I guess I am warning you to first have a listen with your own equipment first.
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I heard a pair at a dealers - wounderful electrostatic sound but awful integration with the powered subs. It maybe they did not set it up properly. Recently heard them again with a VTL preamp and some SS power amp. Boy did it sound awful - can't even begin to describe it.
I guess I am warning you to first have a listen with your own equipment first.
I was also thinking of purchasing a pair & listened to them at a dealer. Unfortunately, wtam's experience was the exact same as mine. They sounded awful. Also, the construction, especially of the bass section, was shoddy to say the least. There's a review in the current bound for sound, and they also agree with our findings.
Well, my Eros sound fantastic with the InnerSound SS amp. They will definitely play MUCH louder and more dynamically than MG 3.6s without any audible stress, and customer support is excellent. Roger Sanders takes great pains to rectify any customer complaints. I agree that construction of the cabinets could be better, but you could say that about most speakers. The sweet spot for me is 1.5 to 2 people wide, possibly more narrow than that for the Maggies.
I like both systems and could have bought either, but because of their overall purity coupled with high input/output capability, the Eros won easily. The 3.6s simply won't play at very loud levels without blowing fuses or ribbons -- plus their bass performance leaves much to be desired in my opinion. It sounds kind of loose and anemic. The bass on the Eros is fast, dynamic and slightly lean and mine mate very well with my subwoofer.
Even when using speakers that exhibit wide sweet spots the sound is by far the best when perfectly centered between the two speakers. Do any of you do your critical listening out of the sweet spot, or am I to assume that you just don't listen that critically? Yet you obviously buy expensive speakers... What's the deal -- are you concerned for your non-audiophile friends who don't really care about sound quality and can't sit still in the center for any length of time? I'm really at a loss to understand this issue, because with whatever speakers I've used, no matter how omnidirectional, they ALWAYS sounded best in the center of the sweet spot. That's why it's so named... Anyway, this game is all about trade-offs and we each pick the respective blends of weaknesses and strengths that suit our personal biases.
plato, sure i listen in the sweet-spot - when i'm alone. lotsa times, that's not the case. in my current set-up, i can actually be, say, to the right of the right-hand speaker, & i still get a decent soundstage. granted, it's not nearly as nice as being in that *spot*, but it's still enjoyable.
some speakers, are *so* sensitive, that even small head-movements, while sitting in the sweet-spot, can change the soundstage. i've heard this before, & it's not wery pleasant, imho...
Doug, I understand your point and do not necessarily disagree with your view. As soon as I can find a speaker that has the considerable strengths of the Eros (and to the same degree), plus a decent off-axis presentation and isn't double the price, I'll buy it. So far I've been hearing a lot of highly-rated speakers that all seem to have at least one coloration or area that I can't live with or too high a price. Another thing: I don't want any speaker that weighs in at much over 100 lbs per side. I've heard that the Newform speakers are very good, but haven't heard them myself. Can't say I like them from an aesthetic viewpoint and I wonder about the adequacy of their bass performance and their dynamic capability. Any decent speaker could be considered great, but it's always a question of what you're comparing it to. And any great speaker can be made to sound pretty awful as well. BTW, I don't put much faith in BFS because I have disagreed strongly with some of their reviews in the past. I know they don't take advertizing, which may eliminate the potential for bias in that area; but I seriously question their judgement (or lack thereof).
I had a pair of Eros Inner sound speakers and the ESL amp in my home for a few weeks. My general observation, They play LOUD (105 db SPL+) in an approximately 8000 cu foot room. The bass integration is as good as all but the very best hybrid design, but does require careful room placement. I found it best when the speakers were fairly far from the wall despite the manufacturers claims. If you want the absolute bottom octave you will need a sub. I think that they are a very good value for the money and would recommend a listen. I think they are especially good on art rock and chamber. They aren't quite so good on very large scale orchestral music but then I'm comparing them with my Dunlavy SC-V and customized 400 watt Melos monoblocks. I've also owned full range Acoustats and double Quads so I have some experience with the electrostat sound.
Plato -- This is not meant to discourage you from liking your innersound spkrs, but if you're serious abt wanting a better spkr with a wider 'sweet spot' and all around superior spkr, try the merlin vsm-m. I directly compared them to the innersound and the merlin substantially bettered them in all areas. I actually wanted to like the innersound spkrs because I liked the idea of the bass amp etc... A note of disclosure: I owned merlin vsm-se spkrs for abt 3 yrs before I went shopping for new spkrs.
hi plato, i can't disagree w/what yure saying here - of course, *1st* priority is *ewe*, in the sweet-spot. :>)
re: newforms, i haven't heard 'em either - but their 30-day audition policy seems fair enuff, & i'd only be out shipping, if i dint tink they were *the ones*. re: their bass-response, it's really not an issue for me, as i already have a subwoofer set-up, but i can see possible concerns if ya don't. 'cuz of my subs, i'm currently leaning towards the nhb645's, instead of the r645's, cuz, while they sacrifice a few hz at the bottom, i tink they'd be faster up to 1khz, where they have to blend w/the e-stats. i'm also considering doing a custom-yob, w/accuton drivers, which should be an order of magnitude faster than *either* of the above...
regarding bfs, i try to take *all* second-hand info as a starting-point, to narrow my search. in the case of the newforms, unless there's someone in the frederick md area that has 'em & wants to inwite me to hear 'em, i'm stuck - except for being willing to risk return-shipping charges.
oh, re: the newforms' appearance, ya mean there are speakers out there that are actually *uglier*??? ;~)
I've got the Newform Research Monitor 30's and the soundstage and imaging are great. The sweet spot, about maybe 2 people wide, but it is listeable in much wider area. They have that great airiness of electrostatics. These are made to mated to subwoofers so not directly comparable to the 645 series. With only a 30 inch ribbon, you can definitely tell the difference when you stand up. These speakers definitely need a quality subwoofer. I need to upgrade to a faster one. I have some of the rare full length grilles, which help their odd apprearance, but they sound better with them off
Thanks, just my two cents worth.
It really boils down to perspective where one mans dream is another mans lunch. In my opinion, ESL's tend to be highly room dependant to a far greater degree that box speakers loaded with dynamic drivers. Even if you have a great room, set up and placement is critical to reveal the optimum sonic character and performance. Additionally, ESL's can tend to be a bit difficult to drive due to the low shifting impedance loads. I've listened to the ML Prodigy on 4 different occasions and have heard them sound magnificent and in a different set up they sounded terrible. The Innersound Eros hybrid certainly fall into this category. The flat ESL panel design scope of the Eros can render extremely detailed, timbre correct top end magic. The bad news is that this flat panel produces a "Sweet Spot" that tends to be smaller than a curved ESL. If a wide sweet spot is mission critical to your listening experience the Eros is probably not going to be your cup of tea.
In my experience, there is no question that the Eros produces better bass definition than anything in the ML product line up from the Prodigy on down. To my ears, transmission line bass enclosures deliver bass like nothing else. Personally I think the build quality of Innersound far exceeds most of ML product offerings and I certainly would not describe it as "shoddy". Take a hard look at the fit and finish of the bass cabinet of the ML Request for design and workmanship. There is no comparison and the bass quality that is produced by both speakers reflect this.
I purchased a pair after months of auditioning the Maggies and ML product offerings. Roger Sanders gets 5 stars for excellent customer support. Innersound is totally customer focused and that is important to me. I suppose the Eros are not perfect for everyone nor are they intended to be. For me, the Eros delivers the music in spades and I'm extremely happy with them. Isn't that what we all dream about? Regards; -Jerie
Interesting dialogue on the subject of the sweet spot above. As a long-time amateur speaker builder turned dealer, I'd like to offer my $.02 on why the sound outside the sweet spot matters. The ears derive timbre not only from the first-arrival sound, but also from reflections arriving within the first 13 milliseconds. This includes many, many reflections off room surfaces. When the tonal balance of the reverberant field is significantly different from the first-arrrival sound, the ear/brain system has to work harder to integrate the two (your ears expect the reflections to sound like the direct sound with the room superimposed on top). Because of their directional characteristics, very few loudspeakers generate a reverberant field that has the same tonal balance as the on-axis sound. The way to check the reverberant field is this: Turn the volume up a bit louder than normal and walk into the next room, leaving the door open. There, all you can possibly hear is the reverberant field. If it sounds convincingly like live music, then that speaker has a very good reverberant field response, which is a significant contributor to long-term listening enjoyment.
You calling me a LIAR?? Well, if you are, I say it takes one to know one! ;-)
Seriously, thanks for your kind words, Jim. And you too, 90493m.
Another test I find useful in predicting long-term listening enjoyment is to turn the volume way down, all the way to the threshold of audibility. At low volumes the ears are most sensitive in the midrange, so this technique can spotlight midrange peaks or anomalies that are often overlooked at higher volumes, but which subtly contribute to listening fatigue. If the sound is still enjoyable at ultra low volumes, then that's another indication (but not guarantee) that the speakers will sound good long-term.