zephyr24069,
How do you describe the tonality of your Legacy IV4 Ultra? I want neutrality and HF extension, and no euphonic warmth. Ric of tweak audio.com describes the Rouge Audio N-10DM as similar to the Legacy IV series. I emailed Francesco of Rouge who describes the IceEdge 1200 modules as more neutral than Hypex modules, with the aptly named Studio N-10DM as representing studio monitor type of sound. I own the Mytek Brooklyn Amp which uses a modified Pascal module. It is neutral with good HF detail.
Thanks for your impressions. |
zephyr24069,
Thanks for sharing your experience. I am about to order the Rouge Audio Studio N-10DM which is very similar to your Legacy IV, according to ricevs. Look at his site, tweakaudio.com, with its link to Rouge. Due to break in, I might even order a second unit, so I can compare to Ric's mods which he claims improve stock amps. Cost for the stock N-10DM only $1550. With Ric's mod, $2100. Pretty cheap interesting R&D for $3650 total. Poster tweak1 has Ric's EVS1200 which beats all amps he has had. Too bad his EVS1200 thread was deleted.
I suspect Ric is being modest in saying that the EVS1200 or other IceEdge 1200 models are merely excellent FOR THE MONEY. I had the Merrill Veritas and Element 114. They were warmer and tubelike compared to my Mytek Brooklyn Amp. They certainly would be preferred by certain listeners, but for crisp neutrality I look elsewhere. I asked Ric to name one amp at any price that he has personally A/B'ed to be better in clarity than these IceEdge amps, and so far no word. I offer you the same challenge.
Even Mike Fremer in his PS Audio M1200 (another IceEdge 1200) review noted that its bass was as tight and accurate as anything he has heard. He also said the HF were similarly detailed. My belief is that electrons don't have preferences, so if bass is tight/accurate then the rest of the range--the harmonic overtones--will be likewise. Many people like tight bass, but then some of them complain that accurate midrange/HF sounds wiry, sterile, dry, etc. They don't realize that live, unamplified instruments sound that way, but they are used to most speakers which are dull in comparison. It depends on perspective. If they think speakers are correct, then yes, live/unamped instruments and voices ARE dry and sterile. But if your frame of reference is live/unamped instruments and voices, then nearly all audio systems are dull and excessively warm/bloated.
Unfortunately, the high end audio business caters to the misconceptions of audiophiles who think that big money buys great sound. They spend more time at audio shows and dealers than experiencing live performances anywhere--large or small concert halls, outdoors on the street. Great times for those like we who know about great class D, and IceEdge 1200 in particular.
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Thanks tweak1 for your informative post. You prefer a little roundness in sound obtained from the WW optical cable. With the other cable, you described the EVS1200 as sounding "a bit hot" which is music to my ears. If its soundstage was not as big, that is expected from an accurate amp which focuses the instruments to sound thinner or more pinpoint. The opposite of this effect is most pronounced in euphonic tube amps which bloat all the sound, making images larger on a bloated soundstage. More subtlely, euphonic SS amps or other components inflate images slightly with the overlay of fuzzy warmth not present in the natural unamplified instruments.
Ric now writes that the Rouge Audio Studio N-10DM with his mods will yield the same sound as his original EVS1200, for roughly the same money, $2100, without the euphonic tube stage of the already excellent PS Audio M1200. Fabulous.
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zephyr24069,
Thanks for being totally honest. My audio experience started as a child 66 years ago as a 2 year old child. The classical music radio station was playing all the time. Audio was my first understood language, since I said my first English words at age 3. I started the violin in school at age 9, although as an amateur I didn't make my debut until age 40, playing solo in the Mendelssohn violin concerto. My audiophile life started when I was 25, so my audio qualifications are based on many years of familiarity with live sound. I dabbled in recording, experimenting with various top condenser mikes. Like you, I learn much from random audio experiences anywhere. Although my expertise is classical music, one of the best live experiences I had was in the summer of 2005 in New Orleans just before Katrina at the Preservation Hall. A small unamped jazz band with piano played in a small cave of a room with 3 rows of audience benches. The sound cracked and snapped excitement. On vacations, I enjoy street performers and the bells of street cars. Anyone who says that they want to smooth out the sharp, brilliant natural sounds of reality is missing the boat and defiling the concept of high fidelity.
You are smart to enjoy your stock Legacy IV as it is. It is possible it is better than the stock Rouge Audio Studio N-10DM because of more refined parts, etc. Possibly the most important mod that Ric does is increase the input impedance from 38K ohms to 150K ohms. I am not a circuit engineer, but I would make an analogy that just as with moving coil cartridges, 47K ohms reveals more HF than loading down a cartridge way below at 100-1000 ohms. Advocates of loading down the cartridge say that many MC cartridges have HF ringing, so the ringing is reduced by loading down. All I know is that in my experience using various MC cartridges with various phono preamps, I hate the rolled off duller sound when the loading down is used. Ric specifically states that increasing the input impedance to 150K ohms sounds "way better."
Agree--don't break your back and bank account by trying to find a heavy expensive amp that is better than the Legacy IV.
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dougeyjones,
Around 1995, I experimented with various mike preamps using a few SS condenser mikes. I made a 1 min recording of my violin part in the opening of the Mendelssohn violin concerto for each combination. I tried to standardize my playing of each take, although of course I can't be sure each take was identical in my playing. The famed B&K 4011 cardioid SS mike was flat in freq response, but it was smooth and rounded like tubes. I tried Shure, Schoeps, AKG small diaphragm cardioid mikes, but my favorite sound was the Neumann KM184 for its brilliance. I didn't even consider any tube mikes or tube mike preamps, because I had long outgrown my brief infatuation with romantic, euphonic tube sound. The industry standard mike preamp was the Millenia Media for accuracy. But the Bryston and John Hardy mike preamps were significantly more revealing.
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tweak1,
As I understood your earlier post, the WW optical cable seemed to be the factor rounding off the original "hot" sound of the EVS1200. Which cable produced the "hot" sound?
As you know, my limited experience of GaN with the Merrill Element 114 only, showed warmish sound. I am certainly open to hearing about other GaN amps, but so far, the IceEdge 1200 module seems to be SOTA. |
ricevs,
Thanks for posting the hometheaterhifi review of the IV7. His reference amps are the BAT and Pass, which are euphonic. All the musical and movie examples he cites show more clarity/detail from the IV7 than from his reference amps. At the end, he claims that the IV7 still has a tiny bit of treble grain. This shows a lack of understanding of HF detail. The real thing--live unamped instruments and voices--can be quite irritating heard at close range where microphones are placed even at only moderately loud SPL's. Many euphonically oriented listeners say that the unpleasant HF detail is treble grain. I interpret that review as 100% glowing enthusiasm, if you know how to review the reviewer. It is still useful, and I commend his descriptions of musical examples.
As for your one customer who preferred his $14K/pr tube amps to the EVS1200, you know what I would say to that. Everyone is entitled to his preference, but so far, I have not heard anyone who did an A/B of an IceEdge 1200 AS1 amp with any expensive "SOTA" amp say that such a "SOTA" amp had better clarity/information retrieval. The most informative person is zephyr24069 who didn't have the Esoteric Grandioso M1 mono blocks at the same time as his Legacy IV4 ultra, and made a judgment in retrospect that they were comparable. But he said that the Esoteric A-02 stereo was warmer. So I'll go on record here and say that nobody has yet heard any amp of better clarity/detail than the best implementations of IceEdge 1200 AS1. The highbrow types that own and dealers who sell, uber expensive amps would never submit to an A/B with a cheap great class D amp and report the results in an unbiased manner. Their egos and businesses are at stake. |
ricevs,
I'll quote your excerpt from that hometheaterhifi review.
"Soundstage width and depth presentation not quite as “big” as some other reference-level amplifiers."
This reviewer's reference amps are a BAT and Pass, both known to be tubelike. Tubes tend to have those soundstage characteristics. The few accurate amps that meet my standards for clarity/detail do NOT have these characteristics. In my experience, accurate SS amps have relatively thin and focused sound. I once had a stock tubed Theta preamp. When I got Roger Modjeski's highest grade tubes for this, the Theta took on more of a solid stage focus with cooler tonality. So I realized that both tubes and SS can be designed for accuracy/neutrality. Less accurate electronics usually exhibit greater soundstage width/depth. This reviewer LIKES the large soundstage width and exaggerated depth of tubelike SS amps. These amps are akin to taking a mediocre picture and magnifying it. You cannot increase resolution by magnifying the picture. If the picture is large enough to view, then magnifying it will make it more blurry and generally less satisfying. Some people LIKE bigness, bloat and blurry qualities. I still wonder if anyone can come up with any amp at any price that can better the CLARITY of select IceEdge 1200 AS1 amps.
Telling the truth and describing it is important, we agree. Can you describe tonally exactly what you find "blah and boring" about the stock IceEdge amps you heard in your own system? How are your modded amps different tonally?
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ricevs,
I read the 10audio review of the Mivera amp, a stereo stock IceEdge 1200 AS2. Pretty bad--rolled off HF with all the deadly consequences for detail, spatiality, etc. I'm sure the 1200 AS1 stock used for each channel would be better, but how much? Since you believe there is nothing special about Legacy IV2, is it just a stock 1200 AS1 with fancy casework, etc.? How do you explain the great reviews of the similar IV4 ultra, both from hometheaterhifi and our friend zephyr24069? |
Ricevs,
Thanks for your insights. Francesco at Rouge Audio says that their amps benefit from 500 hours of break in. PS Audio says 300. Have you taken a broken in stock Rouge Studio N-10DM and compared it to broken in stock PS Audio M1200 ? After your mods, what are the tonal differences between your modded amps to the stock versions, after break in? |
zephyr24069,
Reading the Legacy Audio site, it appears that the IV1 monos, IV2 dual monos, and IV4 ultra all use probably the 1200 AS1 module for each channel. They are all in the Master Series. The regular IV4 and IV7 are in the lower Performance Series, and probably use the 1200 AS2 which is a compromise in stereo and multichannel, since available power with all channels driven is reduced due to shared power supplies. So I suppose that the performance of the IV1, IV2 and IV4 ultra are nearly identical in each channel. Am I correct? Did you compare IV2 to IV4 ultra? It seems you have two Valor speakers, so I wonder why you got the IV4 ultra instead of IV2.
You might want to get the stock Rouge Studio N-10DM for $1550 delivered, which seems to be comparable to the Legacy IV2. See for yourself as you A/B with your IV4 ultra. I think I will get the Rouge, and then later consider ricevs' mods. |
