Probably wrong forum to ask about vintage vs. new.
Showing 12 responses by chakster
all LP Gear styli are fake, I like Pickering XSV/5000 better than my Grado Signature XTZ. Honestly I have no idea why anyone should even think about moden MM, the sound of top Pickering is oustanding, silky smooth, this is one of the most involving sounding MMs. The XSV/3000 is not the top of the line, but it’s about $300 cartridge and for $300 it’s impossible to find anything better (imo). For another $300-400 original NOS Stereohedron stylus is nice (not LP Gear’s fake). I mever tried D4000 stylus on XSV/3000 cartride, must be compatible, this is next stylus after D3000. I believe D5000 is Stereohedron mk2 profile (even better). In my system this cart is competing with $2000 LOMC cartridges and I love it. You guys in the States should be able to find a deadstock full of Pickering or Stanton cartridges and styli at some old shops. I managed to buy D3000 and D4000 NOS and I’m happy to buy more if possible. |
Second generation of Parabolic stylus profile from Pickering (late 80’s) is great. This is XSV/4000 with white D4000 stylus (it can be also black) shipped to another audiogon member from New York, USA. In general, the second generation parabolics contact the groove with a sharper radius. Using the Stereohedrons as examples, the original Stereohedron’s tracing radius is .3 mils; the Stereohedron II’s tracing radius is .2 mils. The Stereohedron II’s bearing radius is gentler and taller, distributing the tracking force over a wider area, thus compensating groove wear for the narrower contact points. Great cartridge if you can buy it with genuine Stereohedron stylus! Always buy original styli for your Pickering, stay away from the cheap third-party styli, genuine Pickering Stereohedron profile is rare and expensive, but well worth its price, the sound quality is fantastic. Some manufacturers have used their own names for the advanced stylus profile shapes ("parabolics"). For example, Shure used the words "Hyper-Elliptical" (and more); Stanton/Pickering had "Stereohedron" and "Stereohedron II." (Trademarks). Some of these shapes were distinctly proprietary and patented (as were the Stantons). Van den Hul’s and Shibata’s, of course, were/are proprietary. There are more. The Exclusive Stereohedron Tip and the new XSV samarium cobalt magnet accounts for an extremely high output with the smallest effective tip mass. The Stereohedron tip design is the result of long research in extended frequency response for tracing of high frequency modulations. It’s not necessary to buy a very expensive cartridge designed today if we have vintage MM like Pickering XSV-4000 available in excellent condition. The Stereohedron has a large bearing surface which is distributed over a large portion of the modulated groove, and at the stated optimum tracking force of 1.2 grams, the actual force per unit area is, of course, much less and should significantly contribute to the longevity of recordings. KAB posted Stanton/Pickering cartridge-stylus compatibility chart HERE The XSV/3000 by Pickering is equal to the Stanton 881s (in the down right corner in this catalog), it was expensive cartridge in the 70’s if you will read price tag. No matter that people are telling about technical aspects, the original Stanton (881, 981 or their low impedance versions) or Pickering (3000, 4000, 5000 or their low impedance versions like 4500 & 7500) from the top echelon are absolutely amazing cartridges. The 881 and 3000 are the cheapest of them, still very nice, but not as good as the higher models.Using fake stylus with those great carts is a risk to ruin the original sound! |
LP GEAR styli are fake, they have no rights for use Stanton or Pickering trademark logo. Their styli are blank. Those are fake and has absolutely nothing to do with Stanton or Pickering company at their hey day under Walter O. Stanton leadership who sold his company in the 90’s and since that time Stanton or Pickering never made any Hi-Fi cartridge! Under the New ownerships (Stanton Group) manufacturing ONLY cheap DJ cartridges, turntables etc. Here is a history lesson: ** Mr. Pickering was one of the founders of the Audio Engineering Society in 1948, was George Szell’s recording consultant, researched violin acoustics and constructed more than fifty vioins and violas and was active in the Violin Society of America. He also worked on ultrasound eye imaging with the technique’s inventor. After the war ended in 1945, Pickering met an engineer who said he could sell all of the pickups he could build. So with some friends he went into business in Oceanside, Long Island and sure enough as many as he could build were quickly sold at first only to radio stations. But by 1947 the demand from high-fidelity fanatics was strong enough for what’s now called a ‘cartridge’ and Pickering & Company was formed to meet the new hobby’s demands. By the mid 1950s, the company employed more than 150 people at its Plainview, Long Island headquarters. Norman C. Pickering, an engineer, inventor and musician whose pursuit of audio clarity and beauty helped make phonograph records and musical instruments sound better , died in East Hampton, N.Y. He was 99. ** Walter O Stanton. A pioneer in the audio field, Stanton was responsible for many of the early patents in phono cartridge and styli design and electrostatic speakers, as well as other electro mechanical items. He was one of the early leaders in the audio industry and served as president of both the Institute of Hi Fidelity and the Audio Engineering Society (AES). One of the original owners of Pickering & Company, started in 1947, he later established Stanton Magnetics Inc in 1961. He was the chairman and president of both Pickering & Co and Stanton Magnetics Inc until 1998. Under his leadership, the various companies developed leading products in the audio, aerospace, military and communications fields with factories in Plainview, New York and West Palm Beach, Florida. Walter O. Stanton, the inventor of an easily replaceable phonograph stylus that was crucial to creating a consumer market for audio equipment, died in Palm Beach Gardens, FL. He was 86. |
Dear Chakster, I think you are getting a bit hysterical for nothing. What I am quibbling with is your use of the word “fake”. LP gear do not say that they are selling original Pickering or Stanton stylus assemblies. I think I use this word correct. If you understand they are not selling GENUINE replacement other people have no clue what they are selling (and they sell many fake styli for many brands). I don’t care what type of stylus profile they are using (this is not the question here). Even if it’s aluminum cantilever it’s different from the original, not to mention SAMARIUM COBALT MAGNET used in the original Stanton/Pickering stylus.
If one can’t source the original it’s better to stay away from any vintage cartridges, because those fake styli is a huge compromise, it can be OK for some cheap cartridges, but for top of the line cartridges it’s not even close. Even JICO SAS is not better than some of the original styli which makes those vintage MM so special. I lived through the history of Pickering and Stanton cartridges, and I even lived in New York City, and I have even been on Long Island many times. So I am well aware of the history. That has nothing to do with the present situation for owners of Pickering and Stanton cartridges. Never been to United Stated, but in present situation (living in Russia) I have all the original styli, not only for Pickering and Stanton, but for many rare MM cartridges. If I am able to find them NOS living almost in the Arctic Circle then why do you always think that even living in the USA people can’t find them (it’s your local brand) and need those fake LP Gear styli ? Stanton and Pickering are not so rare and not so expensive like some other Japanese cartridges from the same era for example. In my opinion it’s important to support enthusiasm, but in your posts (almost in every post about vintage carts) I read so much pessimism, that’s not good @lewm P.S. for MM cartridges retipping, refurbishing, fake styli ... are not good until we can find the original ! And we CAN, internet is great for searching. |
There are many superb cartridges with Shibata stylus, first is Victor X1II which is another amazing MM (but definitely more expensive than Stanton/Pickering). Looking for best NOS carts from the past (collecting them) is a part of the hobby, it’s fun, there at at least 10 best MM that can compete with everything (no matte new, old, mm, mi or mc). Top models from Stanton, Victor, Audio-Technica, Pickering, Grace, Pioneer... just to name some brands from the past, there are more. Shibata was a stylus originally designed by one of JVC’s employee’s (Norio Shibata), to enable better tracing of the high frequencies which their CD-4 quadraphonic system records needed. JVC were the designer of CD-4, which was one of a number of competing quadraphonic (4 channel) systems back in the 70’s, and because it needed a frequency response to 50 kHz, they had to design a new stylus to enable that. Other versions similar to the Shibata stylus began to be made, such as Ogura and Van den Hul, but with slight differences in shape so as not to infringe the Shibata patent. |
It would appear that the only thing wrong with LP Gear’s replacement styli is that they are not the originals and may even surpass the original using a better stylus and modern production methods. The Stereohedron stylus was nothing but a "hyperelliptical" stylus. Yes, all problems solved by LP GEAR, just buy their $79 fake Stanton CS-100 stylus instead of $450 original and be happy. You must be proud, because hundreds of Stanton owners worldwide are slower than you, maybe not so smart, they just don’t know there are $75 stylus made with modern technologies and much better than Walter O. Stanton top of the line design from the golden age of analog. It’s so silly that some people don’t know that everything NEW is always better, especially when it comes to vinyl in 2021. Stereohedron is nothing compared to LP GEAR, you’re so right. Thank you for clarification. Your opinion is very important. As a big fan of ClearAudio and Goldring MM cartridges I hope you tried all Stanton and Pickering top models with original styli and compared them to Jico, LP Gear and others. Now let me tell you this: Do you know that original SC-100 W.O.S. cantilever is Red Sapphire coated, you will not find anything like that today, the $79 LP Gear is way different (look at the rating on their site). Sadly it’s not so popular as you expected, even if it’s new (pretending to be better as you think). Genuine CS-100 stylus is Stereohedron mk II (second generation of Parabolic profiles). There are first and second generation of Stereohedron if you don’t know. They are different! Do you know what is Samarium Cobalt magnet and why this type of magnet has been chosen. You mentioned "Hyperelliptical", but is just name, it’s a word, you’d better provide some data. All those styli are parabolic type, so what? Nothing changed much since Micro Ridge and it’s an old profile even if you like different name for same profile! Paratrace is the closest modern profile to Stereohedron. The reason why Stanton owners service their cartridge in UK (not at Soundsmith or whatever). I believe you know who manufacturer Stereohedron and where. Stanton made so many different models of cartridges to release their best stuff like 981 and CS-100 series (and low impedance versions). These are the most expensive Stanton cartridges and styli, but there are tons of different Stanton styli for 10 times cheaper prices in their vintage catalog (you can check here). P.S. I stopped to read post from some members who contradict to themselves, probably it’s because of the age, but I remember well their posts from 5-10 years ago on the same forum. If you want your cartridge to perform as expected you can only buy an original (MM or MC) and if you want to step into unknown area then you can make your Frankenstein and tell everybody it’s equal or even better than the original. Unfortunately, you can’t just clone the original. |
Now, I used very nonspecific terms like, "appear" and "may" Because I do not have these cartridges now and have never used an LP Gear product. I can not say what the real truth behind all this is. But, I have had several Pickering and Stanton products in the past and have always viewed my styli under magnification. I can say for an absolute fact that styli from Clearaudio, Soundsmith, Grado, Koetsu, Ortofon and Lyra are all much cleaner and better cut and mounted than the styli in those older cartridges. I remember returning two top of the line Pickerings because of cantilevers headed in the wrong direction. It would not be hard for a modern manufacturer to make better stylus replacements for these vintage cartridges. Using modern profiles is an added benefit. They are not better cut than any of the old styli from the same manufacturers like Ogura or Namiki, all those most complicated profiules invented decades ago. Your Clear Audio motor made by Audio-Technica in Japan (and that a cheap motor, but cartridge retail is very expensive). Unprotected cantilever is awful solution, it's easy to break accidentally. Those type of cartridge must be avoided for practical reason (any mistake with cost a lot! ). If it's "better" for you it's fine, but for me new $4000 MC cartridge is not better than NOS $700 Stanton MM. They are compared NOW in my listening room, not 100 years ago in your childhood. Pickering XSV/5000 or Stanton CS-100 WOS are much better cartridges than Grado Signature model like XTZ. Boron Rod cantilevers and Advanced parabolic Styli on most of the modern cartridges looks identical to this combo from the mid 80's. No difference. I bought many Stanton and Pickering in the past 5 years, never seen any sample with bent cantilever, I also prefer to buy NOS. This is XSV/4000 cantilever. If I remember correct your Koetsu is the entry level Black model. At the moment in my system I have Miyabi MCA by Takeda-San, Fidelity Research FR-7fz by Ikeda-San, and Pickering XSV/5000 by Walter Stanton (replaced Joe Grado Signature XTZ). Pickering XSV/5000 is a killer MM cartridge for funny price compared to the rest of MC I'm using in my system now. It's very important to compare cartridges NOW, but you guys always referring to your faulty memories from the 70's, 80's. How can you even remember the sound of a cartridge you tried about 40 years ago ?? |
In my opinion the closest to the sweet sound of the best Stanton & Pickering cartridges is Pioneer PC-1000 mkII with Beryllium cantilever. |
As a proud owner of Pickering XSV/3000, 3000SP, 4000, 5000; XLZ/4500, 7500 ... I must admit those are fantastic MM cartridges. Top models have the Stereohedron mkII profile, lower models have first generation of Stereohedron profile. Natural progression for any Pickering owner is next Pickering model (if there are any). The 5000 and 7500 series are top of the line models. *** Below is the information from Pickering catalog: “The culmination of 30 years of Audio Engineering leadership - the new Stereohedron XSV/5000. The best for both worlds. One of the most dramatic developments of cartridge performance was the introduction of the Pickering XSV/3000. It offered the consumer a first generation of cartridges, combining both high tracking ability and superb frequency response. It utilized a new concept in stylus design - Stereohedron, coupled with an exotic samarium cobalt moving magnet. Now Pickering offers a top-of-the-line Stereohedron cartridge, the XSV/5000. Combining features of both the XSV/3000 and the XSV/4000. It allows a frequency response out to 50,000 Hz. The Exclusive Stereohedron Tip, The new XSV samarium cobalt magnet accounts for an extremely high output with the smallest effective tip mass. The Stereohedron tip design is the result of long research in extended frequency response for tracing of high frequency modulations. The patented Dustamatic brush and stylus work hand in hand with the rest of the cartridge assembly to reproduce with superb fidelity all frequencies contained in today’s recordings. Pickering is proud to offer the XSV/5000 as the best effort yet in over 30 years of cartridge development. A fresh new breakthrough in cartridge development designed specifically as an answer for the low impedance moving coil cartridge - XLZ/7500S The advantages of the XLZ/7500S are that it offers characteristics exceeding even the best of moving coil cartridges. Features such as an openness of sound and extremely fast risetime, less than 10µ seconds, to provide a new crispness in sound reproduction. At the same time, the XLZ/7500S provides these features without any of the disadvantages of ringing, undesirable spurious harmonics which are often characterizations of moving coil pickups. The above advantages provide a new sound experience while utilizing the proven advantages of the Stereohedron stylus, a samarium cobalt assembly, a patented Pickering Dustamatic brush, with replaceable stylus, along with low dynamic tip mass with very high compliance for superb tracking. So, for those who prefer the sound characteristics attributed to moving coil cartridges, but insist on the reliability, stability and convenience of moving magnet design, Pickering presents its XLZ/7500S. THE SOURCE OF PERFECTION PICKERING from Pickering Enter No. 30 on Reader Service Card "for those who can hear the difference" For further information on the XSV/5000 and the XLZ/7500S write to Pickering Inc., Sunnyside Blvd., Plainview, N.Y.” |