When are all you digit-heads going to stop chasing analog sound from digital and just buy a turntable??
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David, you know I sypmathize, but calm down. You won't win anybody over to the good side of the Force by sniping. Read what you wrote: "vinyl-vs-analog"? You meant "digital-vs-analog", didn't you? Anyway, everybody just calm down, and listen to the stereo for a while, instead of typing in cyperspace...any 3 year old kid can do that, afterall...
Jm is right David. Why don't you drop the snotty, superior attitude? Usually I find your posts intelligent and interesting-- what happened? He asked a legitimate question about a DIGITAL music concern. Good digital sounds different than good analog but not worse IMHO. If you choose vinyl as a music source I've got no problem with that, but why should you have a problem with those that choose something else? In this hobby we all have problems from time to time-- you should know that. BTW it would be interesting to read what you came up with if you wrote all night long on "vinyl vs analog" (your words). Cheers. Craig
Garfish- vinyl vs analog obviously was an error.Will you start correcting others as well?? Anyway the man asked for comments on his problem.He invited responses.I gave mine and stand by it.This guy has a SACD player!! What you have all been waiting for.He is not happy.Everyone knows digital has alwys strived to sound like analog.Well do I really have to explain again?? Your statement that"good digital sounds different than good analog,but not worse"really makes no sense.and if it sounds different, then case closed.
Well,so far I have been able to find any recording on vinyl I have looked for.E-Bay alone has over 70 thousand L.P.'s to bid on,many still sealed.I pay usually under a dollar for most L.P.s I buy that demolish the $16.00 CD versions.Sometimes I splurge and spend $8-$10 on a still sealed L.P. The truth is there are way more records avaliable then you are aware of.
I have not heard SACD in my own system, and if it is really vastly superior to regular CD, that would be WONDERFUL! The remaining problem is for those of us that are over 20 years old. The library of CD music has taken over 25 years to be the wonderful selection that it is today. Even if SACD is twice as popular (and I doubt the general public, non audiophiles care) it could be 10 or 15 more years to get a great selection of software to feed your system. The point here is that we need music to listen to right now! Life is short, and I for one do not want to wait forever for a miracle that is always just beyond reach. If I were a digital guy, I would get my CD's where they sounded the best I could get, and listen to the vast library that is available in that format. And, as I HAVE done, avail myself of some of the millions of LP's that are available in the traditional analog format in a sound that is simply amazing, provided you are willing to invest the time and money to get it right.
Jamazur. I don't have vinyl so I won't comment on how the two compares. I did previously own the CAL CL-15 and upgraded to the SCD-777ES. I think the SACD output blows away the CL-15 std cd output. You must break the player in for 400 hours. Buy the Purist Audio Breakin CD II. Things I added to upgrade my system which had a positive effect on the SCD-777ES were : PSAudio P300, Black Mamba powercord, Rosinante DarkMatter Shelf (owned before and used on CL-15 also). I have heard that the balanced output were a joke on SCD-1 so I would recommend trying a RCA interconnect. The Cable Co. is recommending Symposium Roller Blocks instead of Shelf. I also added the ByBee internal mod for the P300 (worth every penny, $200). I use a passive preamp into the Bel Canto Evo 200.2 and Nirvana S-X ic. This combination with my speakers results in the most transparent, grain free and real sounding music.
2 weeks is entirely too short to fairly evaluate the SCD-1. Assuming you bought new, you're just too impatient. The SCD-1 takes over 300 HOURS to break-in. Sorry, that's just the way it is. I speak from experience as I've owned the SCD-1 since February. Just give it some time, it'll open up. VERY nicely. Two other hints: the SCD-1, like every piece of digital gear I've ever owned, definitely responds favorably to a respectable power cord. I use the ESP Essence to good effect. Also, Sony blew it with the balanced outputs, they used a pair of cheap $2 op-amps as phase splitters. If you've been listening using the balanced outputs, try listening to the single-ended outputs instead. I think you'll be shocked.
I couldn't agree more with all the positive feedback here. I have a what I think a very good setup of analog as well as the SACD medium. (I symphatize with all the vinyl junkies here on this thread who could tolerate with all the the surface noise LP has to offer). I think after the SACD has been given the proper burn-in time,it soundwonderful with no ear fatigue. Now I couldn't go back to listening to regular cd's. Don't get me wrong, I still listen to LP records worth listening to but I wouldn't trade my SACD to an analog record player. Listen to Sam McClain's SACD recording and you will know what I mean.
I jumped on the wagon and bought a Sony 777ES SACD and got it for 2000 from a dealer who didn't want to get stuck with it. I bought a few CD's and played it waiting for something to really inspire or excite me. It didn't in fact my Electrocompaniet player and my turntable were more pleasing to my ears. The SACD just brightened everything and became boring early . I unloaded it for 2700 while it was still a hot item. Maybe I will revisit it when more players and manufacturers get involved. The reviewers who gave it great just wanted to again see what they can create among us philes and as usual we fall for it. Happy listening.
David......Diana Krall and Natalie Cole sound different from each other, but one is not "better or worse" than the other-- personally I like them both-- as I do good vinyl and good digital music. Whether either of us likes it or not, in the early 80s there was a "war" between analog and digital music formats and analog lost badly. "to the victor goes the spoils". Vinyl will continue to hang on by its fingernails for years because of its perceived superior sound quality by a few afficionados such as yourself and my friend (and I'm glad it will be around). My friend has a $15K analog front end, and also an excellent CD system. I've asked him which he listens to most, and he said he preferred vinyl, but listened to CDs 90% of the time because of their quick and easy use and music availability. I responded to your "vinyl vs analog" error with sarcasm-- sorry. AudiogoN can be an enjoyable chat room so I propose a truce-- there's room for both of us. Cheers. Craig
Garfish,the "war"you refer to between analog vs digital in the early 80's was TOTALLY irrevelant to which sounded better.The mass public couldn't care less and were just waiting for something more convienent to stick in their $300.00 Sony "stereos" and boom boxes.If your friend prefers the sound of analog but listens to CD's 90 % of the time because they are 'quick and easy"then he couldn't care less either. Me? I care!!!
Craig, it doesn't cost any more to have a great vinyl front end, versus a CD one. Just get what I've got. Also, there is no point in arguing over this, because we're all a stubborn lot.......................David, just telling someone how great vinyl is can be meaningless, if they aren't receptive to it. If someone starts a thread about SACD, they definitely don't want to hear about vinyl, because SACD represents the "newest toy" they can buy. They don't care that there are only a handful of titles, and that the entire software catalog is owned/licensed by Sony. They don't care that the ENTIRE OUTPUT STAGE USES CHEAP OP AMPS (and NOT just the ones used to derive the fake "balanced" outputs, either). They only care about what's NEW. They're exactly the kind of customer a dealer likes to see come in the door....................."Excuse me, hello, I'd like to buy whatever is the "latest and greatest" technology in existence, and would like it RIGHT NOW. Please don't make me wait another minute"...................And when the general public decides they aren't interested in SACD in a year or two (as they are now), Sony will still be trickling out titles from their catalog...the way they're still refusing to admit that MD is not a viable format. The point is, if you love Sony products, nobody will ever be able to convince you that buying an SCD-1 isn't better than dying and going to Heaven...whatever the "realities" are...............And I've said it before, I'll say it again, if you think the SCD-1 is better at playing CD's than any old "CD player", bring yours by my system sometime. I'm open minded, and I hope you are.
Hi Carl; Again we were posting at the same time. I appreciate your stepping in as "mediator". I certainly have nothing against vinyl, but I've chosen digital-- and as of now it's sounding pretty darn good (I just got an ML transport and DAC-- used of course). I surely do agree with you about SACD, and in fact I recently read in some hi-end mag. (don't remember where) that Sony considers the format a "flop". Cheers. Craig
I am sorry for [email protected] if he thinks surface noise is a problem for those of us that listen to vinyl. He must have experience with a low to mid fi quality source to make that comment. My Walker and IO combination is as quiet as my Sony 7700 and the players before it.
Ok, I was hoping to get some insight into this "new" technology from audio enthusiasts who have actually listened to the product. Instead I'm getting the same old analogue vs. digital argument. I have nothing against lps, in fact I have heard some great set-ups that far surpass my digital front-end. From a convenience standpoint, CD and its newer incarnations are the way to go - no scratches, no flipping, no handling with gloves - and CD's are smaller too. Kinda why laserdisc never really took off yet DVD has. Now all that aside, I guess there can be a stubborness not to accept anything "new", especially after you've spent a considerable amount of time and $$$ on you current set-up. But David99, please don't comment on that which you have not heard and be so closed minded that you won't give it a chance - it simply doesn't add value to the original thread. I get a vision of some parent from the 60's saying sarcasticaly how Rock-n-Roll isn't MUSIC just noise and that there hasn't been a REAL musician since Sinatra! So, go out an listen to it you might be surprised. I haven't hear it but would love to read some more comments from people who HAVE!
Carl; Yeah I use a SF Line 2-- very neutral but with body. I like the additive effect of tubes. The high-end IS expensive. My overall strategy has been to get the best possible digital playback I can afford. (I think I'm there). The ML 360S DAC (especially) provided a really nice improvement in music quality/character. It's as if Diana Krall, Margo Timmins, and Natalie Cole are actually in my room. You've spoken so highly about the CD-50 that I really would lke to hear it, but as you can see, I'm pretty well committed to the system I have. Thanks for asking. Craig
Garfish,I have a job too!!(darn) But I love music enough to find time to get all I can out of it and find it fun also.I have mentioned else where that anyone can go around the corner and buy a CD / SACD player.Go buy a CD put it in and push a button.VERY EASY AND CONVENIENT,but it takes talent and time to get the best music has to offer.the man who started this post said he is not happy with the latest digital format.He asked for suggestions.I said if you want analog sound just like every true audiophile then go with a true analog format.I gave my suggestion,OK? Hey Carl! Where the HELL ya been while I've been being beat up here?? I'm getting impatient on news of your new toy!!!
I posted earlier on 7-05, that I hoped SACD would be wonderful, and I really meant it. I did not post comments revealing that I have in fact heard the format, although not in my own system. The CES in Vegas had at least two rooms with SACD, because I listened in both. One room was hosted by invitation with a joint venture between Phillips and Sony. They had, in addition to SACD, some master digital tapes in 2" format, and a lot of pro gear. I was not impressed, and neither was the reviewer from Absolute Sound that was listening room to room with me. This does not solve the question if SACD is good or not. I will not say that such a test is absolutely valid, as CES show conditions are poor. I will say that the set up Sony did is probably every bit as good as many high end audio dealers provide for their customers. From that standpoint, it is not off to a great start. I personally wish it would beat vinyl and that there were already a hundred thousand titles in print. However wishing and reality are two different things. The earlier posting about Betamax is scary, as that was a absolutely superior format to VHS, and Sony was the company behind Betamax too. If Sony does not resolve the issues of availability and cost of SACD software, this will wind up an expensive failure. The last project between Phillips and Sony, you may not remember. It was the DAC no, not digital audio converter, but digital audio cassette. It came to CES with a big bang, promised a library larger than CD and standard cassette, and everyone was pumped about it. They managed to sell a few, then it just went away. I was neither for or against it's success, I simply waited to see what was going to happen before I invested in it. I think SACD has a much better chance, as the format has much more appeal than digital cassette. Unfortunately, only time will tell.
Sorry,I missed one.Tryhoss? why do you assume I havent heard a SACD set up?? Well as a matter of fact I have a close friend that has the very same one this man is disappointed with.My opinion of the SCD-1 is it sounds like a mid priced CD player.My friend thinks its awesome but always wants to come to my house for some vinyl.He thinks my system sounds awesome also but spends more time in front of mine than his.He has never said mine sounds better but actions speak louder than words.Besides read the other posts.For the most part SACD is just another marketing ploy.And please dont ask me not to respond to questons on this site if I havent heard a product.You said your self you havent heard it,so why are YOU here??
David 99, I made it clear I was here to get insight from people who have heard it. I did not, until your most recent post, read where you HAD heard the thing. As for the other posts about this being a marketing ploy...an opinion. One I just don't happen to share. If the status quo were "good enough" we probably wouldn't be here on this site. I'm by no means a SONY fan (as a matter of fact I think their stuff is overpriced and of questionable quality) but I will give them credit for trying to lead and innovate here. Anyway, if you're happy with what you've got, that's what its all about! HAve a good one!
Sorry Albertporter I can't afford the stuff you buy. I only have a basis 2500 fitted with graham 1.5 and benz ruby 2. So maybe you are right its the system and not the lp itself that is the source of the surface noise. Maybe I will upgrade them when my 2 kids stop going to college. Any recommendation Albert what I should audition that will give me 100% guaranteed satisfaction? It will greatly appreciated. Then maybe that will help me stop from this continuous vicious cycle of seeking the holy grail of musicality. For now let us enjoy whatever medium gives us satisfaction at home because nothing out there regardless of price, analog or digital, comes close to the actual performances. I have listen to top of the line Basis debut on a Martin logan Statement and it stll comes short. I am not saying I am not happy with it but at the same time I am also gratified listening to digital on the same setup. Have a nice day gentlemen. Enjoy your music. Let me know when the chicken and egg issue gets resolve.
I can't speak for the others but David99, I am not chasing analog sound by buying digital sources. If I am, then you are exactly correct, I will just keep listening to my analog setup. But I am seeking the best recreation of music at home and the enjoyment I get when I go listen to the Boston Symphony Orchestra. I think that is what music is all about.
i've heard SACD, audio DVD, CD (44.1) and the best analouge frontends out there. best thing i've ever heard is 1 inch, 2-track master tape through a hot-rodded Studer-Revox (tube) reel-to-reel @ 30 ips. but how practical is that? ever tried to find master tapes? i have roughly 5,000 lps and 1400 CD's. i still collect lps but, contrary to the experience of david99 (BTW, you ought to get a spellchecker and maybe buy a used version of Strunk & White), find that new lps, if they are available at all, cost as much or more than new CD's on sale (as they always are somewhere). fact is, if you want to listen to almost anything new, you're confined to digital sources. live with it! it ain't gonna change, no matter that there are a handful of us still around with the means and desire to buy $20k+ tt/arm/cartridge combos. and, unless you play your records at something approaching a whisper, you're gonna get noise, no matter that you have, as do i, the best-of-the-best equipment and software. my experience is this: the Accuphase SACD transport played through an Accuphase DC 330 all-digital preamp is vastly superior to any of the Sony's; problem is the former is likely to cost at least 4x's more than the Sony under discussion (at this point, i don't have a qoute on the SACD transport but the digital pre with all the option boards you'll want will run you $18-21k). notwithstanding this observation, the SACD format, with 1st-rate electronics and speakers, is clearly superior to CD, 24/96 audio DVD and CD(44.1). since there are only about 100 SACD's in the present worldwide catalogue, i've not been able to a/b them with lp's. i suspect, tho, that the SACD may, in fact, surpass all but the best-of-the-best lp sources/frontends. all that said, you guys are all focusing on the wrong problem here. SACD, and perhaps CD, may already be doomed formats (i hate it, too, but vinyl is already on life support). MP3 and Napster have changed the face of audio already and, IMHO, may wipe out the whole highend, as we know it, in the next 2-3 years. SACD will not be supported by the oligarchy that controls it unless those few of us on the outer reaches of the audio market embrace it as a format an order of magnitude better than any alternative. absent that, expect to be yolked with compressed, narrow-band dreck that you won't need anything better than Radioshack offers to appreciate fully. but, borrowing (no, stealing) from dennis miller: that's just my opinion; i could be wrong.
I am amazed at how far off track this tread has gone. The original post ask for comments regarding "EXPERIENCE" with a specific piece of gear and it seems to have turned into a debate. I can remember when my 8-track provided me with music. Certainly not the best but I Love music and will enjoy it however I can. Even my first transitor radio provided me many hours of enjoyment. I guess my point is, it's primarily about the enjoyment of music. Not the gear or format.
Jmazur: The breakin is required for both SACD and CD outputs. I received the Bel Canto EVo late May after issues with the design were resolved. This amp replaced a $7K McCormack DNA2 LAE. For $2400 you can't go wrong. It extremely musical, resolving, and neutral sound. Its definetely on par with LAE but I couldn't directly A/B them. You will see a review in Stereotimes soon. As for SACD, buy the DMP SACD disks (Just Jomin, Quality of Silence, Tricycle and Alto). I find SACD to have better resolution, 3D imaging/soundstage depth/width and less fatiquing than CD. I also forgot to mention you need to use the Marigo Mat. Did you try the RCA ic yet? Drubin: The bybee mod on the p300 replaces a cheap surge filter (mine did't have one) to "quantum charge the flowing electrons" prior to regenerating AC. Call Audionut for more info, its easy to install. It reduced system noise further revealing even more detail and body.
In response to [email protected], there is nothing wrong with your analog. The set up you have is nearly what I had one year ago. At that time I had a Basis Mk5 and Graham with Ruby 2. If you are not satisfied with that set up because of noise, then you need someone else to adjust it for you. As far as suggesting what will give you 100% satisfaction, no person can possibly guarantee that. I will say that if you dislike the analog system you currently have, upgrading will not change your mind. Yes, there is much better analog systems, but as you say, it will never be the Boston Symphony. Neither will SACD, again the topic of this discussion, which concerned an Audiogon poster's dissatisfaction with a new format. And to Goose 89, you are correct, the point should be about enjoying music. In fact I had a topic that was about favorite music. The topic here is the ugly topic of trying to come to grips with the formats that are provided to us audiophiles, regardless of what we want. I am speaking from experience regarding all the formats being discussed here. The problem with all of us music junkies is we are all hoping to get closer to live music. The whole purpose of recorded music is to allow us to listen to people who are not available to perform for us, some of which are already deceased! The argument over format is a natural one, as we spend more money on the software than the hardware (in the long run) and really, it makes about as much difference as any of the pieces of hardware.
I haven’t had the chance to hear the SACD, but I have HAD a HDCD Madrigal Proceed CDD/DAP. The thing sounded great (I thought until I had the chance to audition a REAL analog set up) I was so impressed with the sheer silence of the background and sound floor that I had to bring in my player and hook it up for my test. Not only did the turntable stomp the chit out of my $6000 set up, but it opened my eyes to how quiet and real a properly set up, cleaned and cared for vinyl playing system can be. I subsequently sold the high dollar digital and bought a modest player and a good turntable. I cannot remember the last CD I bought. I am having too much fun buying and listening to music on vinyl and dropping my jaw in comparison. People I must say that CDs are great for convenience and size. You can’t listen to your top albums in the car, or carry a turntable Walkman, and such but for the pain in the ass purist sound, analog is unbeatable. Analog to 1s and 0s then read back to analog is a process where something is lost period. As for laser disks as mentioned earlier, they were big, but they were not digital, as I learned they are FM. and are not 5.1 or DTS sound compatible, DVD is. Digital has convenience related advantages, but its ALL ABOUT THE SOUND. If SACD can reproduce the magic of vinyl to the ears of a digital convert, then I say alleluia!!! But it has to have the cost advantages, the availability of vinyl records. Until then, hear the music. Peace, Soundnught.
It's reassuring that a conversation regarding formats has turned to the subject of music. I'm into the odd and unusual in music: musique concrete, european free improv, uncategorizble experimentation ( bernard gunter, francisco lopez, ralf wehowsky), field recordings, and miscellaneous world music. The trickle-down of digital means that I don't have to listen to hissy cassettes. Some sound experimenter in Japan with a few grand in equipment can put out an edition of 500, vg to exc quality cds that would never get a big label release. Some of the sound collage stuff has so many layers that it would get lost in a storm of hiss if done in analog unless it was done in a kilobuck studio. Gunter's and Lopez's stuff has parts that are so quiet that they'd descend below the noise floor if done in vinyl. Don't get me wrong - I listen to more vinyl than cds - I'm just saying that digital has serious benefits for certain types of music (how about those 75 minute long Indian ragas?). It is more or less accepted now that digital's infancy was pretty nasty but, one way or another, it's going to keep improving and getting cheaper, making it more likely that any creative musical type will be able to get their stuff out there, and in a form that will be eminently listenable if not equivalent to live. Patience will pay off, but in the meantime, revel in the humungous polymorphism of non-mainstream music! (To see what I'm talking about check out www.anomalousrecords.com)
Anyway, the issue was how overpriced the SCD-1 is for the performance it offers. I think there'll be amazing all in one players on the market in the next year or so (assuming SACD doesn't die, which it may very well), and Jmazur just needs to be patient. He could also get into vinyl, if he opened his mind wide enough. You definitely do not need a mega thousand dollar table to get tremendous satisfaction from records. There are just too many out there to ignore, and the reissues are like seeing God.
Carl, re: analog Been there, done that. To all, re: Character assassination and judgement-being from a racing background, I like to try new cutting edge things. Some cars go fast, sometimes you DNF. You pick your path. Why does there have to be allienation inferred just 'cause someone is digital or vinyl. Hang tight-we're all in it for the music!
In response to [email protected], I don't think Carl was assassinating your character (if that is what you meant). It looked like an attempt to guide you in a different direction. You opened this post with what looked like a legitimate complaint, and most of the comments are either trying to figure out why you are disappointed, or suggesting other options. You stumbled onto a hot subject, because all of us are looking for better, and SACD would be heaven sent if it worked. You, at this point seem to think it does not. I cannot say I disagree, but I have not had the experience with it you have. I guess only time will tell. I wish you and everyone at Audiogon, only the best in your pursuit of getting your music the best it can be.
Albert, I completely agree. Jmazur, you took offense where you shouldn't have, and no one believes what I said was "character assassination"...puuleeease! Take a chill pill, and think of another phrase to say besides "been there, done that". It was outdated two years ago. I DO apologize for not being able to help you! Not everyone has the patience for vinyl, I realize that. All I meant was, if you are going to be unhappy with every front end you try, you might ought to slow down and wait until some source component comes along that you can live with long term. Until then, try living with an inexpensive digital source for a while, and try to get the most out of it. Getting the most out of a component is the real challenge, afterall. I hear the Rega Planet CD player is very popular. Why not get one, and try to make it really sing? The point is, you need to take a look at what you're doing, and see if there are other approaches you haven't tried yet.
Yes,the Rega Planet is a fine sounding CD player.If I ever decide to upgrade my $20.00 NEC yard sale player it will be a planet.But until I have at least 20 Cd's I wont bother.Right now I have 2 CD's I have purchaced in 3 years so it will be a while.The Rega Planet is Stereophile Class B.The reviewer described it as sounding "almost analog like" I guess with digital this must be a high compliment because I hardly ever see a CD player described as that.
I am finally figuring out why people devoted to digital get so defensive.You want the best of both worlds but dont want to put any work into it.You want a "easy and convienient" format but think you can get analog sound with all these different digital machines coming out. When you find out your dreams have not come true(again)then you have someone like me say if you want analog sound you need to get a turntable and put some REAL effort into it.And it is alot of work,no doubt.But no need to get ticked off.One guy for lack of better argument attacked my speling!!!! CHIL!!!!
David99, I like you, and your enthusiasm for the format that I enjoy the most. However, [email protected], is looking for new technology and is hoping that his disappointment can be solved with a suggestion. Who can blame him for wanting the sound of LP with the convenience of a CD? Personally, I would KILL for such a format. There are plenty of people who feel like me, but they have not given up on the possibility of a new technology resolving this issue. In truth, a company as large as Sony has that ability. If only their heart was as big as their pocketbook, we would have the success story that we all (at this site) dream of.