Prof, no offense but you sound like the guy in the cave trying to make sense of shadows on the wall. Without parsing the paragraphs one by one, which I actually don’t have time for, let me just say the entire last post of yours was a very weird combination of the very obvious with wild ass guesses. It’s so obvious you’re a talker, not a walker. It’s just so much what about this?, what about that? You’ve perhaps been on the forums too long. Time to get back in the laboratory.
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analoglubr
I get get a chuckle out of Geoff's approach. If it was a double blind test with everything controlled but the participant didn't hear a difference, we don't accept that result. But if somebody switches their wires willy-nilly and here's a night and day improvement, by golly we'll take that answer!
>>>You obviously can’t can’t read.
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jssmith
Thank you, prof. As a past participant in some eye-opening blind tests, when it comes to anything except speakers I always ignore subjective views and my viewpoint is "if you didn’t hear it blind, you didn’t hear it." Your last sentence is the logic I’ve always tried to express, but not as concisely. I hope you don’t mind if I steal it.
(... if you think tests in which efforts to really control and account for known variables are unreliable...what in the world make you think tests with fewer controls, which allow for all sort of known bias effects, are MORE reliable????)
>>>>I don’t think anyone actually made that particular argument. Which would make it a Strawman argument. The general argument against blind tests is pretty much the same as for any test - If a test results are negative no conclusions can be drawn. In other words, a test of a device or a comparison of two cables or whatever by someone in a given system is only One Data Point. As other tests are performed then other data points will appear, perhaps conclusions can be drawn then, with more data points.
Cables tests are particularly prone to error due to directionality of the cables, using new cables for the test, not allowing the cables to “settle”after changing them. For example. A clever cable manufacturer - if he was aware of cable directionality and break-in - could easily rig the test by using a brand new OEM cable or whatever connected in the wrong direction for the comparison. Follow?
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When you say mastersound do you mean MasterBuild?
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The Von Schweikert ULTRA speaker internal wiring upgrades come in between $15K and $39K depending on speaker. Which if I can be so bold blows your theory clean out of the water.
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If memory serves AQ cables have arrows pointing from source to destination, maybe arrows on the jacket and connector. If all else fails just reverse the cables, assuming for interconnects they are connected identically, as opposed to one correct the other incorrect, sometimes interconnects are color coded for just that reason. Then see which way is better.
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The old AQ Truth are great cables, in truth. I wish they still made them. If I recall correctly even back then AQ controlled them for directionality. I had copper and silver versions of AQ Truth. Other than keeping connections nice and bright the AQ Truth should be good to go. Electrons don’t seem to get tired. There is no Geritol for electrons even if they did.
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That’s weird. I was sure she was talking about me. Whew! What a relief to find out it was prof.
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You know, it’s nice to be skeptical. I am a very big skeptic. But the difference, I think, between me and a lot of skeptics, especially self styled skeptics, is that eventually I get down to business and try to figure out what the ding dong is going on myself. After all, it doesn’t make sense to be so overly skeptical of an idea, a device, a product, a phenomenon forever or rely on others to figure it out. Or perhaps not care if the issue ever gets settled as that would end the debate and spoil the party. 🍻
Skepticism is a human trait, not a lifetime occupation. At some point don’t you have to roll up your sleeves and take matters into your own hands and try to get to the bottom of things? You can’t leave it to others to settle whatever beef 🍔 you may have. This is the difference between skeptics who talk a good game, who know the Skeptic’s Handbook inside out, and skeptics who are curious enough to take the bull by the horns. 🐃
I am rather suspicious, naturally, of any self-proclaimed skeptic who maintains that audiophiles are deluded or that products are hyped. This “Uber Skepticism” is ill conceived and unwarranted, in my opinion. This is not evidence of a questioning mind so much as someone who just enjoys asking a lot of questions. At some point it’s probably time to fish or cut bait. 🦈
your friend and humble skeptic |
The Cable Cooker has been around like forever and is a great iconic product. The dude that makes them even did some headphone cables gratis as a special favor. I also used to have a M.O.B.I.E. (Maximum Overdrive Burn In Electronics or whatever) burn-in device I got from the dude that used to show with John Curl and Bob Crump at CES waaay back when. The weird thing, as I understand it, cables need to be re-broken in every so often. Can you believe it?
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unreceivedogma
Btw, I have an engineering buddy who has 6 Grammy awards for his engineering work for Deutsche Grammophon. He built his own recording studio, speakers, etc and designed his own editing software. And he can play world class violin. The guy is a genius. His opinion: Are there differences? Yes. Are they meaningful? Don’t waste your money.
Deutsche Grammophon used to be a real contender. So did the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra. They were unbeatable But that was a long time ago. This is now. Things change. 🤡 Other than that, partner, thanks for the excellent example of an Appeal to Authority.
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unreceivedogma
Geoffkait I’ll never catch up to you. You must not have to work for a living. I’m busy with a job that’s trying to make an impact on the world and that takes up 12 hours of almost every day.
I just assumed you worked for Target or Chipotle. I hope they pay you overtime. OMG, are you doing all this posting from work?! Whoa!
Ciao!
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I was going to guess a lot older.
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unreceivedogma sure is barking a lot for a low poster. Is there a full moon? By the way isn’t unreceiveddogma misspelled?
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Sorry guys, when I use the word directional I’m referring to unshielded cables, interconnects, power cords, hdmi cables, etc. The shielding is a separate issue.
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You’re either on the bus or off the bus. 🚌
In for a penny, in for a pound. |
elizabeth
As for the Hurricane. I do not want to spend $11,000 to buy one 3 meter powercord, only to have it still be a meter short. Maybe I could special order a 4 meter Hurricane. for like $15000?
I think my powercords are gonna have to be good enough as is. But I thought about it. and tried some. (though clearly the new PC had no break in time. so...... Who cares. yawn.
Lizzie, your calculator is on the fritz. Or your glasses need replacing. Those prices are not even close for the Hurricane. This is what happens when you get all excepted and jump to conclusions. Besides, if you need a 3 meter power cord you should give some consideration to rearranging things so a one meter Hurricane or whatever will do. I know, that requires effort.
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As fate would have it I’m listening to a Panasonic portable CD player as we speak. I switched out the Sony just last week. Panasonic, Made in Japan. I’m a big fan of Japanese made stuff. I have to say the Panasonic sounds great. I have a bunch of Walkmans. I would be willing to part with one for cost of shipping.
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Got you beat, uberwultz, I have a $10 portable CD player and don’t have ANY interconnects. 10,000 is gonna be sweet! 🍭 |
I was wondering, what’s gotten into you lately. 🤡
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Never up, never in. For the record, I always thought you worked at Target. 🎯 |
Did somebody just say blind test? That’s so funny! 😀
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I’m pretty sure it’s a golfer’s expression but I like to use it in certain contexts including discussions in which folks sit on the sidelines and pontificate or make odd observations to boost their post count, one assumes. Never up, never in - If you never try you’ll never succeed at whatever it is. No offense to you personally. 😀
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analogluvr
@prof you are making way too much sense for this thread. They can argue that your ears are made of cloth and you can argue that their brains are made of cotton balls.
And yes GEoff is the master at manipulative misdirection and TEO just spouts nonsense 95% of the time.
Over and out.
>>>>Yes, it’s true I’m the master at manipulative misdirection. I’m also the master of manipulative direction. But prof is the master debater. He’s sooo logical. He can be very convincing if you don’t watch closely. He will win by simply wearing you out. Even if he can’t hear vibration isolation or expensive power cords. You know what they say, never up, never in.
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Lizzie, when you get serious about a power cord get the Audioquest Hurricane. There is no substitute. Thank me later.
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Just to finish the thought, Lizzie, the others wind up with Pangea. 😀 |
Some people are Car People. Other people are Focused on sound. Let’s call them Sound People. Some people are focused on circuits, some are focused on sound. You cannot serve two masters.
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prof wrote,
“Something to ponder:
No matter how good the cable is that you use, you are never hearing anything "better" than the performance of the cables used in the recording.
And virtually none of the cables, especially for many of the most heralded audiophile classics, were "boutique" cables of the sort we see now. No cryogenic freezing, no cable risers, no specialized proprietary extruding techniques, no 99.99 percent oxygen free copper, no science-fiction-levels low electrical reactance...and all the other marketing. You are hearing the quality of the most basic cable the musical signals ever passed through on the way to being recorded (and mixed, and mastered, etc).”
>>>>>Wow! Thanks for the huge Strawman argument, professor! Nobody said you can do better than the sound of the original recording. The entire problem for the audiophile is to maximize the home playback system. Obviously nobody can go back in time (except for Marty McFly and Superman) and change something that already happened. You can’t go back in time and get better engineers, better microphones, a better venue, better cables, apply less compression during mastering, etc. But the whole point of the audio hobby is to improve what you can. Fortunately there’s lots that need improving.
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Feynman will be best remembered for demonstrating why the Challenger disaster occurred by dunking a rubber band in a glass of ice water. Low tech wins again!
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pc997
If a better cable (whether it’s interconnects or speaker or power cable) provides better sound (or at least perceived sound/notes/frequencies) then the difference should be positively (scientifically) measurable. If its not positively measurable, then, IMHO, its just a marketing game.
Two can play that game. Measure what?
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@teo Whether Nelson Pass said short lengths of wire in an amplifier don’t really matter or if he intentionally or unintentionally was including fuses, or if he was making a general statement about cables or capacitors or anything with wire in it, the statement, regardless of who said it, is a little bit short-sighted in light of all we know now about directionality of ALL wire and fuses (even in AC circuits and cables and power cords (yup, AC circuits). Do you think icons of audio like Pass should be exempt from discussions about wire or cables and protected from conflicting opinions? Or are lowly audiophiles like your friend and humble scribe somehow unworthy?
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Too late now! The 🐈 is out of the 💼
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jetter
Obviously, he was also talking about a wire in a fuse.
>>>>Really? Wouldn’t he have made the point better by saying “a piece of wire less than 1” long” instead of 6” long? Maybe he was including wire in capacitors and resistors, who knows. Who cares? 🙄 I’ve been saying for some time amp designers appear to be the farthest behind current high end trends of all the major food groups. Hyper circuit focused. 👀
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teo_audio
Frankly, it doesn’t matter if it’s $2,000 or $200. I was just using a number to make a point.
According to Nelson Pass, when the given wire piece is less than approx 6", it tends to have little to no noticeable effect.
In this, he was talking about internal wiring of gear.
>>>>Interesting. Can one assume he was also talking about the wire in a fuse or was that exempt? 😀
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Yes geoffkait, silly me for suggesting common sense.
For over 20 years I’ve been buying and selling equipment. Building Systems over, and over, and over. The lunacy of the high-end supported by the claims on forums like this, is what finally made me get out. I have the main system for background music and I’m totally fine with that. In the last year I’ve switched to headphones (Focal Clear), and I could not be happier. Yes, the headphone forums spit out the same rhetoric but I pay them no mind. I’ve stopped critiquing and started enjoying and I wish I did it 20 years ago. It would’ve saved me a s***ton of time, money and headache.
>>>>You’ll pardon me for saying so but that reminds me of the expression that defines insanity, doing something over and over again and getting the same results. Perhaps if you’d paid attention to the “lunatic fringe” you might have had better luck and not have been quite so frustrated. 😀 I’m a big headphone fan, myself. Naked Grados.
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roberjerman
Belief in imaginary things is a symptom of an immature mind - Freud
>>>>>>People would generally be much better off if they believed in too much rather than too little - Barnum
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devilboy
Components do not have $2,000 cabling inside. Adding a $2,000 piece of wire between components is obviously altering the signal in a way which gives the perception of more air, wider soundstage, etc. Some cables do so in different ways from other cables.
We have to use some common sense here.
>>>>>>Why?
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sisyphus51
geoffkait,
"Zombie Cows" attracted to accordian music: Too funny! :-)
>>>Many thanks for almost responding on the right thread.
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sisyphus51
Whaaat?
Good reaction.
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Sorry to contradict anyone but electrons are not (rpt not) flowing. No way, Jose. Carry on. 🕺
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Not necessarily. The original ICs might have been in the wrong direction and the new ICs are in the right direction.
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