So why this public statement from him (again below), and it is in direct reference to what the OP is experiencing, TOO MUCH GAIN EVERYWHERE.
He has a prefect match with the PSA direct into his Cary's and eliminating all that active preamp gain. And I bet my life that the PSA has a beefier output stage than the BAT tube preamp has, so it should drive even better.
" Nelson Pass,
We’ve got lots of gain in our electronics. More gain than some of us need or want. At least 10 db more.
Think of it this way: If you are running your volume control down around 9 o’clock, you are actually throwing away signal level so that a subsequent gain stage can make it back up.
Routinely DIYers opt to make themselves a “passive preamp” - just an input selector and a volume control.
What could be better? Hardly any noise or distortion added by these simple passive parts. No feedback, no worrying about what type of capacitors – just musical perfection.
And yet there are guys out there who don’t care for the result. “It sucks the life out of the music”, is a commonly heard refrain (really - I’m being serious here!). Maybe they are reacting psychologically to the need to turn the volume control up compared to an active preamp."
Cheers George
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"03-23-15: Slanski62
Hi. Trying my DAC direct into my amps is certainly a good idea. I need to re-arrange my equipment so that my interconnects will reach both amps. I’ll try to do that some time this week."
This is the most sane comment in this thread so far, as it will cost nothing, and the gains could be massive.
Cheers George
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12-21-05: Jmcgrogan2
I've moved on to the newest fad, passive amplification. It's great!! There's no amplifier like no amplifier!!
All you that thought passive line stages were the end of the road are wrong, just wait until you add passive amplification to the loop. No more power cords needed....period!
Wahoo!!! And as for your little dig. BTW: Wahoo!!!! Passive amplification??? Now that's an oxymoron, so was your above post. Cheers George |
03-31-15: Marqmike
Thanks Grannyring for the comments. I am looking forward to hear how the LSA works for you this time Doubt it will be a favourable outcome, "once again". this will be the 4th time, why keep trying??? Knowing Grannyring's obsession with the TRL Dude. Cheers George |
I'll just show this from another thread.
Quote Grannyring:
"I am usually 100% against passives "
Cheers George
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Let him run then, if he did.
If he asked "Is my preamp useless"
Well yes then in his case, as he has to turn down his PSA source (risking bit stripping) so he has then some usable volume range on his BAT pre, even it then is in the negative of it's volume range.
So you can see, he's doing exactly what Nelson Pass is against, attenuating the source only to bring it back up again, (NOISE AND ALL) with the active preamp, and in his case the BAT is still in the negative of it's amplification. So it's no win on either component.
Cheers George
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Robr45 hi, read again the OP's first post about the amount of gain he has, then read "gods" words below.
NELSON PASS:
"We’ve got lots of gain in our electronics. More gain than some of us need or want. At least 10 db more.
Think of it this way: If you are running your volume control down around 9 o’clock, you are actually throwing away signal level so that a subsequent gain stage can make it back up.
Routinely DIYers opt to make themselves a “passive preamp” - just an input selector and a volume control.
What could be better? Hardly any noise or distortion added by these simple passive parts. No feedback, no worrying about what type of capacitors – just musical perfection.
And yet there are guys out there who don’t care for the result. “It sucks the life out of the music”, is a commonly heard refrain (really - I’m being serious here!). Maybe they are reacting psychologically to the need to turn the volume control up compared to an active preamp."
Cheers George |
Your right Swampwalker.
My aim was originally trying to get the OP of this thread to do, was to go direct with his PS Audio DSD into his amps, with no any mention from me of my own product.
Others seem to like to bring it up as a target. Being 6'2" 240lb I don't usually back down from much, but to save the OP's thread I will cease any further retaliation.
Cheers George
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Facts are there to see, members just need to look at Bills (Grannyring) statements here and over at the Lightspeed forum, it's not hard see what going on.
I'll leave it at that.
Cheers George
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No negativity or accusations of conspiracy.
Just presenting a portion of written facts/quotes.
Cheers George
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I just can't fathom why some one would buy at different time 4 x Lightspeed Attenuators.
A second one I can understand, thinking, "maybe I made a mistake by selling the first one", but now a 4th one??
It's beyond me, but hey keep buying them as it keeps me in beer money.
Cheers George
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Here is the graph of a 10kohm passive output impedance. On the left (vertical axis) is it's output impedance, for the given volume resistance (horizontal axis). As you can see at half volume rotation it is at the worst 2.5kohm output impedance, either side it's output impedance is lower. http://i.stack.imgur.com/cVUCc.png Cheers George |
Just to add to the above, when these high capacitance interconnects (>200pf per foot) are used, they can cause a high frequency filter, not only with passives but also with the many tube preamps.
This is another reason they have no place in hi-end audio. Thank god there are not too many of them around.
Cheers George
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Scare tactics of the capacitance of interconnects with passive preamps are off the mark. As most good interconnect cables are less than <100pf (picofarad) per foot. And at 1-2mts are fine.
Only when you get into cheap nasty cables do these scare tactics come into play, when they have >200pf per foot or higher, and those types of cables have no right in hi-end audio.
Cheers George
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Just to give an example,
A 10kohm passive preamp which all solid state sources can drive, has a worst case 2.5kohm output impedance.
In the worst case of 2.5kohm, this passive preamp driving reasonable quality interconnects of 100pf per foot at 2mts long will give a high frequency roll off at -3db @ 106khz!!!
And with just one meter interconnects it is -3db @ 212khz!!!
And this is interconnects of 100pf, if you get good quality ones that are 50pf per foot, the HF roll off point off doubles again
To -3db @ 212khz for 2mts!!
And -3db @ 424khz for 1mt!!
As you can see only dogs and bats can hear this kind of HF filtering.
Cheers George
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Going direct like the OP can do, will not add or subtract anything that the source is presenting. As his source (PSA) has perfect impedance match and voltage output to drive his Cary amps and the "interconnect".
Any active pre that is put between, will colour the sound, he may wish to do that but, he will also get way too much gain as well.
Cheers George |
"Zd542 I'm still trying to figure out what Nelson Pass has to do with all of this."
"We’ve got lots of gain in our electronics. More gain than some of us need or want. At least 10 db more.
Think of it this way: If you are running your volume control down around 9 o’clock, you are actually throwing away signal level so that a subsequent gain stage can make it back up."
If you can't make out what he's saying, I can't help.
Cheers George
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All I can say to this is, in the OP's case, how can $10k worth of electronics in the signal path with way too much gain + another set of interconnects, sound better that no preamp and interconnect at all.
As his PSA can drive perfectly 100% the Cary mono's direct?
By reducing his source gain so much, and then to bring it back up again with the preamp so his has control over the volume, all he is doing is amplifying the noise floor as well.
It's ALWAYS best to get the full level signal from the source, not to attenuate it then only to bring it back up again further down stream.
Cheers George
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Proselytizing, I don't think I do to much of that, as I'm not going blind, yet! And you know what mother used to say.
Cheers George
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Nelson Pass may believe active preamps yield better sound or why would he bother designing and building them? To maximize profits, and market demand for believers of active preamps?. It just seems if he truly felt passives were the better choice he'd be building them as part of his Pass Labs line He does in a way, the First Watt B1 @ $1000.00, which is a passive with a simple two transistor buffer, to drive low impedance amps? If it were marketed as Pass Labs and gorgeous to look at as that line is, it may effect the $KKK preamp sales?. Cheers George |
The OP has way too much gain as he has to lower the PSA volume (which could then be bit stripping), but is also in the negative volume on the BAT volume, which means it's not pre-amplifying but de-amplifying, which a total waste of source signal strength. It's like putting attenuators networks on a MC cartridge and then having to amplifying again, noise and all.
What the OP should do is to listen to his PSA direct into his Cary amps as this has perfect impedance and voltage match.
Then see if he can at least equal or better this by putting an active preamp or passive preamp in the signal path.
Cheers George
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He makes a few models of poweramps that are at or below 33kohm input impedance, this then will have a ? for a passive to drive at 100% perfect impedance match.
But to counter that Nelson Pass does make his First Watt B1 preamp which is buffered passive preamp, that is just a passive pre with a unity gain simple two transistor active buffer, which then can drive these or other poweramps that are at or below 33kohm input impedance.
And yes he does make proper preamps that have gain and are $$$$ but he is a business man, and needs to make money.
In the OP's case he can drive his PSA dac direct into his Cary amps and have the prefect match with no preamp in the way.
Cheers George
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As other have said Slanski62, use your PSA dac direct into your Cary mono's, it will be an eye/ear opener, and you may sell your preamp. As for your phono stage, it's a pity the PSA does not have analogue inputs to except the phono stage. So purchase this cheap $49 passive that gives you input switching as well for everything. Then you can still go direct into your amp with your dac when you want the very best from your digital source. http://schiit.com/products/sysCheers George |
