Is New Vinyl Exempt from Loudness Wars?

Mapman - what follows is a copy and paste of some of the research I did and posted on my system thread on Loudness Wars. you might recall seeing it?
Due to the unfinished state of virtual systems I am not able to link it, so I copy part of it here as I feel it is relevant to your thread.

I spoke with Maegan Ritchat of Lacquer Channel a couple of times last year about this to get some answers about Loudness Wars and the real differences I hear between Vinyl and Cd.

http://lacquerchannel.com/the-engineers/maeghan-Ritchat/

Lacquer Channel is one of the largest mastering studios in Canada.

translated from my conversation with Maegan.

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When the vinyl is cut from a digital master the engineer must TONE THIS DIGITAL MASTER LOUDNESS FACTOR DOWN. He/she has no choice on this because of actual physical limitations with the cut grooves on the record, and noise itself.

For example.

If the band is bass heavy like a rock or reggae band, the bass may need to be filtered at 40 hz, or put into mono below 40 hz. This prevents the grooves from being cut too wide (<------->) and even running into one another. One of the factors deciding this is how long the songs run on the vinyl side being cut. On the high frequency end depending on how SSSSShhhhh or how Tizzy the digital file sounds; if it was captured sounding a little harsh, a 16k filter can be used as one option with the vinyl. Just one reason vinyl may sound a little more rolled off, smoother, compared to its digital equivalent on some records.
     
The end result is a less fatiguing sound with vinyl, once this "loudness" has been toned down. Maegan said in her experiences to date with customers who have heard digital and vinyl from redbook CD level source files on resolving systems...customers generally prefer the vinyl.

So a couple reasons above why the sound differs between the vinyl and cd, even though the digital master might have been done at 44,1k Hz 16 bits the red book cd standard. Now if the Digital master file is higher than the CD standard 44,1khz. 16 bits
This leads to...

the second finding and Higher Rez files.

When Higher Rez Digital files are available like 96khz/24 bit or higher - it makes sense to use them and these are indeed usually used for the vinyl cut. So when you buy the vinyl you are probably getting the LP's made from the higher rez files if available. Maegan confirmed this. This however would need to be confirmed on a per LP basis with the mastering studio involved.  

The genre makes a difference from a general perspective. She agreed that Classical, Opera and Jazz for example are in general terms, better files to begin with, in that they are more dynamic than your typical rock, pop group digital masters which have more loudness factor and compression.

RR
Today we are not on those old times of the CD " terrible sounds ". Digital grow up and still does and the players are improving day by day where the analog experience was not so dynamics in that grow up as digital.

Mapman - Sounds right to me 

Are you sure Raul/Mapman. I think it depends on who is involved in doing the "audio job" from start to finish. And I give just one example from today.  

My wife brings home from shopping the Adele 25 cd. $12. She said they had stacks of the cd in the store - Costco.
She saw me watching the NY concert so she bought it.
I know Adele is really, really, popular at Audiogon - 8^0 - with two recent threads dedicated to her.
So in the subject of this thread I look deeper into this.  

The Dr database reveals.

http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=adele&album=

Adele 25   2015  ratings    05  -  04  -  08       lossless CD
Adele 25   2015                 11   - 09   - 12       lossless Vinyl
Adele 25 (96/24 LP Needle Drop) 2015
                                          11  -  09    -12       lossless Vinyl

Why is vinyl rated higher ?

Has anyone heard both the cd and vinyl versions ?

Curious.....

Geoffkait

re: Adele 25

I suspect the real question is, why are both formats so POOR? You know, on the Dynamic Range Database the lowest number for a rating of Good Dynamic Range is 14. The number 8-13 are transitional, and 1-7 represent BAD dynamic range.
So for the Adele releases listed above on the Database, both CD and vinyl, the numbers for Average, Lowest and Highest Dynamic Range are what should probably be described as abysmal.

That DR database has been around forever and it pops up in forum discussions here and there.  I do find it is pretty consistent but I have not let it guide my music buying. Its easy enough to look up on your phone when buying new or used music. Some findings.  

I played 3 new for me cd's including Adele 25.
Diana Krall - Stepping Out '93, Adele 25, Bizet Carmen - Classical Gold '94

Diana Krall Stepping out from 1993 cd first.  Set the preamp gain and volume levels.  Enjoyable listen. Then I put the Adele 25 cd in. Holy moly.

I stopped the cd bring out the Diana Krall Cd again, and start taking spl measurements - curious.  The SPL Meter was set to 90 db as the midpoint for Krall's album. Peaking at the meter sitting next to me it went from low 80's - 95 db.  With Adele 25 - no change in preamp settings, the SPL meter needed to be set at the next notch - 100 db midpoint (so as not to break the needle). The Adele 25 album in my room A went from 90 - 100+ db at my listening position about 13 feet from speakers.   The space is easily pressurized by the speakers/amp. The 3rd Bizet cd - again enjoyable levels like the Krall CD.  

Diana Krall Stepping Out - The Early Recordings (original CD) 1993
13 12 15 lossless Unknown - All Green

http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=diana+krall&album=

Bizet Carmen Classical Gold 1994 London Festival Orchestra - can't find this Cd on the database but it's a good recording. The Bizet's shown in the database high green marks.

http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=Georges%20Bizet

Now here's the thing. Most long term audio music friends I know - have 2 if not more system kits set up in their house.  With my two system kit setups

In the room that plays full range and is easily pressurized I found the CD way overblown with huge bass extensions. And I say this as a music lover.
But I am pretty sure from past music, since I haven't done it yet, in my example, if Adele 25 gets played in room B on the Quad 57 system with no sub/s and their 45hz limits - It will sound much more listenable.  But the more important thing here to me - the music, and its message.  I can see females blaring this out in their car with windows down. If they are I would steer clear of them. hold on - ok... put my teflon suit on.  

GK - so getting back to your question.  Why are both formats so POOR ? and this thread's topic

In this example the DR ratings show the vinyl album with slightly better transitional ratings versus the cd's poor ratings. Is vinyl enough to save this one ? Let someone come on hear and tell us since I haven't heard the vinyl. 

I do think if engineers think the music is going to played mostly in a car or mobile, they will turn up the bass. If they think its staying indoors on a turntable, they do what they can to make it better. In this case maybe just putting lipstick on a Pig ?  They (engineers) know what they are doing. This is about making money. Look to the target audience.  
  
Happy (DR) Listening.

Here is one I find really interesting. Natalie Merchant. Tigerlily

http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=natalie+merchant&album=tigerlily+

Note the values for CD, Vinyl, HD Tracks, 2 lp 45 rpm vinyl (vinyl entry 2nd from bottom)

Lp2cd

Unique and phenomenal music, but also a remarkable and brilliant use of the best capabilities of digital studio production. Needless to say, it is not needlessly compressed. But for much the same reason, it’s not available on LP, as I doubt that its sound would translate well to that medium.

Lp2cd - can you tell us why this is with the Horseflies album. Why the sound would not translate well ? 

Lp2cd - thanks for that information.
Never knew that album existed, will listen to the sample tracks to see if I like the music.

Looking to learn, if I can ask you when you say.

That is not to say it couldn’t be produced to LP, but it would undoubtedly require significant compromises in dynamic range and bass response, which, knowing them, they would likely be reluctant to do.

I discussed in the first post here how my talks with that engineer, discussed how with digital files going to vinyl, depending on the loudness factor, quality of the files; the bass may need to filtered or mono’ed at certain Hz, along with a filter at the High frequencies - 16k hz for example. It sounds to me that the album you reference was originally recorded very carefully so that there is little of this loudness problem and of good quality?
Fair statement ?
So when you say significant compromises with the vinyl, are you referring to the physical media itself involved, and maybe that few people remain, that have the skill to do the cutting properly ? And the plants the discs go to - using old equipment and crude techniques. We have all seen how they make records on youtube.

Is this what you were referring to? or something else...

Just one example of vinyl compromise.
My understanding when they cut a record they start with large circles and grooves on the outside and it becomes smaller and smaller as you get inside. In order to accommodate 20 minutes of music the inside circles are smaller in diameter. Harder to track with a pivot tonearm especially with antiskate. Now I have Lp records from artists whose team of people recognize this vinyl design problem, and have put a single album record on two discs; the music does not go much past the physical record’s mid travel point. This is just one example imo of trying to deal with the compromise of this crude piece of plastic.

This part has me curious.
If I can make one more reference to the Natalie Merchant Tigerlily album and what I found surprising. Btw just an album I picked out and looked up. Am a huge fan of hers and her music gets a lot of play in my rooms.

It’s a mid 90’s album 1995 and they stopped using the SPAR coding on cd’s by then. Is the music CD - DDD or ADD ? Some info from the album insert.

Recorded Bearsville Studios Dec 1994 - March 1995
Additional recording The Club House, Germantown NY
Mixed RPM studios, NY,
Additional Mixing Sony Studios, NY
Mastered Bob Ludwig, Gateway Mastering Studios, Portland ME.

The interesting part for me going back to that DR database album link. btw - I am not associated with it and imo the information it provides is just that - information.
if one clicks on this link

http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=natalie+merchant&album=tigerlily+

According to this DR database the Vinyl versions of this album have the highest dynamic range over the CD and HD tracks. Why is this ?

Lp2cd do you have an opinion on this based on your experiences ?
Are we looking at a limitation of the gear being used to generate the data from the database itself ?

Anyone else have an opinion on this?

Curious.

And when the CD mastering engineer gets a hold of it, at the very least it will get normalized (which is actually a good thing), but will likely also get compressed and may see some EQ. It has to work in a car! So this is why you see the LP showing greater dynamic range.

But the ratings in the database for vinyl are higher than the HD tracks too, according to the DR database.  And according to this HD Tracks link.  

http://www.hdtracks.com/tigerlily

There are 96/24 files available.
Btw - I don't know of anyone that plays HD tracks in their car. :^)

Re: unofficial DR database. I would like Whart’s opinion on these Led Zeppelin ratings if he sees this post.

Geoffkait do you listen to Led Zeppelin through your Sony Walkman or through a regular stereo ? I have a problem with Led Zep. If I do put it on the Spl’s usually end up going high and I get in trouble. The new recent vinyl from Germany is very good & quiet.

on a sidenote.
I feel I have done my duty and listened to Adele 25 - 3 times now (cd).
I am now ready to start a movement for women against their bad boyfriends.

Someone mentioned Amy Winehouse earlier.

********************************
Amy Winehouse Back to Black (HD Tracks 96/24) 2015
07 05 08 lossless Download

Amy Winehouse Back To Black (The Deluxe Album: The Classic Album + Bonus Disc) 2007
06 04 09 lossless CD

Amy Winehouse Back To Black [171 421 1 EU CD] 2006
06 05 07 lossless Unknown

Amy Winehouse Back to Black [UK & Europe vinyl] 2007
11 10 14 lossless Unknown

Amy Winehouse Back to Black (US vinyl) 2006
10 09 12 lossless Unknown

The only decent ratings come again with vinyl (last 2) and it is in my opinion not great. I have the 2006 vinyl album. You will need VTA on the fly and a tonearm that doesn’t change its alignment settings when you do use VTA with this one.

********************************

Kate Bush 50 Words for Snow - this is a phenomenal vinyl album.

http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=kate+bush&album=50+words+

The ratings only show HD files and they all rate good. The vinyl must use these files ?

*********************************

It appears from limited surfing of the DR database that most vinyl rates better than bad digital. And with good digital, vinyl is still right up there.

??????

If there is anyone reading that does not think a regular cd can put you at the performance in your own space.

Get

Holly Cole - Girl Talk - cd

http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=holly+cole&album=girl+talk+

Why does the HD tracks have the crappiest rating with the Holly Cole album ?

Must be really hard for the engineers who know how good digital can be ......to add all this loudness in due to the artists/market wishes.

So Is New Vinyl Exempt from Loudness Wars?
over 50 posts ? oops long post sorry.

Lets think about how the vinyl is made. This is an interesting very easy to read article.

http://www.resoundsound.com/mixing-for-vinyl-dont-fall-for-these-traps/

from there.

while the cutting lathes are truly magnificent machines and properly maintained stand the test of time beautifully… The format itself was not made to reproduce the kind of loud and often distorted music we have today.

Vinyl is an analogue format and sounds great. But with that come some physical limitations. Digital formats like CD and MP3 can reproduce anything where as vinyl is more unforgiving.

What Physical Vinyl Limitations ?

Well the very nature of the cutting act itself by the person and the machine (cutter). The person doing the vinyl master cut needs to be careful when cutting vinyl. Extreme signals can damage the equipment and also put grooves in the vinyl that are too big, which will prevent 20 mins of music a side. Go over 20 mins results in smaller grooves which leads to distortion and other problems like tracking.

Due to this inherent fragile nature of the analog equipment, and these physical limitations of the vinyl disc itself; this IMO just lends itself to making sure more care is taken. The end result can be a better listening product in a "well setup" vinyl rig, when compared with popular music on CD that contains loudness. And the DR ratings do seem to support this too.

But vinyl is a mechanical, resonance vibration setup GAME. There is a learning curve and it really all depends how well it is setup. Also if you look at the turntable setups they use to test records after cut they are IMO only finding out if the record tracks / plays. And this is ok, because the end customer setup and expectations are all different anyway.

Now with digital - IMO because of Digital’s greater potential, the engineers with some popular music are forced to make it loud, because 1) they can, and 2) because of demand by popular artists/markets. So the Digital medium even though it promises potential; the Digital process itself is a victim - in this case.

This phenomena is another example imo of how a lesser design (Vinyl) set up well; can trump a better design (Digital) when it is not done well. But when Digital is done well (recording/mastering) - it is very very good .....in my room anyway.

end of part A
**********************************
part B

now RIAA and I’d like to reference posts by Raul and Atmasphere.

Rauliruegas

Dear atmasphere: "" This is absolute nonsense. The RIAA curve has nothing to do with compression.. """"

of course is not the type of digital compression and maybe you are ok with that RIAA curve but if the LP medium is so good why that RIAA curve?, all we know why that kuind of compression in the bass range that you accept it does not means that that severe bass range equalization to lower those frequencies is a compression to me.

That RIAA curve eq. always degrades the original signal but the analog medium has no alternative due to the severe limitation of the LP medium.

So Raul mentions bass compression with the vinyl cutting, and I think that Atmasphere took issue with the word compression? I think Raul meant a word like "cut" or "reduce". I know that both Raul and Atmasphere know what is happening with RIAA.


First what is RIAA? for those reading who are not aware.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIAA_equalization#/media/File:RIAA-EQ-Curve.svg

RIAA stands for the Recording Industry Association of America, who set a standard in 1954 for the precise amount of bass cut and treble boost to be applied when records are made, and the converse boost/cut required when records are played back. There were numerous different standards of cut/boost before 1954, each requiring amplifiers with different playback characteristics to achieve accurate reproduction, but the RIAA specification became universally adopted and allowed all record manufacturers and amplifier manufacturers to work with a common standard. All modern records are cut to the RIAA standard.
So, a turntable requires a special amplifier to raise its output voltage to about a volt, and apply RIAA equalisation so the record sounds as it should. This device is known as a phono pre-amp or a phonostage amplifier.

from internet source..

So ...
When cutting the actual vinyl disc -
they do turn the bass down for smaller grooves , and turn high frequencies up - boost to eliminate noise.

Then when we play the actual vinyl disc back through our RIAA phono, bass and treble levels are equalized again. Bass boosted, treble attenuated. Really amazing if you think about it that the whole thing actually works.

********************************************
Opinion

So I think Yes to a degree in answer to the original post; and how much depends on how bad the original digital file is to begin with.

Just some observations - thx for starting the thread Mapman.

Here’s one for you btw from the DR database as I know you are a big fan of Springsteen 8^) ---


An artist that audiophiles like to take shots at for sound quality and rightfully so for some of the albums. Flat sound.

Springsteen - Darkness on the Edge of Town.

http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=springsteen+&album=darkness

Ratings only show digital. Note the ones that are 14 overall - Good. Japan ratings lowest. What’s with that ?

I listen to a 1978 LP. Monster album.

My understanding is that AudioGoneer SLAW has a very special pressing of it. If he owned a reel to reel I would offer a R2R tape for it.
This album helped me through some trying times.

Power of the message over the music ?

Lp2cd
Digital can be made to sound however you want it to, good, bad or old fashioned LP.

I don't doubt it. Its too bad for those hear (sic) on Audio-Gon(e), that the popular younger market guides how it sounds.

Cool product Izotape Vinyl

But I think its missing on the real reason that "some" people are addicted to vinyl.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/5a/db/1b/5adb1ba0951979115989f93d43a59fcc.jpg

and lets not forget another real tangible reason for "some"

Moldy smell scenting

... that can only from from finding that treasured 40 year old unused album at your local Good will.

But from what I can see the the real marketing issue with the Izotape vinyl product.....its free.

Everyone knows if you want to sell something, you need to attach a price to it or people will think its not worth buying.
And in this audio hobby - the higher price .........  


Adele 25 update. (for those following this adventure)

I gave the Adele 25 cd one more try...yeah I know ......stubborn.
So charged up the ESL's in room B. No luck same symptoms.
So I turned off the sub and tried it again. Now she appeared to be really screaming at me during the chorus.
My wife was not impressed. I think all this activity triggered by Mapman's thread has now made me sick of Adele.
but all is not lost.....
A memorable moment when my daughter came home and I passed her the cd.
It slipped out of my hand, fell on the floor and the cd case fell apart into 3 pieces.
The Cd fell out. My daughter put the cd in her Apple computer - and guess what - it worked !
Try that with an LP and see what happens.
but the biggest revelation

.....it sounded pretty good.



Hello
by Leroy Sanchez

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlZ9kjCrGJw




Hello
by Lucky Chops


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mOMmP_aKso&feature=youtu.be

notice the lower octave during the chorus. works better for me.
maybe Adele can give it another go ? after she stops counting the money.

coffee done--have a nice day everyone.

Why the DR Dynamic Range numbers for vinyl are higher than CD.
One explanation. Taken from here.

http://wiki.hydrogenaud.io/index.php?title=Myths_(Vinyl)

Here are a couple parts. fwiw - I am finding this research less stressful, than trying to figure out why my financial investments are doing so poorly. Sort of therapeutic - temporarily...  

Effect of vinyl mastering on dynamic range

A related myth is that when vinyl has a higher dynamic range than CD, it means the audio was sourced from a different, more dynamic master, and that the difference in dynamics will be audible.
It is true that recordings on vinyl sometimes have a spikier waveform and a measurably higher dynamic range than their counterparts on CD, at least when the dynamic range is reported by crude "DR meter" tools that compare peak and RMS levels. The higher "DR value" could indeed be a result of entirely different master recordings being provided to the mastering engineers for each format, or different choices made by the engineers, as happens every time old music is remastered for a new release. But even when the same source master is used, the audio is normally further processed when mastering for the target format (be it CD or vinyl), and this often results in vinyl having a spikier waveform and higher DR measurement.

^^^^^
I asked about the software/tools used to determine the ratings in that DR database earlier. The above states "reported by crude "DR meter" tools that compare peak and RMS levels. Interesting... 

************************************

There are two types of processing during vinyl mastering that can increase the DR measurements and waveform spikiness, thus reducing the RMS and increasing the basic DR measurement by perhaps several dB:

The audio is subjected to low-pass or all-pass filtering, which can result in broad peaks becoming slanted ramps. The amount and stereo separation of deep bass content is reduced for vinyl, to keep the stylus from being thrown out of the groove. It is quite possible that these changes are entirely inaudible, despite their effect on the waveform shape and DR measurement.

The dynamic range of the waveform is also affected by the vinyl playback system; different systems provide different frequency responses. Factors include cartridge, tonearm, preamp, and even the connecting cables. A vinyl rip with weak bass may well have a higher reported DR value than a rip of the same vinyl on equipment with a stronger bass response.

^^^^^^
The last paragraph in this section is of particular interest and points again to equipment level and attention to detail  (setup). 

****************************************************

Some even believe that Vinyl will automatically yield a superior sound, despite the well known technical limitations and disadvantages compared to the CD.

The technical details behind this myth are as follows. The cutting heads used for creating the vinyl lacquer (or metal mother) are speaker-like electromechanical devices driven by an extremely powerful amplifier (several hundred watts). At extremely large/fast cutting head excursions, the cutting head coils may physically burn up, much like how a speaker's voice coils may be destroyed by an excessive current. Also, the diamond cutting head stylus may prematurely wear or break. This places important constraints on the maximum levels that can be recorded to a record.

^^^^
Points to the extra care needed with cutting vinyl. Another reference to the delicate cutting equipment and how if one is not careful, damage could result to it.  

Comments ... 

I discussed the differences in cartridges/tonearm/wiring, etc... in the last post. The articles are linked for reference to those interested as I found them interesting. I only browsed the articles over coffee.  Maybe coffee hadn't kicked in yet and I interpreted differently. 
As I said in my last post. System dependent references as far DR ratings are concerned, to me, would mean everything in front of the meter.  

What's your take on the video from the digital engineer ?

Here is somebody comparing the Dynamic Range levels in a video.
Vinyl against CD and his impressions.
oh .....and he is the one that created the original master digital file. 

http://productionadvice.co.uk/tt-meter-not-for-vinyl/

I found it a fun and interesting video. Watching how the meter functions answered a lot of questions for me. Before I comment further will let those interested view it.

Geoffkait - Well, obviously the dynamic range of any recording is affected by the playback system including all components and room acoustics. but we are not talking about all of that.

?? the signal - digital or vinyl is plugged into a DR Meter. Room acoustics is not in play.

and fwiw with vinyl.

No two same cartridges - are the same. Differences exist. And who listens to vinyl with the same cartridge as someone else. Very rare. Then you move further up different tonearm >>>>> wiring >>>>>>>turntable >>>>> preamp/phonostage >>>>>>> DR meter.

What does this say about the consistency in the "vinyl" DR ratings themselves ?  Lots of variables - and lets not forget the most important one with vinyl. The actual SETUP.  

I thought it was a well produced video, and after all the Dynamic Range DR numbers thrown out on this thread, very welcome to see a visual "actual wave form" of this in action - real time. Key parts at the 4:50 and 7:12 minutes marks. The first "time mark" he explains file differences; and what he actually hears (and anyone else here can too with good headphones) on the second mark.

You could see how things went from 8 DR with digital to12 DR for vinyl whenever he toggled between the two. I have seen, as I'm sure others here have as well, many analog wave forms. They vary greatly with the turntable setup. We could be talking drive system differences between idler, direct drive, belt or string. A really interesting one is on a same turntable that is able to keep consistent speed, and seeing the different wave forms for a linear and pivot tonearm. Significant wave form differences based on the different forces being put on the cartridges' cantilever/stylus against the groove. That's another thread/discussion.

The other part of the video I liked was that as the engineer who created the digital master file being used, he confirmed nothing special had been done to the vinyl rip - other than the vinyl rip. It was done using a band member's turntable which he said was "good' but not exceptional. He then discussed differences. I found the comment about image shift with the vinyl very interesting and in the first comment of the actual youtube is this.
  

the dynamics you can "see" on the vinyl aren't real, they're the result of something called "phase rotation" caused by the analogue signal path cutting the vinyl, which I can reproduce digitally.

hmm..interesting.. Would any sound engineers here like to comment on this one ? Looking to learn.

He described his digital file as more crisp with more top, the vinyl sound he called warmer. This crisp versus warmer analogy has to be the most used term in Audiophilia. You can apply those two words when comparing speakers, DAC's , amplifiers, etc... you name it. Just the mention of these two words gives anyone in this audio hobby a good idea of what is going on with the listener - in their head.

here's a more direct link to the you tube for those interested.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-AE9dL5FG8&feature=youtu.be

not associated with the video and I also liked the music being sampled.
Cheers

Mapman
BTW, playing CDs versus streaming ripped CDs from computer disk storage is another good topic to consider when assessing the overall utlity of modern digital versus vinyl.   My overall satisfaction with digital jumped way into the green when I made that transition. I have not played a CD in years other than in my car. Its rip and stream only these days baby!

I do both CD's and streaming, depending on my mood. I guess I like to handle cds and lps, and maybe from being in IT since I was 17, makes using the computer too close to work sometimes for me. IDK.  The other thing. I don't think of myself as old but my kids sure do, at least with some of my music habits. They can't believe I listen to whole cd's without skipping tracks. I tell them I want to get to know the artist, and most time, the best stuff, is the stuff that never makes it to the radio, Their not buying it.  So the computer advantage of cueing up a song list on the server is not a big deal for me. But not stepping on and knocking over piled cd's around the cd transport....:^(

In regards to new vinyl , I live in a small town with only a small HMV nearby with limited selection. If I really want something I need to drive 45 mins or have it brought in. The last thing I want is to have any vinyl handled more by couriers.   
 

@Atmasphere

Thanks for the information about using a Technics SL1200 and Grado Gold cartridge when doing a listen on a test cut, on the 14 " disc. 

The angle that the cutterhead stylus is placed at when a record is cut results in an included angle in the final disc.

Can you tell us what angle you use when doing the cutting. Do you use a set angle or can it vary for some reason ?
thanks

@Audiotomb re: Back to Black

I bought the UK version after the US one was difficult to listen to
the UK is better, but it’s not what it should be and this is a major artist’s legacy

I guess it is what it is - what was the engineer & Amy shooting for in the music ?
After adjusting VTA on the American version of Back to Back, I got it listenable but not the same enjoyment level in my room as the others I mention below. The cartridge/stylus type you are using will play a big part here. I think the engineer was shooting for an upfront, almost brash presentation of Amy in a bar with me sitting a couple tables in. :^) If this is true he accomplished this in my room. Throw Audiophilia out the door here. Listen with friends after a few drinks.

In a comparison of ladies, the LP packages Diana Krall Wall Flower, and Sarah McLachlan Shine On Lps are a much better package overall.
More care was taken and each album is covered over two lps. Alot of getting up ! You gotta really like doing this vinyl stuff to keep doing this.
The music not rated highest by DR standards, borderline, better than Back to Black. These albums are more musical, listenable, enjoyable for me.
According to HD tracks the best files are 44.1 but 24 bit.

The Lady Gaga Tony Bennett LP was a real roller coaster. I mean the vinyl not the music - the music was ok but the thin vinyl’s condition left me teed off so I returned it. This is where the heavier vinyl has an advantage. The store manager asked "what’s wrong doesn’t it play ?" I told him it played fine but not happy with the condition of the vinyl and left it at that. The guy did not need to be subjected to Vinyl-phile nervosa.

**********************************
Something I found interesting. In the process of ripping a few more cd’s from my impressionable years - I noticed this one.

Mike and the Mechanics (1985-US cd)

In big letters on back of CD.

"The Music contained on this Compact Disc was originally recorded on analog equipment. We have attempted to preserve, as closely as possible, the sound of the original recording. Because of its high resolution, however, The Compact Disc can reveal limitations of the source tape."

8^0

1985 CD - 13 Overall DR value - The CD Sounds excellent.

I looked and have a Mike and the Mechanics 1985 - Canadian LP Pressing.
I will do a compare for fun one day.

Cheers