Is the KAB Fluid Damper worth it if...
I switched the brass cones out for some Gingko Mini Clouds. I had a base made by a friend of mine so I wanted something different. I like the sound a little better, seems to be more bass & a blacker background. I put pictures in the System page. My friend did the base for $45.00. I did the stain, I went for a antique look. |
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07-20-08: TvadTvad, thanks for the intriguing post. I have a couple of questions. 1. The SL12x0 series is often accused of having a narrow stereo image, with a soundstage width limited to the speaker locations. Did re-setting the alignment change the stereo image, and how? 2. Did you already get rid of that AT150MLX? Did improved alignment affect vocal sibilants and surface noise? |
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I just got the KAB Fluid Damper 2 days ago. I am using the Ortofon 2M Blue cartridge which is not particularly finicky, nor is it a naturally great tracker. In my case, the fluid damping is a major, major improvement in performance. Spitty sibilants have been all but eliminated, and hard-to-track vocals no longer seem to present a challenge to the cart. I have a thread in which I've posted before and after needle-drops. I'm posting the fluid-damped samples as I type this. You can download them here. |
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07-09-08: RadioheadokplayerYeah, but that's the point of spikes or cones--terminating in a small point. Spikes and cones are everywhere and it's not like components and speakers are tipping over and falling over throughout the audio world. The weight of the component is concentrated on those 4 small points. In the case of an SL12x0 turntable plus the Heavyfeet, you have 30 lbs. concentrated on the area of four points. That means the pressure from above is highly concentrated, and it's why components don't usually wobble when set on cones. |
my concern about the heavyfeet is that it looks rather fragile to rest a tt player upon.....certainly intriguing for something mechanical but less so like a cd player. the heavyfeet over some sort of wooden board resting on its own feet would seem even less sturdy. I may try and then if unhappy could then try under my cd player....money back guarantee from mapleshade so tempting...the isonoe from kabusa does not have a money back guarantee... |
07-07-08: RadioheadokplayerSo far some A'goners have gotten Threaded Heavyfeet, and at least one has gotten Isonoe Footers, but I don't think anyone so far has had or tried both. It's something a lot of us are wondering. |
Alright so solving this issue... To make Daytons perform and correctly fit with the right platform.. First you need the fender washers.. But they need to be 2" diameter with a 1/4" center hole... Now this will fit over the entire assembly pretty secure, However this does not hold them center nor tighten all the way... SO 2 other things need to be done, one is making this process even simpler... You need M6 Threaded nuts, I forget if they are the 100 pitch or the .75 pitch threads on the daytons, I bought both and one set was correct the others were not. You will take the M6 nut and simply pre-bolt the fender washer right to the dayton cone up front making it as one installed assembly before screwing it into the table.. First off these M6 nuts act as a Jam nut and hold the washer and cone solid so they don't un-screw or sway from the table now... Secondly these nuts fill the GAP exactly the height needed between the Technics threaded insert and the Molded feet edge touching the washer making the washer now be a solid steel Plate as if it was made right into the table. However there is one small thing here.. SOME of the technics feet can be slightly drilled deeper than others from table to table it seems... And some of the original holes might be between 1/8th to 1/16" too SHALLOW drilled. That means the Dayton Shafts that are the threaded portions could be TOO long to bottom out into the threaded inserts on the table meaning now you can not snug the new washer plate assembly totally tight and flat... This is an easy fix, DO NOT DRILL THE TABLE!! But instead take a dremel tool with the small cutting wheel and simply ZIP off a 1/16 to a 1/8th" of each Dayton threaded stud making them slightly shorter, and now everything will be completly solid and stable as if it was made for the table and cost you about 27 cents per washer, about 7 cents per Nut.. And about 20 bucks for your spikes. As for leveling,well this is easy now, because the daytons are 2 piece leveling spikes you can get about a half inch height variation out of the tips once you get everything installed solid and correct.. If your platform the table sits on is that bad in the first place that your table is not just a little bit off but way off, than you need take your Maple block or whatever its sitting on and install ANOTHER set of 3 dayton spikes (I suggest a 3 point spike system in this case due to stability, and ease of leveling)under that and then adjust leveling from the maple platform rather than the table feet, and you can fine adjust just about any ruff terrain with the combination of both sets... Which even a 3 spike system under the turntable would be better as well, however of course using the stock locations in this case is really the only option for all 4 feet. |
07-06-08: RadioheadokplayerDitching the Technics TT feet for the brass cones was a big improvement. Before that I had Technics feet on the butcher block, or sometimes Technics feet on Vibrapods on the butcher block, but the brass cones straight onto the butcher block was noticeably better and exposed the music's inner detail for the first time. I just added the washers and got another incremental improvement. I may try Vinylvin's method and increase the washer diameter to span the collars on the bottom of the turntable. My next step after this is to replace the Vibrapods under the butcher block with cork/rubber blocks. I found a supplier for cork/rubber blocks in any number of sizes. An 18"x18" sheet is only about $32. I'm thinking of putting an entire layer of cork/rubber under the butcher block instead of 2"x2" blocks. Since I noticed an improvement adding the washers to the brass cones, I suspect the much denser and heavier Mapleshade threaded Brass Heavyfeet would work even better. But they're $160/set, so I'm waiting on that, especially now that I'm upgrading to Mirage OMD-15 speakers and may be getting a high current amp and bi-wire to drive them. In answer to Tvad's question, yes I level the turntable religiously. I started with the rack, which has three uprights and adjustable spikes at the bottom. I used a 12" carpenter's level, checking in 3 directions for each shelf before adding the one on top. Then when I put the turntable on the top shelf, I checked again. The Dayton cones are also adjustable, as the tips are threaded and can be adjusted relative to the body of the cone. I do try to avoid having to do that, and I was able to get the turntable level while keeping the brass cones screwed tightly together. As an alternative, shimming the Vibrapods from below with playing cards or similar shouldn't affect the sound. |
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"So you have brass cones on the turntable, then a maple platform, then folded paper and then Vibrapods?" Yes, then the Vibrapods sit on a piece of glass that came with my rack. "Do you think placing folded paper under the Vibrapods mitigates their effectiveness, and on the overall effectiveness of the vibration system you have designed?" Maybe. I'm not done yet, I'm just doing a little at a time until I can get a Solid Tech rack. I like the sound I'm getting though. |
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johnny not sure how "less wobbly" isolation cones is better than the technics tt feet alone resting on vibrapods which in turn rest on a butcher block with again the vibrapod also resting underneath the butcher block. If the cones are not perfectly secure not wobbly, there must be better cones out there (that do not cost an arm and a leg) to replace the tt feet if using cones in the mix is preferred. |
Well, I just installed some washers between the cones and the bottom of my SL1210 M5G. I used what are called "fender washers," which have a big flat area and a relatively small hole. Using an M6 bolt as a guide, I selected fender washers with 1/4" dia. hole (just comfortably big enough to slip over the m6 thread) and 1-1/2" diameter, which is just a little bigger than the top of the Dayton cones. It did stabilize the table a little more. The feet are less wobbly. But the diameter of these is small enough to fit inside the round edges, and makes contact with the bottom of the SL12x0. Now, I didn't do exact A-B tests, and for me, putting these washers on and off would be a bit of a struggle, but I put on an LP full of songs I've been familiar with for over 30 years--James Taylor's Greatest Hits on Warner Brothers (Fire & Rain, You've Got a Friend, Sweet Baby James, Mexico, How Sweet It Is...). And I got a sense of going up another notch in clarity, of more space around the notes, of musicians and singers placed in space. My wife noticed it too when I asked her. For example, I'd never much noticed the cello accompaniment throughout "Fire and Rain" until I started listening to it on LP again in the past year. But when I listened today, I didn't just hear the cello, I heard more of its characteristics, such as the scraping of the bow across the strings (but still in the context of an overall integrated sound). Before, I'd hear the cello; this time I felt its presence. You may call me crazy, and it could be my imagination, but at least it only costs $1.15 to find out for yourself. |
07-04-08: RadioheadokplayerI also use Dayton brass speaker cones (from Parts Express) to replace the std. M5G feet. They come with exact screw-in replacement size M6 threads. I definitely noticed an improvement when I replaced the Technics feet with the brass cones. But I haven't put the washers in yet. That'll come next when I remember to pick up a set next time I'm in Home Depot. |
"That must barely fit within the molded edge" It fits over not in, I thought I got one the fit inside the hole but these fit over & worked perfect. It's more like 1/16" thick. It looks nice also. Just pick out ones that are the same, they don't all have the same edge. It sounds so much better with the cones. |
Vinylvin 3/4 " Thick ? Or 3/4 " Diameter ? I tried out some washers, but basic thickness like a Quarter and about the diameter of a Quarter and they did Help a little in stabilizing the cones, however still can tilt pretty easily, just has more resistance to doing so fighting against the accordian style boot fitting with the threaded insert I am guessing it might be that the M5G has a different mounting cup under it than some of the older or other style 1200 series? I don't doubt it as this footer system on the M5g does seem a bit more advanced than what would have been around on 1200 tables in the 80's or 90's etc So maybe that is a difference here in getting the cones to stand solid. |
06-28-08: CytocycleYou're right--the tonearm wire in the SL1210 M5G is pretty good and I haven't had any urge to change it. The tonearm leads in their headshell is another story, however. I just got a set of the silk-wrapped litz ofc cart leads; I'll install 'em in my Technics headshell and see if I notice a difference. Do you have a link to the lighter AT headshells? The lightest I've seen is their magnesium one at www.audiocubes2.com, and it weighs 11g, which is 3.5g more than the std. Technics. |
I owned a SL1210M5G and it doesn't come with the thicker super mat, just the standard one. And when my friend put the thicker mat from KAB on it, the noise floor was lowered.. I highly recommend this upgrade if you aren't ready to do the Isoplate/Herbies upgrade..$$$ AudioTechnica makes some lighter headshells. The big reason you see people change the headshells is for Azimuth Adjustment and to deal with the heavy Denon Carts. The Technics M5G has pretty good OFC copper wire leads.... so this update doesn't make as big of a difference as all the other Technics tables which don't have the upgraded wiring. |
The big advantage to the thicker, heavier mat is that its extra weight dampens the platter better (and that's one ringy mo-fo). The extra weight also slightly increases the flywheel effect of the platter. I don't have a supermat, but I *do* has a sorbothane-based Oracle Groove Isolator mat, which weighs about the same. It brought a noticeable improvement in dynamic range and clarity. As for the headshells, the wire leads on the Technics could bear improving. Most places, the silk-wrapped OFC Litz wire replacements are $20, but they're $15.95 at LPGear. Kevin has a point, that the Technics headshell is only 7.5g, and you would be hard-pressed to find one as light and rigid on the aftermarket w/o spending a lot more money. OTOH, the 12g Sumiko (or LPGear ZuPreme) headshell increases the arm's overall effective mass to 16.5g, which provides a better match for many cartridges with a compliance in the range of 10-15. The Sumiko/Zupreme comes standard with those $20 cartridge leads, and provides azimuth adjustment as well. So if nothing else, the heavier headshell increases the range of cartridges that run well on the Technics. |
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06-26-08: TvadYeah. I got tired of equivocating over whether to get Mapleshade Heavyfeet or Isonoe footers, so I ended up spending that amount of money on a Cambridge 640p phono stage instead. Turned out to be a good choice. :) |
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Radio, If you wish I do have a full set of the custom made "Vibrapods" but they are actually sorbothane boots made to fit directly on the technics feet perfectly from KAB U.S.A.. they are about 60 bucks a set, They are sitting in a box, I can do like 43 bucks for the set of 4 if you wish to have them.. I would still however probably SPIKE the Butcher block itself to the shelf it sits and then use the Iso feet under the technics feet on the table.. They fit snug over the old ones. Send me an email if interested, I will absorb the paypal fees and ship via Fed ex ground if you want for that price. Heres a link http://www.kabusa.com/frameset.htm?/ |
