"For me, the next component to upgrade would be the BAT preamp from a 52SE to a 53SE. But something occurred to me. I don’t listen loud. The gain on my PSA DSD is set to less than 100 and the BAT preamp is usually set between -20 and -10. So if my volume control is never set in the + range, is my preamp doing ANYTHING other than attenuating the volume and serving as a multi-input switch? Is all that Super Tube, single gain stage, zero feedback, high energy storage circuitry a waste of money?"
A preamp does quite a bit more than just adjust volume. Reading your post, it sounds like you may have a technical background. Is that the case? That may have an effect on how you deal with this, that’s why I ask. |
"So if I try the passive route, what do I look for?
Thanks All!
Slanski62 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)"
Since you already have an outstanding preamp, I would say to make a commitment to get rid of it until you are sure that you have a definite replacement that you like better. The easiest way to try a passive, if you don't have a local dealer, is to call The Cable Company (fatwyre.com). They lend out audio components for you to try as demo's. That way you don't have to buy anything first, just to see if you like it or not.
I wouldn't get my hopes up on going with a passive, though. I like passives very much and recommend them on a regular basis. The reason I do is because you usually have to buy a really good active preamp to get where it actually sounds as good, if not better, than a passive. Your preamp, in my opinion at least, is beyond that mark by a comfortable margin. I see trying a passive more as a learning experience for you, than a serious effort to get better sound than what you have. But I still say try it. Its great experience, and you may end up using what you learn in a different system or situation. |
"03-20-15: Shakeydeal
"The reason I do is because you usually have to buy a really good active preamp to get where it actually sounds as good, if not better, than a passive. Your preamp, in my opinion at least, is beyond that mark by a comfortable margin."
I don't agree with this at all. I have owned two BAT preamps, and several more actives which were far better than them. A good passive has beat every one of them. I would be willing to bet that the VK-52 would not fare any better."
I believe you, and there's nothing wrong with what you're saying. My post was meant to be personal opinion, not fact. The OP seems to be happy with his BAT, so I would expect a passive would be hard pressed to win him over. If he expressed some disappointment with it, that would be another matter. But we really won't know for sure until he tries a passive. You may be right. |
"03-20-15: Mattmiller
That BAT preamp isn't adding anything in terms of beautiful tone or accurate highs. And at low volumes FORGET IT. I would get a AYRE preamp if you want to go Soild State."
The one thing I think we're forgetting here, is that the OP already has a BAT preamp and is very happy with it. So much, that his first choice was to upgrade to a better BAT preamp. Regardless of what our personal tastes are, the OP is the one who has to listen to his new preamp, not us. |
"What could be better? Hardly any noise or distortion added by these simple passive parts. No feedback, no worrying about what type of capacitors – just musical perfection.
And yet there are guys out there who don’t care for the result. “It sucks the life out of the music”, is a commonly heard refrain (really - I’m being serious here!). Maybe they are reacting psychologically to the need to turn the volume control up compared to an active preamp."
He makes a good point. But I don't understand why Pass only makes active preamps. And they're not cheap. |
I was just kidding. I didn't think anyone would take my comment seriously. |
"The OP has way too much gain as he has to lower the PSA volume (which could then be bit stripping), but is also in the negative volume on the BAT volume, which means it's not pre-amplifying but de-amplifying, which a total waste of source signal strength. It's like putting attenuators networks on a MC cartridge and then having to amplifying again, noise and all."
The BAT preamp lets you adjust gain for each input separately, as well as globally. So if you have a source with high gain that doesn't allow the volume to go positive, all you have to do is lower the gain on that one input the source is connected to. |
"03-22-15: Georgelofi
All I can say to this is, in the OP's case, how can $10k worth of electronics in the signal path with way too much gain + another set of interconnects, sound better that no preamp and interconnect at all. "
Al I can say about the OP, is that it looks like he's the smartest one here. Something tells me he ran from this thread like a burning building. |
"So you can see, he's doing exactly what Nelson Pass is against"
I'm still trying to figure out what Nelson Pass has to do with all of this. And even if what you are saying is true, there are other aspects to a preamps design that effect sound quality. |
Its just that one integrated amp. |
"Mr. Hansen of Ayre has stated that passives will outperform actives in suitable systems until one gets pretty high up in price for the active unit. There might be some truth in that.
Larryi (System | Threads | Answers | This Thread)"
I think you're right about Pass and the Ayre AX-7 has a passive line stage. His reason for not using an active is that he can't make something active that sounds as good for what the AX-7 sells for. |
"Is the Luminous Audio Axiom a decent passive? It uses a conventional resistive ladder network for attenuation. It’s not a lot of money, so I won’t be risking much."
I haven't heard one myself, but the comments are generally very positive. If you can get one at a price that wouldn't involve too much risk, I say try it.
"Finally, there doesn’t seem to be a lot of love for BAT in this group. I expect their next to top-of-the-line (at the time) would be pretty decent. If you disagree, please tell me why. Thanks!"
There's one thing you need to understand when reading our comments. If you sat every single one of us down and had us listen to the same exact system, we would all hear something different. We all have different taste's, level of experience and beliefs in how we judge things. For example, I will immediately focus on the high frequencies. That's what's most important to me. I may miss a flaw in the bass, but one of the others may not. Some listeners will focus on bass and not so much the highs, like me. Some people like a lot of detail, some do not. Some are very picky about dynamic contrast, and others like coherency. At this point, you probably understand why I asked you if you had a technical background. That's another obstacle to deal with.
All of this means that you should use our comments as just that. Get some ideas from them. But under no circumstances, should you let us make decisions for you. That is something you must do on your own. We don't have to listen to your system, you do. Just because some of us don't care for BAT means nothing. If you like it, that's all that matters. Every single brand in existence has people that don't like them. BAT's no exception.
My recommendation would be to explore some of the other brands everyone here has recommended. You may come to prefer something else, or you may stick with what you currently have. There's no right or wrong here. It would just be unfortunate if you let us talk you out of a BAT preamp, if that's what you really like best. You shouldn't feel guilty or wrong about keeping something you like. |
"You may also know that Georgelofi is designer/builder of the Lightspeed Attenuator aka LSA."
I didn't know that. I take back my recommendation! lol. Get the Placette instead. |
Atmasphere,
"A preamp does these things:
1) provide volume control
2) provide any needed gain
3) provide switching for various sources
4) control artifact from interconnect cables."
Looking at the post you referenced on what the preamp does, I have a question. I've heard this before, where people list these things and say that's all a preamp does, almost like its a trivial matter. (In general, I'm not singling you out.). Why is it then, when you put different active preamps in a system, the sound changes so much? Imaging changes, dynamics, contrast, etc... And a related question. I hear all the time comments to the effect of, a preamp can't add anything. It can only take away. If that's the case, how do account for something like image size getting much larger when switching from a passive or source with a volume control, to an active line stage? There are some big differences, not subtle ones. It makes perfect sense that a preamp can't add anything to a recording, but listening clearly proves otherwise. (Maybe no proves, but something is going on that's audible.) |
"03-27-15: Milpai
Zd542, don't feel offended just because you have not listed your system here.
But I found this statement funny :-)
Most of the stuff I recommend, I don't even own. "
No one likes a good laugh better than me. No offence at all. Just the opposite actually.
"Are you telling me that you are recommending stuff on a whim? We were not talking of putting together a system for the OP."
No. Not everyone has the same taste as I do. Sometimes what an OP will ask for is clearly not to my personal taste. It would be selfish of me to recommend only things I like, knowing full well that its not the best advice. For example, I don't like Magnepan and B&W speakers, but I would never think of talking someone out of them if that's what will make them happy. |
"Does it mean that all these highly regarded active preamps also have not been designed properly? So which one would you say is wrong: cables or active preamp?
Milpai (System | Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)"
Neither is wrong. Audio components are usually designed with the understanding that they will be used in a wide variety of systems. Its impossible for any designer to make products that will be optimal in all systems. It just can't happen. That's why there's nothing wrong with the cables or the preamp. They just can't work for everyone in every situation. |
"03-22-15: Onhwy61
It's not really accurate to draw a conclusion about whether Nelson Pass thinks active preamps are the best solution for most systems just because the company with his name offers that type of product. At one point point Pass Labs offered an active loudspeaker, but now they only offer passive loudspeakers. Does that mean he really thinks passive designs are superior, or is it a reflection of marketplace realties? I don't know and only Mr. Pass and his cohorts can truly respond. Integrity can be expressed by making a high quality product that people want to buy. If you look at the vast number of products Mr. Pass has been associated with it's apparent that he is very flexible at doing that."
I think you're exactly right on that. You need to take each system and person on a case by case basis. In the end, everyone's system is probably going to be different. For me personally, I think a passive can be a great low cost solution for high end sound. But as you start going up in quality, I feel you get to a point where actives start to sound better. Obviously, not everyone would agree with me. And that's a good thing. No progress would be made is we all wanted the exact same thing. If we never had the experience of audio equipment we didn't like, we wouldn't own the same equipment we have today. The stuff we do like. The negative is what drives us to the positive. |
"I feel folks who come here for sincere audio discussions should post their system so that the other party can understand why the poster is so exited about his/her system. I think we all have gone through a certain phase of changes/upgrades, to arrive at what we like. So why not post your equipment here for others to see and then decide why the poster is exited about what he/she is recommending.
Milpai (System | Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)"
Listing ones system, in no way, better qualifies the advice they give. How could it? How do you know the system someone lists is a completed project. They could be currently going through the mistake phase. Or any other phase, for that matter. Most of the stuff I recommend, I don't even own.
I firmly believe that to be successful in putting a system together, you need to take responsibility for your own actions. If you're fool enough to take a review or recommendation without personal verification before the purchase, you've got no one but yourself to blame. Even though we sit and listen to music, audio is a very hands on hobby. If you want good sound, you have to go out and get it for yourself. You can't just let someone tell you what to buy and expect to be happy. Its like asking a life guard to tell you how to swim, and then go jump in a lake. |
