I've owned in the past a large number of major name-brand top Class AB solid state amps and have heard and love many others as well as many great tube amps and Class A solid state. All the AB that I owned were big, expensive, heavy, wonderful sounding and I was one of those hardcore solid-state amp guys that swore I would never have digital amps of any kind.
Well they've come a long way and my speakers are highly powered internally for mid-bass, bass and sub-bass by some great next generation Class D amps.
Furthermore, I've owned a Legacy i.V4 ULTRA amp since May of 2020 and am still shocked at how damned good it is and how those 100, 200+ amps costing many tens of thousands of dollars are no longer in my system as I'm really impressed by the power, dynamics, finesse, musicality and all other aspects of this next generation digital amp.
Very impressive amp regardless of what type of amplification it is. |
(correction to earlier post as it is no longer editable)
should say 100, 200+ pound amps.... I've corrected it here:
I've owned in the past a large number of major name-brand top Class AB solid state amps and have heard and love many others as well as many great tube amps and Class A solid state. All the AB that I owned were big, expensive, heavy, wonderful sounding and I was one of those hardcore solid-state amp guys that swore I would never have digital amps of any kind.
Well they've come a long way and my speakers are highly powered internally for mid-bass, bass and sub-bass by some great next generation Class D amps.
Furthermore, I've owned a Legacy i.V4 ULTRA amp since May of 2020 and am still shocked at how damned good it is and how those 100+, 200+ pound (weight) amps costing many tens of thousands of dollars are no longer in my system as I'm really impressed by the power, dynamics, finesse, musicality and all other aspects of this next generation digital amp.
Very impressive amp regardless of what type of amplification it is.
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@nitrobob Congratulations on what sounds like a great system! I had Caliber XDs stacked on 2 Foundation subs driven by Wavelet before I went up to Valor and the results were both earth-shattering and musically fantastic. The subs require good break-in to sound their best, 250+ hours and they are even tighter, more impactful, graceful and musical then straight OOTB.
As I understand it, the i.V2 may be at Ultra build level by its design (check with Legacy).
For the other Ultra models, instead of using one 1200AS2 stereo board as I understand it to drive 2 channels (so 2 boards in a 4ch, 3 in a 6ch and 4 in an 8ch), the Ultra doubles down and uses an entire 1200AS2 board to drive a single channel. The results are noticeable for 2, 3 and 4 ch listening, dynamics, etc. I'm a customer and have learned as I proceeded up the line so please check with Legacy for all details. |
@atmasphere +1 on that,....well said!
@nitrobob Thanks,....I used to have a very large, complex, costly and (I thought) great-sounding/viewing 7.1 HT and 2-ch hybrid system up until late 2008-2009. I missed 2-ch music whenever I was immersed in a movie and also was tired of chasing the ever-evolving standards in multi-channel audio and home theater decoding standards, pre-processing, post-processing, video standards and all they bring along, etc...so I've stuck to 2-channel fully since 2009. I did love the sport of home theater so to speak however my listening and system building has given me much more happiness ever since choosing only 1 addiction to chase :-) |
class d amplification is a just technology
how it is designed and voiced determines how it sounds
just like a class ab amp can sound sharp with flat soundstage... well sometimes, even often the case... but not always Great post! |
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@viber6 WIth the large driver area and sheer scale and abilities of the Legacy Valors and the Elrod speaker and interconnects that I utilize, I tend to hear in vivid detail whether an amp or source or source material is too much "this" or "too little that" in undeniable terms. This combination alone with the Valors in showing me recordings I know intimately in new and very detailed ways.
That stated, if the iV.4 Ultra with its ICEedge boards were conveying euphonic warmth or anything else out I would hear it; of that I'm virtually 100% certain. I've always sought amps that are extremely neutral and to the greatest extent possible, inject no sonic signature of their own on incoming waveform and only amplify the waveform. Edge NL12.1s and NL Ref amps many years ago did that in my systems and to an extent so did their Maker Audio NL14 brethren. The Esoteric Grandioso M1 monoblocks also to my ears fall into the category of amplification that I seek though I've not been fortunate enough to own them or their probable M1X successors (yet). The one exception I've owned might have been the Esoteric A-02 stereo amp that was warmer by a small amount and had a certain lushness to everything that it did however I would labels it's sound when amplifying various speakers I've owned included Legacy's but also a pair of TAD R1 Mk2s and rich/lush not overly warm.
I've heard other great SS amps (both Class A and AB) that do what I'm after however this is a very short and very expensive and backbreaking list (weight, size, etc...)
All that to pave the way toward saying the surprise with the i.V4 Ultra, at least here in my system cabled and powered the way I have it, is that the goals above are very much intact and the i.V4 Ultra delivers. Some days I look at the amp and cannot believe I found all that in a digital amp that weighs and cost far less than many contenders in other power/design classes.
It has excellent HF extension and rendering of those frequencies, transients, air, etc....what it sends to the 14" midrange on the Valors comes out detailed, rich, withOUT being bloated, overly emphasized mids, is lifelike and tonally accurate with great depth. It's hass is taut, extremely fast, accurate, impactful, all without being lean, again,...tonal accuracy is extremely accurate. Euphorically warm...."no" for sure.
I have what I would consider and others tell me is a bit of an insane and extensive CD, XRCD (various types) and SACD collection. There are many 'crucible recordings' that I both love and know incredibly well; since getting these speakers and amp I've spent months learning new details that have not come out of these discs and what I'm hearing uniformly across the board tells me this amp (and speakers) are a winning combination. They got installed a few weeks after hearing everything I ever wanted to compare them to at High End 2019 and Hifideluxe 2019...
Am I delighted this doesn't kill the wallet or the back? Sure am however I am making every effort to be objective. Is it perfect? No...not perfect but it's excellent to my listening preferences.
Have I heard equal and better sound quality both in digital as well as Class A or AB. Definitely yes....
Sound quality with this much raw power unleashed without grain or grunge sounding extremely non-digital amp-like? Only in A or AB costing $50K-$100K and more, that neither my wallet or my back can take for the foreseeable future.
From what you and others write there are other amps out there I'd also like to hear in this newly improved genre. Someone mentioned the AGD monoblocks on this or the other digital thread that's hopping recently; the AGDs sound amazing as did the Merrill Element 118 monos and a few others I heard in Munich and elsewhere,...I am sure the list will only keep growing.
Hope this helps...
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Congratulations on the Raven,....Dave and the crew at Raven Audio build some amazing amps. I've lusted after the Shaman Mk2 monoblocks more than once (and the Silhouette Mk2s). They make great sounding gear that gives the best of tubes,.... |
@viber6 Thanks pointer to Ric's site. A couple of links on it are non-functioning (including the link to the info where he actually talks about what he mods on the 1200 modules) however, I was able to follow the link to the page about the Rouge amps. Beyond binding post and one other mod there isn't much info there but honestly was not expecting a full core dump on all his "secret sauce" so to speak.
in a couple years when my warranty runs on out this newer amp I might try these mods as they are at the time however, I'd void warranty between now and then so it'll have to wait.
To a couple of other posts on this thread my reference is both great recorded music in a large number or genres out of an extensive collection as well as a lifetime of chasing live music from the player(s) on the streets here and various places I've traveled to jazz and other live clubs around the world, concert halls, cathedrals, etc....my passion is music of all kinds and I find it live whenever I can.
"I asked Ric to name one amp at any price that he has personally A/B'ed to be better in clarity than these IceEdge amps, and so far no word. I offer you the same challenge."
Well I won't be going out to buy amps just to A/B against what I have today; not practical or feasible and frankly a waste of money. If someone wants to send them, I'll be happy to test side by side :-).
All kidding aside, I can think of many reasons why Ric or someone in his position would not answer with 1 or more amps on that list. For myself, in recent years, the only amp I remember having this clarity, musical versatility, beauty and realism while not over-emphasizing, saturating and/or 'warming' any one frequency band are the Esoteric Grandioso M1 monoblocks that I've heard multiple times over recent years however, that is not an A/B.
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"Thanks for being totally honest. My audio experience started as a child 66 years ago as a 2 year old child. The classical music radio station was playing all the time. Audio was my first understood language, since I said my first English words at age 3. I started the violin in school at age 9, although as an amateur I didn't make my debut until age 40, playing solo in the Mendelssohn violin concerto. My audiophile life started when I was 25, so my audio qualifications are based on many years of familiarity with live sound. I dabbled in recording, experimenting with various top condenser mikes. Like you, I learn much from random audio experiences anywhere. Although my expertise is classical music, one of the best live experiences I had was in the summer of 2005 in New Orleans just before Katrina at the Preservation Hall. A small unamped jazz band with piano played in a small cave of a room with 3 rows of audience benches. The sound cracked and snapped excitement. On vacations, I enjoy street performers and the bells of street cars. Anyone who says that they want to smooth out the sharp, brilliant natural sounds of reality is missing the boat and defiling the concept of high fidelity.
You are smart to enjoy your stock Legacy IV as it is. It is possible it is better than the stock Rouge Audio Studio N-10DM because of more refined parts, etc. Possibly the most important mod that Ric does is increase the input impedance from 38K ohms to 150K ohms. I am not a circuit engineer, but I would make an analogy that just as with moving coil cartridges, 47K ohms reveals more HF than loading down a cartridge way below at 100-1000 ohms. Advocates of loading down the cartridge say that many MC cartridges have HF ringing, so the ringing is reduced by loading down. All I know is that in my experience using various MC cartridges with various phono preamps, I hate the rolled off duller sound when the loading down is used. Ric specifically states that increasing the input impedance to 150K ohms sounds "way better."
Agree--don't break your back and bank account by trying to find a heavy expensive amp that is better than the Legacy IV." @viber6 Great post,...thanks. Based on actual facts and experiences too,...somewhat of a rarity at times here on the 'gon I note. It's amazing to me that some are entirely comfortable to draw conclusions based upon conjecture, not actually putting their hands on an item and checking it out first hand but that's nothing new here. When time and finances allow again (just did a number of power cord, digital cable and one pair of analog XLR upgrades in the last few months so laying low and enjoying what I've got) I might actually pick up a couple other amps and given them a shot. The problem is that until you live with amps (or anything else) long enough to break them in thoroughly and really put them through their paces, I believe that you cannot make a qualified judgement on any piece of gear, cable or speaker. As an aside, I also grew up surrounded by music; big band, the jazz greats, classical etc,...in an environment with a father, aunt and grandparents that loved listening to recorded music and playing music with a father who loved to play live music immensely so grew up playing trumpet and piano just like he did (and loving every minute of it), big band, jazz ensemble, wind ensemble, orchestra some a lot of drum corp, and also played guitar. |
"A review of the Legacy i-v7 amp (the same as the I-v4 Ultra except all channels hooked up). When he listened in stereo, I believe, he listened to the front channels in mono block mode. Read the review.....he liked it....however, it did not do everything as well as his reference amp. https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/amplifier/power-amplifier/legacy-audio-i-v7-multichannel-amplifi..." An i.V7 amp is not the same as an i.V4 Ultra amp. They have same number of boards sure, but they are not configured the same. In the i.V4 Ultra, one board is used to drive one channel using the full capability of the board that is used to drive 2 separate channels in the 7-ch version (i.e. both sides of the board are used to drive a single channel with all other benefits noted on this and the other thread) plus (from what I'm told) various other improvements. If I misunderstood your comment or I don't know enough about the guts of electronics in this hobby I enjoy, that's cool, I'm open to learning. To the other part of your post,....send me an IM here with your contact info and we can get together by phone. I'd like to know the 13 improvements you propose and I'll find out what if anything has already been done by Legacy and assuming non-conflicting lists, I will give strong consideration to your mods either now if I can get assurance (from Legacy) that I'll keep my warranty, or on the day it runs out. Frankly if you have real ways to take this amp that impresses me daily better, that will take it and refine it even further,....no b.s., I would be open to considering them. |
To address the direct comment and its implications, yes, I am a fan and long term customer of Legacy Audio however I have also owned as well as heard and praised many other brands.
Brand affinity does not however mean that my ears don’t work well and I don’t know what I am hearing in the context of the system as a whole, cables utilized, etc after 12 months of nearly 100% daily listening.
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"No, you can clearly see the stereo IceEdge modules in ALL of Legacy’s amps. They do not use the AS1. Buying AS2s in bulk makes more sense, since they make a lot of multichannel amps."
Definitely agree with @ricevs here based upon all I've been told or seen with the cover off the amp; the modules in mine are definitely 1200AS2's used 1 per channel no a 4-channel amp.
Ricevs: Still keen to know (via IM or a website) what mods you offer as I was sincere in my prior post about investigating them and assuming they won't cross with anything already done in the amp design by Legacy or void warranty considering them seriously. |
"Sorry Zephyr, my comments were not meant as an insult or disrespect, and if you took it that way, I apologize.
I’m biased towards Wilson Audio speakers, and my feelings are the same as yours in regards to other manufactures. However, bias does play a big part in anyone’s purchasing decision." @golfnutz I did not take it in either of those ways at all so no worries and thank you for your post. I only took the implication that my positive comments on the amp after 12 months of hearing it and knowing exactly what it can do in the context of how I've implemented it including cables, speakers, etc...were drawn primarily from brand affinity. Believe me, brand affinity does not overrule what my ears are looking for to the extent that I would misinterpret or misreport the results just because the folks at Legacy take fantastic care of their customers in all the many years since my first purchase back in the early 2000s... |
"If you want to know anything about my mods then please call me. Any mod done to an IceEdge module will void all warranties with the manufacturer (Legacy, in your case) and with IcePower. This is one reason most would not be interested in mods to expensive gear, like the Legacy. The modded Rouge Design would cost you very little.....the IceEdge modules (modded or stock) are super reliable. All 12 of my modded amps from 2019 are still going strong. " @ricevs Thanks for the post. I have no idea how to contact you.....at least let me know how to look you up and find your phone# |
