Is powerfull Amps only for low sensitivity speakes?


Dear Friends,
The general amp advice for the speakers 92+ db sensitivity speakers are mostly low power amps and mainly set or pp tube devices. I wonder if you have any experience with a setup of high sensitivity speaker with 100+ watt amplifier. 
My speaker is va sarastro 2 and at the moment driving it with accuphase a60 power amp. I've an opportunuty to buy Arc Gs150 amp with a good deal.
thanks for your comments
128x128obatu

Showing 6 responses by atmasphere

May I ask your comments also for the difference between single ended triode amps and push pull tube amps in terms of 2nd and 3rd harmonics capabilities.
Its not as simple as that might sound! SETs tend to make more of the 2nd harmonic than any other, with each successive harmonic at a much lower level than the one preceding it. The 2nd harmonic is where the 'richness' of single-ended operation comes from.

If an amplifier is push-pull, the harmonic structure varies depending on how the push-pull is accomplished. For example, if a single-ended input is employed, the 2nd will be canceled in the load, but there will be some present on account of the input, and you will also see a 3rd and a fairly prominent 5th. Many people that prefer SETs often point to the distortion of traditional push-pull tube amps as most are built this way, as being why SETs sound better.

But that is not the full story.

If the push-pull amp is entirely differential and balanced from input to output, the 3rd harmonic will be the primary distortion component but at levels about the same as the 3rd is seen in an SET. So this is considerably lower distortion and such an amp will tend to sound less romantic and more neutral, but will retain much of the musical character of an SET.

So topology plays a pretty big role and you really have to know what that is about. The 2nd, 3rd and 4th (the lower ordered harmonics) are musical to the human ear. The 5th and above tend to contribute to brightness and harshness, for example we've known since the 1930s that the 7th contributes to a metallic quality. Our ears are particularly sensitive to the higher orders and use them to sense sound pressure. All forms of distortion are perceived as some form of tonality.

"These statements are not accurate. If the amp makes too much power and the speaker has no need for it, the amp will be operating in a lower power region. With most higher power amps, this means it will have increased distortion. You can see this in their specs. The increased distortion is audible as brightness in most cases and will result in less detail as the distortion will mask lower level signals."


Not True! I wont even start here. I will ask you to think about percentages and hwo the FTC requires amps to be measured.
Actually the statement was quite true and simply looking at the distortion specs of the amp in question will bear this out. The FTC really doesn't have much to say about it. They are more concerned with distortion at full output.
Not a good impedance curve for tubes, this speakers needs current. but because it’s a very nice 90db efficient an amp around 150w or more will do, but as I say one that can deliver current!
In practice this comment does not bear out. John Giolas of Wilson Audio had our MA-1 amplifiers driving MAXXs and his system got some very nice comments from Soundstage!; so despite the apparent numbers, Wilsons have been traditionally fairly easy for tubes.
So, my opinion, in general is: High powered solid state amps can be a benefit to High Sensitivity speakers.
The generalization is the problem. I often run amps of 150 watts or more on my speakers, which are 98 db. I certainly don't mind the power!

I've heard 500 watt amps on that speaker and they can't make detail. They also sound bright for some reason. I've explained why.

So I think you have to define some limits, within which what you say is perfectly true.
But a powerful solid state amplifier allows you to use mostly far better inefficient speakers and avoid the distortion and non-flat frequency response of many tube amplifiers. Anyway, we are not going to persuade each other.
@willemj Actually I agree that a solid state amp with a lot of power is helpful with low efficiency speakers. If you do your matching homework, you can arrive at a pretty good solution.

Regarding the comment about tube amps- if the amp employs enough feedback, and many do, they will be just as flat as a solid state amp on a given speaker. All it has to do is act like a voltage source and tube amps have been doing that since the 1950s.

But there is a bigger issue- there is a lot more to high quality audio reproduction than just flat frequency response! The first problem of course is that such is just plain impossible because no speaker is actually flat. The next problem is understanding how the ear perceives sound and in particular how it perceives distortion.

Its that latter bit that is often where solid state and tube people part ways.

Distortion is heard by the ear as tonality. This is why tubes are often thought to be colored- because of the 2nd harmonic, which causes 'warmth'. People that don't understand that the warmth is caused by distortion often think that tubes just can't be flat; but that is not the issue!

But solid state amps have coloration too- and in their case as well, its not due to frequency response error- its due to distortion. Thinking that the small amount of distortion that solid state amps have as 'negligible' is a mistake.

The ear uses higher ordered harmonics to sense sound pressure (again, a fact that has been known for decades) so 'negligible' amounts are easily heard.

The ability to sense sound pressure is easily the most important aspect of hearing perception. The implication is its a Bad Idea to increase the harmonics used by the ear, unless high fidelity is not the goal.



 
It is true that distortion goes up a little bit at lower levels, but it is still very low and below the noise level: 0.05% at 100 mW. Look at graph 16 in particular, for the output range of 480mW to 7.7 W rms. In that range it never gets above 0.015% and rapidly descends to 0.01%. There is no way you can hear this.
Sure you can- if you have high sensitivity loudspeakers!

What you are not taking into account is the nature of the distortion (mostly higher ordered harmonics) and the fact that the human ear uses the higher ordered harmonics to sense sound pressure. We are more sensitive to them than almost anything else! So they manifest in amounts this small as brightness. This is what has fueled the tubes/transistor debate for decades.
2. Is there any *disadvantage* to powerful amps with efficient or small speakers? No.

There is nothing about a powerful amp that is inherently a compromise of sound for power
These statements are not accurate. If the amp makes too much power and the speaker has no need for it, the amp will be operating in a lower power region. With most higher power amps, this means it will have increased distortion. You can see this in their specs. The increased distortion is audible as brightness in most cases and will result in less detail as the distortion will mask lower level signals.

@obatu Your speakers are only 92db; that is a moderate sensitivity- high sensitivity would be more like 98 or 99 db at a minimum. An amplifier of the power you mention will be no worries.