Interconnect cable upgrade disapointment

Musicnoise

Your background is similar to my own, yet quite more accomplished, and it accounts for the reasoning or perspectives you espouse. I too, agreed with it for an exceptional period of time. In fact I thought it a big laugh when the subject came around.

Personally however, a whole bunch of experience in one area doesn't always relate to another very well. Subjectivity isn't a bad word... you can say it in front of mixed company and children without severe reprocussions.

i think much of the opinionated controversy on who's who, and what's best or better here, can and does enable other’s to glean both different perspectives and increases in system performance. However, it is not a thing which accounts for empirical measurements. always

There are exceptions to rules sometimes, as I recall from my math classes.

The impact of a rainbow simply has no measure, save for that which is attached to it by the viewer himself. Albeit, that phenomenon can be accounted for as to its origins.

I feel these, sometimes singularly so, accounts of change by introducing new cabling or for that matter tubes, into one’s system is akin to that same rainbow scenario. The impact the noted change delivers is assigned value solely by that person.

Wether I or anyone else submit some notion of our experience (s) and another takes it, in this case ‘Papajoe’, for some simple truth, doesn’t matter quite so much as does the experience the receiver encounters.

In sales, one gets far more “No thanks” than they do, “I’ll take it”. Not every I’ll take it statement I’ve made has been my best solution, nor even THE best overall.

If varying opinions, ongoing efforts to improve an audio system through the path of changing this or that now and then, or simple trial and error, weren’t the norm, it wouldn’t be considered a hobby. No one here has a crystal ball, calculator, or existential powers sufficient enough to proclaim any item as an exact right move for another as the variables in recreating a particular sound are to great. Unlike rooms, gear types, accouterments, ears, and yep, even O scopes, etc.

Slide rules and opinions both point towards a prescribed goal with equal merit. For quite a few around here and elsewhere, their ‘fun’ is in the doing… and not entirely in the end result, or the ‘being’. I tend to differ in that one respect though. I’m more an, “Are we there yet?” sort. Therefore my consternation level runs a mite higher at times and I’m more stayed and conservative with the moves I make to alter my rig.

So ya knock and no one answers…. Knock on another door. It’s only when one stops knocking which prevents knowledge and new experiences to be gained. The sum of our knowledgeable experiences does constitute the level of our wisdom.

I’ve found so far in the whole of my experiences in life, contempt prior to investigation is a definite bar to achieving gain…. And not everything makes sense at every turn. I’ve become reasonably suited to the notion that “Sometimes, it just bee’s that way.” Too.

What sort of sound might cables then provide if one sets the box to the western channel featuring Gene Autry & Roy rogers serials most of the time?

A raw outlaw wire that is heroicly corraled by a lilting crooner, or just an IC on the warpath?

I'm not a fan of using a CDP to run in wires with. Not at all. Something with moving parts, especially my main source? Nope. I use the cable box, or my 400 CDP unit, and alternate between the two.

I figure why waste the main source? there's only so many spins in there anyhow. ...and a signal is a signal. Cables is stupid. they've no idea where that signal is coming from and I am not about to tell them.

the last few hours, 30, or 50, or so, THEN, I'll use the main source... but not before. it's senseless.

BTW... attaining different is lots easier than getting 'better' when changing in or out ICs. Perhaps another brand entirely?

Good luck.

Sorry I missed that part on you having XLR Ics.

The cable burner idea is a good one, if you don’t mind the expense for something you only use once a year or so for a few days, maybe. It would be handy in any case though.

Of course there are adapters too which make XLR into RCA and cost around $8 a pair. Your XLRs could then be plugged into another setup easily.

The cables which I’ve seen requiring more time than others are those ‘brand new’ sorts. Other preowned cables only need time to be “re-loosened” up, as I call it. The significant time or the more important time is that period where the cable has to be attached to the two items it’ll hang out with until it’s replaced. I call it the “getting acquainted” period. That should not take more than a day and likely, less.

There are lots of pro XLR cables around really cheap. $20 per pair or so. Having a set of them around and exchanging them with your more expensive ones will no doubt prove some things to you as to cable performance. Same thing with RCA cables. Radio Shak has loads for way cheap. I suggest the Rat Shak as the build.connectors are usually a tad better than the ones supplied with mass fi items and again, should prove or disprove the aspect of cables performance, run in, etc.

My exp, and more importantly, my ears, have shown me there is something to the fact of run in times, getting accquaitned time, and one level of cabling over another. There are those who do not hear any substantive diffs. I wish I was in that camp, and RAT SHAK wires would be draped all over the rear of my rack instead of what’s hanging there now… and I’d enjoy the savings… trust me on that!!

To give some substance that differing cables, both brand and model do have differing
Characteristics, and therefore sounds, I thought I’d do an A – B test and see for myself, once and for all! I’ve never had items with remote control that could provide me such a testing base. It came to last night that I did, so my curiosity got the better of me and I did my test.

I hooked up two devices. A receiver and my DAC. The DAC has two sets of analog outputs. Once connected and a source selected, and with no changes anywhere else in the system, and setting the receiver to use no EQ or DSP effects for either selection, all I had to do to select either pair of ICs was to push a button on the remote.

All else in the signal path was exactly the same. Same amp, same speakers, same source. Only the two different pair of analog ICs were the difference.

The ics being A – B’d, were Nirvana SX Ltd., and HT Magic IIs. Clearly, unless someone is tone deaf, there were audible diffs, in tonality, and sound stage. More noticeable in the former than in the latter, yet in sound stage too there were changes.

Why?

Cables conduct signals. Electricity. The issues with conductance are simple…
impedance, capacitance, resistance, and inductance. EVERY cable has varying values of the aforementioned amounts.

I believe it is these values which aid or disparage the synergy of components. If it takes only a $10 pair of wires to do this for you, then that’s SUPER! If it takes $1000? Well that’s a drag by some accounts, and ridiculous by others’. I’m not real keen on the idea of spending loads on cables either, and won’t unless I hear what I want or desire from a cable as an improvement …. Not just different.

But there are diffs from one conductor to another. How much of that your gonna hear depends on your ears, the despairity of these amounts, and your rigs resolution.

To further prove that point, I’m very happy so far, with RAT Shak RCA cables for my DD 15 sub woofer use. I’m not happy with the power cord supplied with my subwoofer.
Changing only the power cord there is good enough for me. So perhaps there is another element in picking out conductors …. “what can you live with”?

I don’t hear the lower part of the bandwidth nearly as well as I do the rest of it. Under 50 hz gets real tough for me to discern, and certainly under 40 for sure. There all I need is impact so the signal cable I require doesn’t have to be as articulate. .. and consequently, it’s not expensive.

Musicnoise

I never can get over that handle… Musicnoise… that’s super.

What is music to one is noise to another, huh? That’s a great pseudonym.

I want to personally thank you for enticing me to do my little AB test. I never have had the thought to do one outright, nor did I have the devices which could truly facilitate such an endeavor quickly enough for such a test. I had begun to doubt my previous thoughts on whether or not there truly were diffs, one to another with cabling.

Thanks to you I’ve finally determined unequivocally, that there are indeed differences. Better. Lesser. In regard to cables…. And I appreciate it very much.

So… putting the slide rule and specimen jar, aside now…

Everything has its place. Research. Testing. Practice. Application. Implementation. Revision… on the clinical side. All quite traditional methods for exploration of theorems, or theories, and ideas. I’ve absolutely no issue with science at all.

AS I’ve said previously, if the human element was not involved, perhaps then, and likely only then, things might become vastly different. There is a time and place for all of it.

So long as we humans are around, we’re going to say and do things which are contrary to a clinical approach.

For ex… when buying shoes… do you simply pick out the size style, and color you want, or do you slip them on first?

Or a gun… do you merely seek out the appropriate caliber for the task, without regard to fit and feel, or brand?

Ever order a new car or truck without driving it first?

How ‘bout that home of yours… Did ya take a peek inside before closing on it, or just look at the specs, location and square footage?

Ya know, science said those gaskets on the Challenger would be fine too… even without ever having been tested in those conditions…. Common sense observations said otherwise. We all know the result of that event.

Now I did try one scientific approach during my previous marriage… I bought my wife a table saw for her birthday. Figuring she wouldn’t use it and I could, but a present had been bought and a remembrance of the special occasion had been made.

She wasn’t terribly pleased with that approach, despite my assurances I’d use it till she could, and it would benefit us both!

She never did use that saw. In fact she sold it. Her justification was simple… when I asked her why she sold it she reminded me… “: well, it was mine, wasn’t it?”

I know that’s not a great analogy for this topic, but I felt compelled. The plan seemed solid enough… it was the outcome which threw me.

Mere science, even pure science, without consideration doesn’t always win out positively… for even science in its most pristine form is subject to the human condition, and consequent evaluation.

I feel the vast majority of audio & video enthusiast which spend severe amounts of time energy, and money, are intelligent, considerate, and thoughtful people… by and large.
Not every audio or video junkie is flush with funds either. Therefore, the litmus test for any application, integration, or use of higher end devices will always be the subjective consideration of the buyer…. And that’s no simple matter.

If such people are driven more by ego, or peer pressure, than by honest evaluation, then so be it! Let ‘em bleed. It’s their party.

The truly only appropriate equation for any audio or video nut is this… “If you hear or see a thing as being better, and can justify the expense for acquiring that level of betterment or difference, then by all means… BUY IT.”

Either way… if one chooses a clinical methodology or a simple plug it in methodology, I say “Have fun”… the last word always is a human one anyhow, huh?

The only justification I’ve ever had to make is the “Can I afford that degree of improvement, or differenced?” ….and sometimes I’ll ignore that answer if it doesn’t suit me. In the end or at least to this point, the ONLY poor choice has been a sideways step or two, and not one that undermined my system building efforts. It’s all been an ongoing upwardly moving sojourn.

Doug

It’s no wonder folks don’t do a whole system wireing AB test. The cost is too prohibitive. We’d all know the major result beforehand too…. It would be different. The question remaining would be, “Is it better?” and the issue would be, “Wonder what all them wires would do in my system?”

…but it would be interesting reading I suppose…. Or time well wasted. It’s one of the two I’m sure. Interesting, never the less.

Frank
My pleasure. Thanks much

Shadorne
Thanks very much.

My degree of disappointment hinges upon my expectation level.

“Why?” and perhaps “Why not?” are both quite formidable precepts.

These questions get me into more trouble than any other. I try not to use it until I can’t escape it and there is a real and tangible need for it’s use.

One thing I’ve found out about me over the years is this, “I don’t know everything.” It follows that I should not presume to know everything either. Nor, will I dispute other’s claims unless I’ve found out for myself they aren’t valid or not quite valid enough.

Further, until all the mysteries of the cosmos are revealed I’ll continue on with as open a mind as I am able in regards to life and other things, in general.

In fact I’ve never even stayed at a Holiday Inn Express… Gee. Maybe I should have!

Those items with too much ‘can’taffordium’ or ‘unobtainium’ within their build are quite simple matters for me… I just ignore them altogether. I won’t however, ignore what their influence might be., or their worth to another.

As was noted, cables may or may not be the answer to improve a system., more fundamentally existing issues contribute. Some positively, some negatively. Even dirty volume controls can be compensated for with more capacitive cables, yet at the loss of leading edge definition. This compensation does not provide true improvement, but improvement never the less, as the scratchy and graininess are ameliorated.

Again, as was also stated, cable geometry, and dielectric materials make for changes, or differences in sound as well. Super! Yayy. More fuel for the fire, what?

No. it really isn’t. I’ve neither the time, funds, nor inclination to set out on another wire hunt as I did a few years ago while searching out a main IC for that (now past) system.

In the end, just what would the result be in fact? It would only be applicable to the ‘now’ system most likely, and that's a rather myopic viewpoint in truth. ‘Course that depends on the subject-o-meter I was given when all this “Gee, Wanna go bowling?” “Nope. Let’s put together a really nice stereo rig instead!”, discourse began.

Armed with my brandy new ‘subjectometer’, no working knowledge of present day audio gear, some predetermined closed minded reservations, and a budget I’ve long since over shot, I began. The first build cost me dearly as I took advice from those who really neither knew, or cared about my concerns. I further hamstrung myself by ignoring the peripherals and accessories required for it to attain a greater level of synergy.

Then one day I was pointed to Audiogone during a speaker demo I was doing, knowing full well it had to be the speakers causing my sonic issues. And ain’t that always the ticket? Just buy better speakers! That’ll fix everything! lol

A ton of advice, knowledge bases, and some newly met sincere folks later, I’ve gone through two completely different rigs, and presently am satisfied with this current one. Of course NOW I need better speakers! But only due to their color, as room esthetics are vastly altered now.

The sole main ingredient that provided me the most substantial gain, was simply setting aside my own ideas and ideologies,

Isolation? We don't need no stinking isolation! ... sorry that was my best Eli Wallach impression too.

On par with that facet, was some hands on trial and error… well, I was accompanied through it all with a forlorn and woefully ignored budget, and of course my trusty ‘subject-o-meter’.

How could I have known eight years ago I was better served by the auspices of vacuum tube power? Trust me here, I had no idea and absolutely was a major component of the “lots of watts” camp… and a fully vested card carrying member.

Now, as weird as this may sound given the last note… I’m exploring a PC only based entertainment senter and beginning with it’s audio aspects. I'm also being regularly surprised by it... in a good way.

As the result of my personal investigations, and surely my willingness to do so, things around Jim’s ‘House of Sunburn and Sound’, are getting better…. Well, that and more littered. … looks like I’m gonna need a third rack soon! …or smaller components. Sheesssh!

The bottom line here? See for yourself. Try a this or that in your own rig. That’s the only truly applicable litmus test for the ‘audio afflicted’… oh yeah and there’s this too, Be honest… as there is a distinction between ‘different’ and ‘improved’. Albeit, the former can and does supplant the latter now and then.

AS this process continues a funny thing happens… your ‘subject-o-meter’ becomes better calibrated and your system will sound better… usually. RWV..