Is harmonic accuracy and timbre important at all?


Disclaimer: I am not Richard Hardesty in disguise. But I have reached similar ground after many years of listening and equipment swapping and upgrading and would enjoy discourse from a position that is simply not discussed enough here.

I feel a strong need to get on a soap box here, albeit friendly, and I don't mind a rigorous discussion on this topic. My hope is that, increasingly, manufacturers will take notice of this important aspect of music reproduction. I also know that it takes time, talent, money and dedication to accomplish accuracy of timbre in speaker design and that "shamanism" and "snake oil," along with major bux spent on fine cabinetry that may do little to improve the sound, exists everywhere in this industry.

I fully acknowledge that Dunlavy and Meadowlark, a least for now, are gone, and that only Vandersteen and Thiel survive amidst a sea of harmonically inaccurate, and frequently far more expensive, speakers.

Can you help me understand why anyone would want to hear timbre and harmonic content that is anything but as accurate as possible upon transducing the signal fed by the partnering amplifier? It seems to me if you skew the sonic results in any direction away from the goal of timbral accuracy, then you add, or even subtract, any number of poorly understood and potentially chaotic independent and uncontrollable variables to listening enjoyment.

I mean, why would you want to hear only some of the harmonic content of a clarinet or any other instrument that is contained on the recording? Why would you not want the speaker, which we all agree is the critical motor that conveys the musical content at the final stage of music reproduction, to provide you with as much as possible by minimizing harmonic conent loss due to phase errors, intentionally imparted by the speaker designer?

Why anyone would choose a speaker that does this intentionally, by design, and that is the key issue here, is something I simply cannot fathom, unless most simply do not understand what they're missing.

By intentional, I mean inverting the midrange or other drivers in phase in an ill-fated attempt to counter the deleterious effects that inexpensive, high-order crossovers impart upon the harmonic content of timbre. This simply removes harmonic content. None of these manufacurers has ever had the cojones to say that Jim Thiel, Richard Vandersteen or John Dunlavy were wrong about this fundamental design goal. And none of them ever tries to counter the fact that they intentionally manufacture speakers they know, by their own hand, are sonically inaccurate, while all the all the same in many cases charging unsuspecting so-called audiophiles outlandish summs of money.

Also, the use of multiple drivers assigned identical function which has clearly been shown to smear phase and creates lobing, destroying essentially the point source nature of instruments played in space that give spatial, time and phasing so important to timbre rendering.

I truly belive that as we all get better at listening and enjoying all the music there is on recordings, both digital and analog, of both good and bad recording quality, these things become ever more important. If you learn to hear them, they certainly do matter. But to be fair, this also requires spending time with speakers that, by design, demonstrably present as much harmonic phase accuracy that timbre is built upon, at the current level of the state of the art.

Why would anyone want a speaker to alter that signal coming from the amp by removing some harmonics while retaining or even augmenting others?

And just why in heck does JMLab, Wilson, Pipedreams and many others have to charge such large $um$ at the top of their product lines (cabinetry with Ferrari paint jobs?) to not even care to address nor even attempt to achieve this? So, in the end I have to conclude that extremely expensive, inaccurate timbre is preferred by some hobbyists called audiophiles? I find that simply fascinating. Perhaps the process of accurate timbre appreciation is just a matter of time...but in the end, more will find, as I did, that it does matter.
stevecham

Showing 8 responses by bigtee

I have always thought that "Hi end" audio was about reproducing a given source as accurately as possible without requards to the quality of this source. Crap in, crap out. Good in, good out, etc. With this in mind, I would think that a pair of speakers should be able to reproduce an excellent recording correctly and make a bad recording sound bad.
I have noticed the number of people stating that the room influence negates accuracy, or this effects it and that effects it and therefore you really don't need accurate speakers. I consider this pure BS!
If something in the chain (source) starts out messed up, it will end up even worse after the cummulative effects of the chain ending with inaccurate speakers. You stand no chance of getting annything remotely correct.
I just think you stand a better chance with as accurate of components as possible. If inaccuracies are the rule of the day then why spend all this money. Are we buying looks or sound?
I feel speakers MUST start off as flat in frequency as possible and then get the other parameters as close as you can.
I agree with the original poster on the fact that once you use time and phase correct speakers, it's hard to go back. I too hear abnormalities in the sound of a lot of so called high end speakers that sell for a lot of bucks.
As for dynamics and other so called drawbacks of time and phase speakers, how do you know they aren't correct and you are listening to exaggerations of the original source with high slope speakers?
Amplified music in a live venue is an exaggeration of what is actually going on. Colorations are added through the electronic and speaker chain.
I played sax for many years and I can say without a doubt that time and phase speakers reproduce live sax better than any speaker I have heard. They do get the harmonic structure correct. I have used a live feed to test this.
The consumer is certainly free to purchase and use any speaker that he or she likes and sounds "Correct" to them. I certainly have no problem with that.
However, I do believe that from what "High end" once stood for, it has been transposed to what costs more. This becomes evident when arguments start over why should a speaker be accurate. If it's not to be technically correct, then what the hell is all this fuss over. Buy what you want and let it go! It reminds me of what is better, a Chevy or a Ford? They both get you from point "A" to point "B" same as a Lexus. I think "Status" has become the rule of the day.
The problem I have with this idea is we are not reproducing a live event. We are reproducing what is on a disc that someone has decided what it should sound like for us. Since we ARE reproducing an electronic waveform from the source, I feel it should be as accurate as possible. Otherwise, what do you have? Anything different is a distortion is it not?
I will repeat, I think the goal of high end audio should be to reproduce the source as accurate as possible. Anything else makes all of this a moot point and high end means nothing except making people feel it's all about high prices.
Shadorn, I agree, frequency response is not everything. It's only a start. I do feel that any decent speaker must start here first, however. Then get the other stuff right.
They're many design attributes of Vandies.
I think sounding accurate and being accurate are 2 different things. The speaker is either accurate or it's not. If the room is messed up, changing the speaker is not going to help. Treating the room is the only option.
If a speaker comes off the technical development path and its basic characteristics are flawed, it will never get that back. It may "Sound" good to some but sounding good and accurate are 2 different things.
It has been my experience over the years that most "Audiophiles" will not like an accurate speaker. We have all been exposed to inaccurate reproduction and developed what is probably a skewed look at things. We are looking for what "Sounds" good to us and not what is correct. I think we can blame a lot on poor sources. The CD for the most part stinks. Sure, they are a few good sounding disks around but most are pretty bad. A lot of the old remastered CD's to SACD sound even worse on that format. It exposes their flaws and I think accurate speakers do this also. Nobody wants 3/4 of their collection sounding bad. So we tune it to "Sound" good most of the time. Nothing wrong with that but if you just accept the fact, you can sure buy great audio for a lot less money.
I just think a lot of us, including myself are chasing our tails on a never ending quest that will never be fulfilled.
2 channel audio is slowly dying away being replaced by multi channel which IMO is even a bigger pile of crap. Here, inaccurancies are the rule of the day and I'm not sure I would want a "Accurate" home theater. I want a home theater that sounds good! Stark contrast to 2 channel.
In conclusion, people are going to buy what sounds good to them no matter what the technical specifications. There will always be the dissenting few that demand accuracy, quality and value for their dollar. But just look at what most of the population buys. Can I say Best Buy!
It is a real shame that audio is going the direction it is. More and more pricey equipment and more and more of the same with the same arguments.
When you have no real standards, things get pretty chaotic.
I think, "If it makes you happy, then you have done good!"
Get off the trail and buy more music. That's what it is all about---right?
Warrenh, About as long as took the first string of the guitar to be plucked or the first horn to blow! I don't believe you can buy close to live at any price and never will. That's why I think we chase our tails so much.
Actually, it's kind of depressing. What's an old audiophile to do?
I really can't agree that accuracy is "In the ear of the beholder." As mentioned above, accuracy means different things to different people. When dealing with a technical product, you must adhere to some sort of standards defining accuracy. Accurate signal reproduction is the goal. (Maybe you should change the source and not the speaker!) It is a measurable quantity even if all of the measures are not complete due to parameters not fully defined by science at this point.
Your ears are not really what I would call a accurate measurement. If you had a "True" hearing test, you would find that as for frequency, our ears are no more accurate than some of these so called accurate speakers (especially as we age.) It's kind of like designing a bearing based on noise instead of tolerance. Most assume our hearing just rolls off with time but that is not the real case. We have "Response deviations also."
What disturbs me about the whole audio thing is we have speakers coming out that offer "Better accurancy" better this, better that and increase in prices. The so called "High end" is killing itself. If we debate accuracy as we do and then go back and say, "Well it sounds good so we buy it," then what are we really doing. We DON"T need all this debate because everyone will buy what sounds best to them and be done with it. Checking A'gon's listings tell me everyone is not exactly satisfied with their choices. And "Moving up" doesn't cut it because a lot of the equipment being sold is accurate stuff.
I am a firm believer that "Truly measurable accurate speakers" based on current science offer a better chance at sounding good most of the time. You can really look at todays "Full" set of measurements and get an idea to how a speaker will sound. Manufacturers do it all the time! Yea, you can tweak a little by ear to have a flavor but this is "The designers" idea of good sound that may or may not compare with a buyers thoughts.
I also think that frequency response is a starting point. Big deviations here and everything else becomes a moot point.
Crap, this could go on forever.
My bottom line is why do we pay so much for products that sound good which sort of negates the engineering aspect. I mean, where does cost fit in this. It's like designing a better match and charging 3 times for it! It still lights the same fire.
Opalchip, Good post and what I was actually trying to convey in my post. I like yours better! Maybe we should just come up with a new buzz word. High end sure lost it's original definition but so have a lot of other words in todays society.
Vandersteen's tolerances are every bit as tight as the Dunlavy's were. Take a look at the Vandersteen web sight. The 3a Sigs are spec'd + or - 1.5db and within a 1/2db of each other and are compared to a reference. These are the $3500 units. The 5's and 5a's are closer.