Yeah I will add a rug but I don't think it will affect the sound by a lot. I had a big thick rug before but it sucked out a bit too much low end. |
The speakers currently are 3m apart tweeter to tweeter, 1.5m from the back wall (tweeter to wall).
I have tried pulling out the speakers almost to the middle of the room (about 2.5m out from the backwall of a 5.5m length shortwall), as well as pushing it almost all the way to the wall. The room just kinda sounds dead and muffled. On a scale of 1-10 if the dealer's showroom is a 10, mine is about a 5. The fullness, depth, detail/transparency is just not there. I have also tried covering up the big TV in the middle of the wall with a thick towel but that only muffled the center image a bit.
I keep suspecting it's the lack of sidewalls, and that everything in my room is a softer material (wooden floors, backwall/ceiling is made of wood which is kind of hollow when I knock on it).
Both digital and analogue have the same problems. |
Actually I don't think the drapes made much difference. I thought it would, but it actually doesn't for some reason.
As far as speakers too big for my room, well my room's volume is quite big if you consider that it's a semi-open floor plan (about 14 meter x 5.5m x 2.8m, but not completely rectangular so minus some volume). If the speakers are too big I would imagine that there would be too much energy, i.e too bright, too forward? That is certainly not the case. It just sounds veiled, with a soundstage that is between the speakers only. As far as depth, it does get deeper as I pull the speakers out, but it does not get more layered and more detailed. The decays on Diana Krall's voice (the "hhhhaaaaaa") is very short as compared to the same speakers/amps (but diff preamp) at the dealer.
I'm getting a bit skeptical here because on a scale from 5-10, if the dealer is a 10 and I'm a 5, I don't know if it's possible that tuning/tweaking/speaker positioning can lift it up to a 10 when most of the equipment is here. I'm using a borrowed Orpheus Two preamp until the Wavac PR T1 arrives. Yes everything's not 100% broken in including cabling, digital, analogue, speakers, but can that make THAT much of a difference to lift it from a 5 to a 10? Also I do not have any power conditioning as everything plugs straight to 3 dedicated 20amp lines into the wall.
The dealer of course says it will get great with time and maybe switch around some cabling. He probably just wants my money (which he already has a lot of).
Should I wait 3 months for everything to break in, keep tuning/tweaking the speaker placement, etc and hope the sound quality can do quantum leaps? |
Thanks for all your wonderful suggestions. Over the next few days/weeks I will try them all.
Cmalsk: FYI the dealer is being helpful. He's been here to try and tune the system and I will have him back you can be sure of that.
Richard Stacey - Cables are almost the same (Transparent on the preamp/amp/speaker except I used Reference line and he has MusicWave Ultra, and Argento on the digital front end) while I don't have any power conditioning and he does.
As far as DRC, that could help quite a lot and I will try that later if all else fails.
Rob/RTN1 - hey it's Isaac BTW (changed emails so changed login). I will take some more photos and put them up no problem. What I know for sure right now is I'm very far away from the Rockports I heard in 2 different rooms (one at the dealer, one at the distributor) running Gryphons/Transparent. I highly doubt it's the Gryphon's just because I listened extensively to them in both these rooms on the same speakers and they were fantastic (very transparent, liquid, detailed, dynamic, great soundstage, etc etc).
I will play around more with speaker positioning, listening position, switching the speaker L to R so the side firing woofers face either, and also borrow some acoustic panels/traps. I'm still skeptical as to how much all this can help if I'm not 70-80% there already. Stay tuned!
Again, thanks for all your guys's help. |
Mapman, no I heard it with the Gryphon Mirage or the Gryphon Sonata Allegro preamp. I have borrowed the Mirage in my system before. The Wavac is actually not in my system right now but I'm borrowing an Orpheus Two to get by. I can't say 100% it's not the preamp causing this, but with the borrowed Mirage unit it's better but still far away from what I heard at 2 rooms with almost identical equipment.
Anyway you are right I should eliminate the preamp as a main reason for the sound. However I have been down this route before, ie buying equipment to eliminate variables.
Previously I had Gamut L5 speakers mated with the ML 326S preamp and 432 amp. The speakers were too small for my room and didn't have any bass no matter where I moved it. So I bought the Rockport Aquila after hearing two fantastic setups all running the "formula" of Gryphons mated with Rockports, and also a third room with Rockport Mira Grand IIs and Gryphons. The sound was MUCH improved when the Aquilas came into my room, but of course still far away from the two dealers and distributor. They said it's the MLs and cabling not matching the Rockports so switch cabling to Transparent and amps to the Gryphons. Another great improvement. But the huge soundstage width and depth And sense of ease at the dealers was not replicated. And that's really myajor goal with this system.
Anyway.... I hoping for quantum leaps here with more tweaking. I'm at the point of no return so I might as well make sure I buy the right preamp too. If my system identical to the dealer then they have no excuses. But they'll have my money already. |
Ken/Lasercd,
Yeah let's definitely keep in touch on how your Aquilas are going. I just moved the side firing woofers so they point each other to try it out. I think there was a definite improvement on tighness and punch as well as overall balance. I still have to do some more careful listening and playing around with speaker positioning and see how it works out.
My theory on the lack of great hall space is the lack of sidewalls, i.e the lack of time delayed reflections that gives you the sense of space and depth. I'm going to try some diffusion on the front wall behind the spakers to see if it helps.
RTN1 - agree it's the accumulation of small changes that will make a huge difference over time. We'll see I guess.
The idea to use Omni directional speakers is an intersting one. I may explore that if all else fails.
Cheers. |
Kevinzoe - thank you very much for your very thorough response. I greatly appreciate that.
I'm going to be trying a few different things over the coming weeks. I've defintely thought about turning it 90 degrees and may even do that if all else fails. With that setup though, I'll have sidewalls but no front and back walls. Would that be a problem?
One question on how the windows suck out the bass (because I do feel like I lack some bass - and nobody has ever questioned Rockports on bass... it's usually one of their strengths). Why do thin windows act as an absorber of bass?
I'll be trying some diffusion on the frontwall (where the TV is mounted now) this weekend, and maybe switch to thicker curtains. I heard diffusion should be in the center of the front wall for best performance so I'll put it in front of the TV for now just to try it. If it helps dramatically I'll get rid of the big 60" Pioneer plasma TV and install a projector instead (I don't watch TV much anyway).
I've already switched the side firing woofers to face inwards but have not listened to it long enough to draw any conclusions yet.
Professional help is an option (i.e Rives) but I have access to resources to try out (diffusions, absorbers, etc so I might as well try it first instead of getting someone to send me a theoretical drawing. Without sidewalls (building them is not an option), there aren't THAT many variables. I can adjust speaker position, listening position, thicker curtains, diffusion/absorption on the front wall, and diffusion/absorption on the ceiling, or maybe a thick carpet.
Anyway, thanks for all the help again. Will keep you guys updated! |
Thanks for all the help guys.
I've added some diffusion to the corners of the front wall, switched around the speakers so the woofers now fire inwards, pulled out the speakers even further (now about 2.2m into the room from front wall to tweeter), and moved the speakers closer so they aren't so wide apart.
The sound has vastly improved, maybe from a 5 to a 7 (if the dealer was a 10 in his properly treated dedicated room), and I expect I can get it maybe up to an 8-8.5 max with more diffusion on the front wall, maybe get rid of the TV in the middle, a bit more speaker placement adjustments, and a better preamp.
The soundstage depth is finally there, the sense of reverb/echo sounds more proper, the bass tighted up with more SPLs, and now the weight of the notes finally sound like Rockports.
My complaint has drastically decreased, but right now the biggest issues are probably 1) soundstage height is a bit too low and 2) I still want more overall bloom in the soundstage (envelopment from up down left right).
Does anyone know how to get more soundstage height? Seems like width and depth are the easier ones to get but height is really hard. Should I tilt the speaker more forward or backwards (by adjusting the footers)?
Anyway, thanks again for all your guys's help. I'm finally getting happy with this system after spending all the money and it just goes to show you proper setup is SO damn important. I was adjusting centimeters with speaker position when I should have been adjusting them in much bigger gaps. I had to basically pull the speakers 1/2 way into the room (guess I bought too big of a speaker!!) and space them much less far apart. I'm happy that the Rockport's tweeter/mid/bass integrate fast between the drivers or else it would be a bigger problem to deal with running out of room space. |
