Is a separate phono pre really necessary?

     Don’t forget: whatever interconnects you use (and their impedance), will be in series between the cartridge and phono pre, as well.

     Were I in your shoes: the MCP-2, with it’s variable loading feature, would be my choice.

                       Especially since you’re using a Soundsmith cartridge.

     Though another, in here, may have already been down that path and can offer an opinion; you’ll only REALLY know if it’s, "worthwhile", to your ears, by trying it in your own system/listening environment.

I've had a few preamps with a built-in phono: Rogue Magnum 99, BAT VK-30, Plinius MP16-P, and Audible Illusions M3B.

All those built-in phonos were just OK, but not comparable to Allnic H1202 and Magi phonomenal in my system,

Magi is actually better than MM of Allnic.  Magi + Sound Tradition SUT is better than MC of Allnic.

My cartridges are Ortofon MC20 super, Ortogn SPUs, Denon DL103, AT150 mlx, ...

Not all $1000-$2000 phono pres are equal. Some may be just about the same as your built-in phono. Magi costs $1000, but I am not sure whether it is still being made.

For 2k the Gold Note PH-10 is an amazing, very flexible phono pre. Should work with almost any cartridge MM or MC because of its flexibility. Do a search you will find over a dozen reviews online. Sound wise I love it!

I prefer a tubed phono stage, so i opt for a separate. There are not too many tubed phono stages built into integrated amps. Most use the tubes in the line out sections only. 

While the phonostage in my Luxman L-509x is no slouch and is actually very good, my recently aquired Sutherland Insight LPS MM/MC phonostage preamplifier is a definite upgrade in terms of bass response, clarity, detail retrieval, etc. Might be a touch drier than the Luxman but the Sutherland's dynamics are impressive and sometimes startling.

The Phonostage is critical to the performance of a turntable. I recommend a tubed Phonostage. But also would wait until you can afford more than $2K maybe $3K. Then go for a used Phonostage… I recommend looking at Audio Reseach, Conrad Johnson, or VAC… these are amazingly great sounding and will last forever. Presto is a newer contender.

I went through increasingly expensive phonostages until moving into the $5K new range. There is a very significant benefit to getting into the $5-10K range and used you can do that for maybe half. Can’t just be any phono stage in this price range it needs to be carefully chosen for its sound.

@rodman99999 Sadly Rega's have built-in interconnects and I'm not sure I can find out the impedance. However, I'll certainly keep that in mind (it slipped my mind).

@rsf507 Thanks for the suggestion of the Gold Note PH-10.

@ghdprentice I'm also leaning that way as well. I would dearly love an Audio Research pre but size limitations prevent me from those brands.

 

 

@smanuel

You should also consider a Hagerman Trumpet MC. I have a Soundsmith MIMC, and tried it at 470 and 1,000 (Hagerman has a good range of loading options). I actually prefer 1,000 with the MIMC. On my rig it really allows the MIMC to ‘shine and sparkle’. 470 is just a tad too laid back, but really depends on your other equipment/speakers.

Just keep in mind Peter recommends a minimum of 470, but you can go higher. If I had a variable option on the Hagerman, my feeling is that around 800 might be perfect with the MIMC….on my setup.

I have had phono in a Shindo Aurieges and I thought it was excellent. I also am liking mine in the Audible Illusions M3B....I had both running thru a SUT so that may also make a difference of sorts....I havent had too much luck with outboard phono stages but I havent spent a lot of time or money with them...the best one I had was a Rogue Audio Magnum with blue cinemas, I believe it was and I felt the Shindo pre w/phono easily bested it.. 

@beatlebum That was another option I was considering. I was a bit hesitant because of the loading options are not as flexible as the amps I mention but Sutherland seems to consistently get good reviews which speaks well of the brand.

@bkeske I had the same feeling at 1k as well. But I've decided to use a SUT for greater dynamic punch but with the loss of that shine and sparkle you mentioned because of the need to use 47k with the SUT. This was why I'm tentatively leaning towards phono stages with adjustable loading (and maybe higher gain than what I currently have at +60db)

The wrinkle is the loading requirements for the zephyr mimic star: >= 470 ohms. This makes a lot of phone preamps really not suitable for this cartridge

You can make cartridge loading plug with desired resistance for your phono stage.

https://www.hifisystemcomponents.com/forum/cartridge-loading-plugs_topic1246.html

@smanuel 

I’ve settled at 1,000 and 60db on my Hagerman. I also have 64 & 68 available (nice to have for lower output carts), but the MIMC sounds pretty darn good at 60. 

Get a Chinook. You can run just about any cart you want. 

Think I did something wrong so I will try again!

 

 

I had a Krell KPA and when I got my Ayre k1xe the built in phono stage was much better to my ears. A few years later a friend gave me an audio research reference phono stage. Which In my opinion killed the built in phono stage of the Ayre. So my experience the seperate phono stage can be better or worse. Let your ears guide you in your decision. 

 

Regards

@smanuel 

PS Audio Stellar phono preamp. Custom setting allows easy setting to exactly 470 ohms or whatever you need up to 1000 ohms. No brainer to me. BTW, Michael Fremer feels the same about it.

I looked up your Preamp review on Absolute Sound.

Great collection of remote controlled features, including balance in very small steps.

Take any reviewer as you will, he gave High praise, except the phono stage, excerpt:

"Turning to the phonostage performance, overall imaging was stable and transients retained their spontaneity. There was solid underlying continuousness across the soundstage, as well. However, I heard a lighter energy and cooler cast in familiar recordings. The sound wasn’t quite as richly varnished compared with other sources I’d input through the RP-5. One instance would be the new Impex LP remastering of Jennifer Warnes’ Famous Blue Raincoat. During “Song For Bernadette,” Warnes’ vocals seemed a little less rich and colorful, and the airy buoyancy of her head-tone was a dash drier. I have to confess the phonostage was a little bit disappointing given the overwhelmingly positive nature of the experience up until that point. However, to be fair, I was running the phono at maximum gain for the benefit of the Palo Santos Celebration moving coil (0.5mV), and though it was reasonably quiet for this class the RP-5 phono section couldn’t match the seriously quiet Parasound JC3+, proving once again that I’m spoiled, and that it’s hard to beat a premium outboard phonostage for isolation. For a built-in phono with this level of optimization, it still represents good value."

 

...................................................

1st: are you certain you have the 3 configurable internal settings correct for your cartridge? Your preamp has Separate internal switches for capacitance; resistance; gain settings, that’s awesome, IF correctly set.

2nd: currently, are your LP’s involving, better than CD or streaming, .? If yes, stay happy. If not, then yes, a separate phono stage is needed, not a SUT, a full phono stage to go thru a line level input.

I would advise having full return option and try/return/keep a separate one until you find one you love. It ain’t easy.

 

I agree with @retiredfarmer

When I had a Schiit Freya+ I needed a separate phono stage and bought a Tavish Adagio. It sounded great with my VPI table. Once I upgraded to my current McIntosh preamp the built in phono stage sounded better to me so I sold the Tavish.

I would buy your separate phono stage and A/B test it against your built-in phono stage over a few sessions. Then as others have suggested, let your ears decide. Happy listening!

If you are looking in the 2000.00 price range, consider the SPL Phonos. It has plenty of loading options for MC cartridges and capacitance settings for MM. Plenty of gain for even the lowest output. This is a fine sounding phono preamp IMHO.

 

+1 for the SPL Phonos. A superb phono preamp that is dead quiet and very dynamic.

Another vote for the Hagerman Trumpet MC. In the past, I've had noise and hum driving MC carts at 60db...even with an outboard linear power supply. The Hagerman Trumpet MC is quiet. I recently tried an AT33PTGII at 68db gain. Quiet...and very punchy. I now have dialed it back an run it at 64db. One of the best things is the front panel-mounted control knobs for load and gain. This is so important to go back and forth between settings to hear what works best. I'm hearing that the Hagerman is embarrassing near to the Herron VTPH-2A at less than half the price. It's a very organic, full, tubey presentation with stock tubes and responds well to tube rolling to tailor the sound to your needs.

Sutherland 20 20 is awesome and has flexible loading.  

Of more importance is your VTA using the Soundsmith on the Rega arm.  You should consider adding shims to raise the tonearm 3mm or so, rega carts are only 14mm tall.  

add shims so that the top of the headshell is perfectly level with the platter. 

@elliottbnewcombjr The review you linked to was one reason why I'm going down this path. NG impression of the RP-5 phono stage has been mine as well. I thought a SUT would help; it has but at the cost that was pointed out in the review (and the loss of shine and sparkle that @bkeske mentioned).

@avanti1960 The Sutherland 20 20 is growing on me (it's physical size would be a great benefit given my limited rake space). Regarding shimming: I've avoided that for some time now giving the hassle of doing it. However, I'm currently using a 3mm Funk Firm Acromat and I'm pretty sure this is throwing off the SRA. And besides, I purchased the Grovetracer counter weight specifically for shimming I have no reason not to.

Or buy a Linn. 

One of the Primary reasons to use a SUT is to maintain the sound characteristic of your existing MM Phono Stage. I love my McIntosh mx110z's MM phono stage, thus I went for a SUT for my MC cartridge, boost enough, then into/thru the mx110z's MM Phono EQ, maintaining it's tube sound characteristics.

If you do not like the sound of a phono stage, like I disliked my McIntosh SS C28 Preamp's phono, then it is better to go to a separate phono stage up to line level, use the preamp for volume/balance/tone/mode as needed.

I actually found a $14. MM Phono that sounded darn good from Pyle. And, before I gave it to a friend, I used the optional built-in phono eq inside the AT120 tt over the McIntosh C28.

PASS is a desireable feature on a SUT so you can change headshells or different tonearms from MC gain to MM PASS, same wires to the preamp.

+1 @beatlebum Had a perfectly good phono stage on my Plinius integrated that was adjustable from MM to MC, but when I went to the Sutherland Insight (and then added the LPS after getting a nice deal on a used one) the improvement was immediate and noticeable. 20/20 is great too, but a good bit more if you go for the LPS, which on that model is in an external box. Is it worth it? My dealer told me I would be thrilled with either one, so I kept the difference, but coming to think of it, there were no used 20/20s out there, so it made my decision easier, saving about 50%, $1000. And Ron Sutherland is a great guy - guided me through the LPS upgrade process himself on the Insight.

Is the transformer you are using made specifically for this cartridge?  If so, then you may receive little benefit from the additon of a phono state, which in fact will create redundancy with the stage already in the rogue.   Make sure you have the right loading, right cables, right stylus setup, and all before you spend money on a separate phono preamp.  If the Roque's phono section is good, then at most you should be looking to add a headamp, not a full phono preamp.  

If you insist on having a separate preamp, perhaps you should look at Rogue's own, which has variable loading options including a custom setting if I recall correctly.

I’m going to say that the designer of a built-in phono stage has the goal of producing an input that the broadest range of customers will find “pleasant.” The phono stage in my Rogue Sphinx is very pleasant. When I started looking for a separate, I started asking what I wanted to hear. It’s a pretty fine line and so subjective. I ended up happy with the PS Audio Stellar. They occasionally have sales of about 30% off and their trade-ins are generous.

I had the RP-5 and used its internal phono stage with Hana EL cartridge. I was not impressed. I switched to MoFi UltraPhono and it was slightly better but still not what I was looking for (exciting sound but kind of flat in the soundstage department) so I returned it and bought a Sutherland KC Vibe MkIi. Very happy with it. The Hana cartridge calls for >400ohn loading and the Sutherland is perfect at 475. A very notable step up from what Rogue includes in the RP-5  

The Vibe MkII loading options include 100, 200, 475, 1k or 47kOhms. 
It’s quiet, resolving and very natural sounding. Build quality is top notch.  
I wouldn’t hesitate to recommend it. 

You can’t go wrong with Sutherland. I started with his KC vibe, then the 20/20 LPS and then the Duo, each incrementally lowering the noise floor increasing the dynamics. 

@viridian Yeah, you’re probably correct; Dr. Feickert, Linn, SOTA, P8/P10 are all on my wish list. However my current budget precludes a such an upgrade at the moment. But that is why I’m asking about a separate phono stage.

@elliottbnewcombjr Do I like my MM phono stage sound? Not sure. Both sound fine but a bit flat to my ears. Like that AS review you quoted, I’m using the highest gain setting and that could be the issue. Or it could be that I’m running the signal through a SUT and this is loading the cart at the minimum impedance setting. But either way I feel that a separate phono stage might be beneficial. And the extra gain would be welcome as well.

@audphile1 @aj523 @sokogear Thanks for your impressions of Sutherland gear. I’m getting the sense that Sutherland equipment is really good for the price.

@jfuquay "Pleasant"-- that is *exactly* what the RP-5 phono stage sounds/feels to me. It really doesn’t wow me much. And considering I have a pretty damn good cart I feel this might be a limiting part of my system.

@smanuel 

Np. And in terms of customer service, the founder /owner Logan Sutherland (former co-founder of Martin Logan) is always only a cell phone call away which is a nice thing.

Depends on your gear. I had a SS phono stage in a Carver Ultimate receiver that sold for $5k that sounded pretty good! My PS Audio phono pre was a bit better but not that much better. To spend $2k for a separate phono pre I’d say only if your budget will allow it.

any phono eq that takes low output mc, you are running thru it's internal SUT anyway. 

my SUT has 3 tonearm inputs, PASS for MM, and 4 optional transformer windings: 4 optional x factors and the 'resultant' impedance (determined by x factor squared) that will be 'shown' to a MM phono input.

Fidelity Research FR-4

https://www.vinylengine.com/library/fidelity-research/frt-4.shtml

I go to my beloved Tube Phono MM input. in my mx110z.

 

You might consider a tube preamp for everything, including at least MM Phono. then use an external SUT, or a Tube Phono EQ for both MC and MM with many configurations to Line Level in your amp.

ANYTHING involving Phono, have return option, it's tricky what works for you.

Well I ask, do you like  integrated amps or separate?  One power amp, biamp or triamp.  One driver or three. You get the idea

@samuel I would also consider upgrading to the P8 and keep your current cartridge - the improved table and tone arm will be significant.  Then you can upgrade the cartridge and phono stage in the future.