Imaging and the first violin(s)


If there’s one gremlin in my listening for decades, it has been a certain instability in the image in certain circumstances. I listen to a lot of chamber music, and I’ve noticed that the first violin’s place in the image can get less defined, particularly when the instrument is playing fortissimo. I’ve also noticed it in orchestral music, and sometimes in different ranges of piano recordings - moving from left to right.

I wonder if it is my setup - I’m along the long wall of the room, and while there is lots of space on either side of the speakers, it is not exactly symmetrical. However, I just moved last year, and the shorter and harder side switched from right to left, yet I get the same thing. Three different sets of speakers have exhibited this, and I’ve noticed it auditioning music in dealer showrooms as well (btw, don’t all those speakers standing around play havoc with near term reflections??). I haven’t done enough controlled experimentation, but I do think toe-in ameliorates it a little, but not all together.

I wonder sometimes whether the violins are able to, essentially, cut into the right-aimed microphone at certain levels. Or, I suppose, it could be a frequency-based imbalance in my own right and left ear hearing.

Anybody else notice this sort of thing?
ahofer

Showing 7 responses by ahofer

Well, in general I'm really happy with imaging in my set up  This is a specific problem, and it has persisted through different setups and other systems.  Nonetheless, it could certainly be the room, or aggravated by the room - I have limited scope for treatment as I maintain peace with my wife who, while a musician, has limited patience for visual concessions to audio.

I'm traveling now, but from memory, the Sequoia Quartet's recording of the Ravel Quartet.  Try the second movement (Assez Vif; Tres Rythme).  Lots of dynamics from all the pizzicato. The violin seems to come from the right channel periodically.  I think this is on both Qobuz and TIdal.

With quartets I never have trouble deciding whether the cello is on the outside or inside (they set up both ways) and most of the time I hear the violins on the left. It's just certain passages, often characterized by pizzicato or fortissimo playing.

Bill Charlap Trio - West Side Story.  Typically, and much like the rest of the jazz world) Bill sets up on the left, bass in the middle, and for trio drums on the right (as you face the stage, and yes I've seen him live a bunch of times).  The Piano seems to be in somewhat different places based on where he's playing in the registers. I get the same thing with some Joey Alexander recordings (whom I've also seen live set up the same way). 

The problem with studio creations is they could just as easily multi-miked the piano and centered it, which would create this effect, so it's harder to know what the intention was. Whereas quartets are usually in a performance space, although I've seen setups with both near-field mics and the typical double mic suspended above.

Thanks for the suggestions.
Incidentally, I’ve been in some concert halls that had disturbing reflections from near the stage. If you go to Carnegie to hear a pianist, don’t sit on the tiers on the left side towards the stage. Even down on the floor, if you are too far left, you get a reflection off of the stage wall that is disconcerting.

Not exactly the same thing, although I've wondered whether having some live surfaces around the stage might contribute to this effect in some recordings.
@gs5556  yes, I attend live chamber music about once every two weeks, and every month or so my wife plays with friends in our home (she is a violist).  I have a Steinway "M" which was in my living room for 28 yrs until last year, and I went to Music School for several semesters while getting my bachelor's elsewhere. Concert halls do have their vagaries, as I suggest above, but this seems to be a stereo reproduction thing  
@lowrider57 I suspect this mic bleed is fairly common. It is fair to say that the chamber music I have on my server is older recordings like this, which may be a factor. Right now I’m listening to a 2009 Guarnieri recording of the Mendelssohn opus 13 [oops it's a remastering] that is pretty solid, even in the more strident passages of the final movement.

I’ve always loved that movement of the Ravel, and I love how dynamic that recording is on a good system.
Just listening to the Orpheus Quartet  playing a Bargiel String Quartet.  

https://www.amazon.com/Bargiel-String-Quartets-Nos-Octet/dp/B07KLGPDD6

Try track 4.  I think it's a reflection in the venue, but higher/louder passages also deliver violin in the right channel.
See/hear also the 2018 Doric Quartet versions of the Mendelssohn quartets, Chandos.
I've started closing my eyes and listening for this in concert venues, which I never did before.  It is there.  The violins play at high frequency and volume directly into stage left or a little beyond. You get reflections.

Then there are those dratted recordings/concerts where they split the first and second violins across the front of the stage. I wish they'd tell you in the liner notes/metadata so you don't think something's gone terribly wrong.