions ( $$$ ) against it, we are free of almost nothing.

Deny the existence of " the best audio item " goes against the establishment ( the no existence of " the best " is a false protection between all of them. It is a convenience. ) and goes against what the establishment already say to us and what already all of us learn.

Only a few of us take the challenge to think different/outside from a part of the establishment " rules ".

Many of yours answers in this thread against the existence of " the best " were already/inconcient conditioned by what the establishment put in our brains over the time.
They don't give us other " options " to think so we are unaware on subjects like " the best ", what really means and why we need several " the best " audio items out there.

I know almost for sure that some of you already think that your each one audio system is " the best " but are all to shy or don't have the the precise arguments to disclose in this forum. Remember the thread: How good is your system?, no focus/precise answers on anybody. Wonder why?

IMHO it is the audio high end establishment what already surrounded us of " mediocrity ". I hate any kind of " mediocrity " in this world but I have to live with. Today that establishment mediocrity promoted by " them " is what today goes against “ they “ grow up with a lot better $$$$$$ for that establishment.

The establishment push me ( thank you for that. ) to find better alternatives in audio to achieve the top pleasure that music always can give each one of us through our audio systems performance.

That's why we design the Essential 3160, that's why we are finishing our self universal tonearm design, an universal TT Mat, that's why we are in the amplifier design and that's why we decided to start a phono cartridge design project ( as you can read, this project " born " thank's to what some of you posted in this thread. ).

IMHO today the establishment is not ready to accept " the best " , we will see over the years to come: remember the tonearm/cartridge, the DD TT's, the MM/MI alternative, etc, etc.?

The time sooner or latter always puts “ things “ in the right place/perspective, where belongs.

In the mid-time the Technics EPC-P100C MK4 is today IMHO " the best " cartridge ever and my audio item Reference to our future phono cartridge self design!!!!!, period.

The next question is for all but especially for Dertonarm and people with that kind of audio/music knowledge and with top quality performance systems:

so you can discern/distinguish a different quality performance from similar audio items ( amplifiers, preamps, cartridges, etc, etc ) you can discern/distinguish better quality performance between similar audio items but with all those " heavy " audio/music " luggage " can't discern when an audio item achieve the " the best " status?!!!!!!!

I only want to add that " the best " is not a subjective ( I like it! ) main opinion, you can find a " the best " audio item that even does not like you and this can't IMHO diminish its " the best " status.

A main factor ( not the only ) to find " the best " is to follow not-writed/writing audio/music standards.

The music is well The Music: it does not matters if you like more Bach than Handel, boht are great and not because you like more Back this fact diminish the Handel greatness ( this is only an example not for argue about. ) )

Yes, there are only a few people that can attest about " the best ": it is something that needs specific " training " and it is not what you like it or not but what you learn/trained.

Take a job like the one of a Sommelier, he received an specific training to has the Sommelier status and to know if the Chateu Laffite 1986 is not only better than the 1978 but " the best " even if he does not likes Chateu Laffite but Chateu Margaux or Chateu Latour!!!

Ask this same Sommelier on the Mersault against a Montrachet and you will have a precise “ the best “ answer. Not what he like it but “ the best “.

Can you tell me if Meissen is better than Limoges or Fabergé? Who is for you “ the best “ in a precise “ era/time “ ?, maybe only an expert that is trained in specific can tell us about.

Lalique, Baccarat, Vals st Lambert, Daum ? which “ the best “?, not what you like. Again only a trained person could has the answer.

Are you an audio Sommelier?, think about.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Dear friends: Error>: you read, +++++ " Deny the existence of " the best audio item " goes against the establishment ..." +++++

this is the right sentence:

+*+*+* "" Deny the existence of " the best audio item " for whatever reasons ( even in some of those reasons make " sense ". ) is what IMHO was/is promoted by the extablishment through what " they " already " teach " and put/spread in our brains over those audio years, that's why we think/speak what we think/speak... "" +*+*+*

Always is and are time to change for the better in benefit of the audio high end establishment!!!

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Dear Pedrillo: I think that maybe some care about the true and some of them know the true but the majority don't want to hear the true because IMHO are unaware exist that " true and this is maybe why we feel like they don't care about the true: all them already have the establishment true ( for the good or bad. ) and like I say are unaware of a different true then : who cares?

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Dear Nandric: I understand your point of view that I respect too but IMHO an according what I posted your statements cover only a part of the whole subject on " the best " that's a complex subject.

I will return to the Sommelier example: this kind of person distinguish between excellent two wines differences where he can't say which is better but only different, he can distinguish between two ( or more ) top wines and telling you which is better and what IMHO makes that this person achieve the Sommelier status is that he can tell you which " the best ".

Do you think that a Sommelier has to taste or already tasted all the thousands and thousands of wines out there in the last 30-40 years?, certainly not what happen is that he study and receive a specific in deep training to make his especial work.
Obviously because you don't understand what an audio Sommelier is then you are unaware of its existence but they exist: people ( few of them ) with specific training/ habilities/capacities.

You need an specific training to develop the Sommelier ( in wines ) knowledge and then tell me which is better or " the best ".

You can drive a Formula One racing car in an official race in Monza if you don't have a specific training and even if you think you have it only a few can compete in Formula One official racings.

You can be a 727 airplane pilot but for you can be a 747 pilot you need a specific training where only a few has and can do it.

The audio establishment ( where all belongs. ) already spread on our heads that does not exist " audio Sommeliers " in any audio area because the audio experiences always are subjective/system dependent/subjective/system dependent/subjective/system dependent/subjective......, so what? we are so " stupid/fool " that if we have a specific training that we cultivate over several years that permit discern on something different or distinguish when something is better but with all that specific training we CAN'T discern when we find " the best "????????????

IMHO this has no sense.

Nandric, if you was the owner of Lufthansa ( hypothetic " stupid " example for my part. ) and you are the person that hire 747 Pilots and you have in front of you 10-100 training and full experienced 747 pilots and you say no these 747 pilots does not exist yet and you don't hire them because of that believe and then your 747's stay in land for ever.

Nandric, IMHO we need one way or the other try to think ( sometime. ) in different way ( it does not harm or kill any body. ), try to help audio evolution, try to help the audio establishment in benefit of the establishment.

Please don't say " does not exist " or " can't be true " when you have just in fron of you.

Of course there is no easy to find " the best " in the different audio areas even if you have the " audio Sommelier " status but this IMHO does not means that " the best " does not exist because: EXIST!!!!!!

Gentlemans, I'm not against any one single of you I'm WITH YOU!

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Dear Timeltel/Nandric: Unfortunately there is no Maxim's de Paris restaurant everywhere, so to know it and understand what I meaning you must to go ( till one year was here in México. ) to Europe, China or Hong Kong. I attend here in México and in Paris too.

Maxim's de Paris is not a restaurant it is IMHO " the best " example of what any one could desire in a " boutique " status restaurant that btw posses maybe the greatess wine cellar in the world.
It is not a restaurant for any one even if you can pay it. Itt is a restaurant to people that has the knowledge or accustom to.

Well, a long history short: if you are an expert on wines and ask for Mersault 98 of the Bouchard " house/orign " ( I don't know how to say it ) and you ask to taste it before drink it you just can't do it: only the Sommelier can and have that right in benefit of you and what you pay for that wine.

If you are not an expert and already order what you will eat that night and ask for a wine then the only question the Sommelier ask you is: how much money do you want to spend? and after that you will have your bottle of wine: with no choices for you.

In both cases you will absolutely satisfied with the Sommelier " job " and you will remember that night and when you leave Maxim's the first thought to your mind is: to choose your next time in Maxim's!!!!!

On the Sommelier " job " subject his target is only that you be totally ( no excuses. ) satisfied with his choice and you know what: you always be!

Nandric in audio of course that are " added " conditions that's why you " study and training " several years to be an audio Sommelier!

I can but I don't have the time to explain you step by step what any one needs ( whole conditions. ) to achieve that audio " Sommelier " status.

What if you meet ( for the first time ) a person that tell you he is an Ayurvedic Gurú? and you tell him that he can't be ( in this example you don't know nothing about Ayurveda. ) and you tell him this only because you don't know nothing about or because you don't have that kind of training or knoledge or simple because you never been interested on Ayurveda.

All those " feelings " can't say that that man is not what he is or that could not be!

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Dear Dertonarm: I remember now that you " touch " it from the school but no I was not thinking on that.

I start this thread with the Technics cartridge at " hand " because this was the audio item that IMHO deserve that " the best " status.

That the audio item in the thread is a cartridge is important ( like any other audio item. ) but not important to the " the best " subject.

This is the real thread subject: try to talk around " the best " figure like something that some of us can find and share with us.

IMHO the subjective/system-ears dependent argument is no consistent when you or any one else ( I already posted: there are some audio Sommeliers out there, including you. ) has the " training " for be an audio " Sommelier ".

Why is so difficult to accept " the best "? maybe because some of you are shy to say: " I'm an audio Sommelier? or because maybe you are an audio Sommelier but the other people does not believe in you? or maybe because you think you are when in reality you are not yet?

I see " the best " subject like a very important part in any human activity and always is difficult to find " the best " and define who has the capacity to discern what is " the best ".

Maybe the problem is that some of you are shy to by your self come here and say: I'm ( even if you don't have yet a " the best " audio item. ).

Gentlemans, does not exist yet in the audio high end or in this forum a " chiefs board " and a Chairman of the board that could be the persons that can give the audio Sommelier status to any one.
So, we have to start by our self and not because any one think we " are " but because in reality/honesty some of you has that kind of " training ".
This is the very first step to in a second step accept " the best ".

I'm not sure if this is the time to do it, if the audio high end and this and other forums already has the " audio mature " need it to give those " steps ".

Last but not least is that maybe because " Raul " is the proponent many of you not only can't accept it but even not want to discuss it.

Again, Gentlemans: the subject has nothing to do with who is the proponent or who start the thread. The importance of the whole subject is wide and deep and beyond any single person and what that person think. The subject is not about " Raul ", period.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Dear Driveman: 150pf. I think was in the cartridge review:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ranlg&1268864860

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Dear Timeltel: +++++ " but even my minimally enlightened perception still respects the validity of informed opinion and well examined personal choice by others. " +++++

I did and I do always. I don't like useless " confrontations " but build or try to build in favor of us and the music.

The " confrotations " always exist I try that that " confrotations " ( when I'm inn ) finish in something positive for almost all. I always learn with.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Dear Nandric: +++++ " I don't belive in any a priori truth. " ++++

me either.

+++++ " But I am sure that Raul will announce at once to his friends in his thread about the MM carts if he
discover some cart that is even better then EPC 100. " +++++

this is important and let me explain:

by the last 2-3 years I'm looking for audio items/links in the audio system chain to " the best " status with out luck and know that I found it result that is an out of production product, yes this is my very first " the best " audio item in a commercial product.

Certainly I almost know that in the future will appear some " the best " audio items and I hope I can detect it as I hope some of you then can detect it too.

+++++ " So he obviously have some other understanding of 'the best' then some other have. " +++++

yes, if not then " the best " was/will not cause controversy. The good news is that out there IMHO exist persons that has the same understanding about and what means and why's around " the best ".
That " understanding " means: training, specific on purpose training.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Dear Dertonarm: +++++ " t may sound to some as the pinnacle of the art of cartridge, but there are cartridges out there showing more what's in the groove. " +++++

I agree, more distortions and I mean it.

If you want to talk or share your today EPC-P100C MK4 experiences against those other " cartridges " you are welcome to do it.

+++++ " They came - and they vanished again. " +++++

certainly the EPC-P100C MK4 ( I hope ) in a near future will hand over/decline in favor of the next " the best " cartridge, I hope too this cartridge can be a " today " one and not a vintage one.

Dear Dertonarm, please " listen and listen well ": " the best " status is here to stay, remember this in the years to come.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Dear Dertonarm: +++++ " EPC-P100c/4 does smooth out the sound - as many good MMs and MIs do.
It (and 99.99% of all other cartridges) lacks the physical presence I am accustomed to get from reel-to-reel machines and I know I can get from a cartridge too.
But I never heard it from any MM or MI. " +++++

IMHO you need to hear in your today system this cartridge. What you say that never attain with MM/MI is precisely part of what you get with the Technics. Please read again the cartridge review about.
The name of the game to achieve that physical presence is how good a cartridge " express " dynamics and all what means dynamics.
This cartridge IMHO put new standards on cartridge dynamics and that's why I think is nearest to the recording and nearest to the live event music dynamics. Is simple: outstanding, that's why ( beteewn other atributes. ) is " the best ".

+++++ " It was widely forgotten in the past 2.5 decades. " +++++

yes the high end audio establishment decide to " hide " not only this " subject " but many others but this fact does not diminish in anyway the greatness of this cartridge and as I posted: that's a MM analog source is only an " accident ".

+++++ " is that the wheel is e-invented over and over again.
There is nothing really new in cartridge design today, which wasn't there in 1980. " +++++

I can't agree more with you. As you know in several posts some of us agree with that statement and I can add at least the same for TT and tonearms.

The Technics EPC-P100C MK4 is a confirmation of your statement and there are many other examples in several audio areas.

It is a must that the today high end establishment change for the better in favor of customers and thw whole establishment.

+++++ " may simply have to do with different biases and different preferences in taste (here we go again - individuality...). " +++++

this statement is very important on the " the best " subject and on what we agree or not on audio subjects.

I agree in part with but try to follow spreading the " myth " ( for me. ) of absolute audio individuality like the argument that preclude the existence of " the best " is only part of the overall " the best " agressive environment, is part of the establishment ( IMHO a bad part ) and a false breeze over our each one head that the establishment already put there and that many of you " die for ".

Let me explain what I think about:

the human nature made/makes that almost all of us growed up trying to learn and be better. Our each one " ego " makes that some of us were/are extremely competitive ( always wants win. ) every single day in whatever human activity we are involve even if we don't have the tools/skills and deep overall knowledge on that " activity ", even some of us " live " only with the everyday hope to be " recognizable/grateful " for other people: with or with out merits.

The big " mass/part " of human individuality IMHO does not exist, 90% of our individuality on audio/music is the same, our goals are almost the same. We can have a little different music taste but at the end we are looking the pleasure/joy of home music reproduction at its greatness level.
Of course that we are more " important " persons if we are " different " from the masses/majorities that we are not.
You are a very clear example on this: " hey I came from Krypton and by biases, taste, system, experience, goals, etc, etc are way different, is useless to speak about because you can't understand! "

you already posted something like this several times and ( in good shape ) I laugh everytime not from you but what that means in reallity.
I can live with that and can " talk " with you even if you think ( seriously or not. ) came from Krypton ( that you did not. ), because IMHO your music home system reproduction overall goals are more similar to mines than different. Are there differences? of course but IMHO not irreconzilable ones.
IMHO no one lives in an island and " aisle " totally from the human nature Earth environment.

I'm not on sale or buying nothing not even my thougths and opinion, I would like that we all try to think for a few minutes/hours " out of the audio high end establishment ": with no prejudice of any kind.

It is obvious that the most important part of each individuality is on that remaining 10% of what I talk about. Is this 10% what makes real and unique differences that create different audio-person stratums with different level on each one stratum.

Several factors incident to separate in very clear way those stratums:

our live music experiences, recording involve/know how, whole audio knowledge, experiences with different own audio systems and experiences with other people audio systems, audio discipline level and the " right " process and training to discern quality performance system and music reproduction differences, audio technical know-how, attitude in favor of music and in favor to grow up for the better, sprit to be an actor and not a mere spectactor on where the audio high end goes, good experienced ears and understanding what the music can/could makes for us and for our each one joy and happiness through a home audio systems, knowledge on our each one limitations, knowledge on the home audio system intrinsic/natural limitations, know how of the audio high end today establishment, capacity to think different and take actions according, to own a first rate quality performance audio system , top audio/music quality targets, years of posaitive " training ", etc, etc
Any one of you can add some other " factors ".

Well, IMHO all those factors and more makes a " free " and natural/automatic " grouping " for all the audio people in those diffrent stratums levels.

No one put me there or put you or any one in " that " stratum ": it is a " natural " selection/action.

We belongs where we belongs, nothing more nothing less and obviously we can improve about and as a fact we all are " working " on even if we don't care about.

Well, IMHO only the top stratum audio/music people ( where some of you are. ) has the capacities/overall training to discern about " the best " audio items subject and other " out of establishment " subjects along with the " luck " to find out that " the best ".

Now, IMHO if you or any one insist that is way " different " due to his " individuality " that's fine with me but in no way diminish the " the best " existence figure.

My position is not philosophical or something like that: I only want to live with out " deceit ", with the foots well positioned on floor and with out compromises other than those God decide.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Dear Syntax. That's exactly what the audio high end establishment say/said and " we " follow it like " robots ".

That's why we are still in 2010 speaking, raving, enjoying and using 1970 audio products instead the today ones!!!! and this could tell me that if that AHE establisment does not change fast in favor of customer real needs then those " vintage " products will grow up in more and more home audio systems out there.

Save the Planet!!!!!

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Dear Dertonarm: I now exactly what means "physical presence", you are not the only person that heard it through RtR.

The thread is not about you, here the subject is beyond you, me or any one else so don't try to follow your inferior " ego ".

This thread don't sale anything and unfortunatelly you can't take off your seller hat, yes IMHO you are part of the " cloudly " audio high end establishment.
Everybody nows that you sale vintage cartridges ( FR. ), vintage tonearms ( FR )/TT, transformers and the like and every word you posted ( one way or the other ) are " promoting " what you sale.

You are very wise about a good seller and nothing wrong with that but that attitude is not the one that I'm looking for in this thread.
You already take advantage on this thread to promote that " great " unknow cartridge and to put veils of " mystery " and put interest on Agoner's, this is the way you " action ": seeing in favor of you only and how make money easy money, like I say the " cloudly/bad " part of the audio high end establishment.

It is useles/futile to go on with when you persist with your seller attitude.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Dear Syntax: I'm not reffering you , the statement: ++ It is their next one. "+++ in many ways goes against us customers.

I think that that fact could be change in the future for the better in the same " size " that we customers grow up on audio/music knowledge.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Dear Downunder: May is to close for me, RMFA will be fine or better yet: México city and then Huatulco Harbors or Can Cun to take a healthy " refresh " . I can organize an audio-music-beach-Monte Alban/Teotihuacan-tour for a week for all of us.

We can have a " convention " type here and maybe begin/found the " International HE Audiophile Association " in favor of the AHEE.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Dear friends: That could be fine. We can have two meetings: one in May and one in October here in México.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Dear Mike: As interesting as is the RTR source quality performance what Pedrillo sugest was/is a cartridge shootout and this will be nice and learning.

IMHO maybe the RTR/cartridge comparison could be for a next time, but if the majority decided it then is fine for me.

An audio shootout is always fun and if we can take advantage to start/build that Association that will be nice because I think that we all as a " group " better yet as organize group we can/could help to improve what we all ready have and what we all aspire to as members of the Audio High End Establishment.

As an organized group ( Association ) we can be in touch with several other Audiophile/audio-customers associations that already exist all over the world by many years to " work " in benefit of the AHEE where all belongs.
Dertonarm, remember what you an me ( others too. ) talks about some audio standards and the need to do/start something about?, well this is a good opportunity.

If you like ( all of you ) the idea to come to México, maybe just after/before RMFA ( I think in October. ), then I have the time to organize the " tour " and we all have the time to organize for that and to define: cartridges, records, shootout " process ", etc, etc.

In the other side IMHO an audio shootout could be more " positive " to do it in a well controled and more alike of what we all have: a home audio system instead an audio show room.

Aside this could be a good opportunity to know each other and talk on what we love/like.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

¡ Oh ! and don't forget the Mezcal and Chapulines!!! that can be waiting for all of you.

regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Dear Downunder: +++++ " I have the "magical" Technics EPC-P100C-MK4 & Ortofon A90.

Raul can bring his vdh aligned Technics EPC-P100C-MK4

Dertonarm - you can bring a miyabe and your secret cartridge.

Lewm can bring his Ortofon M20FL super as the overachieving low cost cart.

Syntax, what are you going to bring? " +++++++

we are talking on two different analog source alternatives ( MC and MM/MI ) and IMHO in a shootout we need that both alternatives be " linked " with what each one needs, especially the MM/MI phono stage. It is desirable that the shootout could be fair or as close it can for both alternatives.

regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Dear Dertonarm: It depends of what we all really want it: a serious cartridge shootout or a shootout just for fun.

Just for fun any of the commercial units you name it can be use.

I take the Pedrillo good idea of the shootout to more than a " simple " shootout make something where all of us can " learn " on the why's of the contest results, trade offs and how we can take advantage on those learning exercise and due that we meet in a serious way then could be a good opportunity to begin/build that International AHE Audiophile Association and leave that meeting with something real where all of us can participate and be actors in the near future and not only spectators on how the AHEE must grow up.
Well only my thoughts, unfortunately I can't be there in May but like I say we can have a meeting/tour again by October that you already posted will be at 2-3 hours from Mexico city.

In principle other that the " tour " I would like that all of us can have the opportunity to be in " touch " with three MM/MI cartridges: the Technics one, the Azden YM-P50VL and the AKG P-100 LE and in the other side the Olympos, A-90 and other two top LOMC cartridges that any one of you can suggest.
With this in mind and especially with the MM/MI's my target/priority is that these cartridge can be " serve " in even overall conditions as the LOMC ones.

Anyway, here IMHO is not the place to discuss and to achieve the whole factors/needs/touring and the like of the meeting.

Like you there I'm focus here.

This kind of meetings can be make by the desire of the " community " my email ( as yours ) is open for any kind of suggestion about and for the people can say/decide: I will be there, count with me for May or October.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Dear friends: Thinking in " high voice " maybe some of you could take the October meeting here in México like family holidays/vacation where I can organize activities for the family ( wife and soons/childs. ) while we are on the Audio meeting and obviously we can organize activities for the group / whole family.
There are a lot of things to know and food to eat/drink.

Just " open " thoughts.

regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.