If I just use a DAC, do I need a Pre-amp?

A preamp could be used as an opportunity to color the sound somewhat. For example I recently picked up a tube pre to "relax" the sound,  and afford me the opportunity to muck about with tubes for a while.

Depending on your configuration, a preamp of some sort might be necessary if you wanted to add more sources.

The old purest will hook from a phono directly to a power amp with gain control,  that's it..., The same with a CD or whatever the source is. Like ebanksms said.. coloration and "INs and OUTs". Some have a bypass thats a cool feature...

Regards

Many older dacs VC cut the bits at lower volumes

This topic has been discussed extensively. Many opinions on both sides basically concluding that the results will depend on the components in the system. Do a quick search...

It DAC does not have a built in volume control you need a preamp.HELLO!!

As long as you have volume control and you're happy with the sound you don't need a preamp unless you have plans to connect more components. 

It seems having a well executed volume control is one of the least appreciated and most important aspects of achieving high fidelity. Some of the top builders use massive multisection potentiometers withs shielding between the sections to achieve great sound. A preamp does far more than just "color" your sound w/r/t volume control - it preserves high fidelity.  In many cases you are leaving a lot of meat on the bone going straight from a streaming DAC (for instance) directly to an amp. 

Here's an opinion.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dh27E7YKN9s

I agree with three_easy_payments..............

Oz

The Fisher 400CX 2 is a classic preamp if you want it as a vintage piece that’s one thing but if you’re wanting it simply for volume control you could do a lot better buying something newer or having the Fisher refurbished. Your players have volume control is there something in particular you feel that’s missing?

The fear of missing out.  This is a hobby, so if there is some sonic thing that a pre gives me that my music player on my PC or my digital player won't, I'd like to know.   

The Fisher is being refurbished.  I have 1st right of refusal.   I do not need volume control.  The Fiio M15 has a nice volume knob and my Audiovana player and both DACs have filters/mini EQs.  

So I think I am missing nothing.  Except I think the 400CX 2 is beautiful - but that is no reason enough to buy it.  

Clearly, I will need to hear it first, and that is tonight's plan.  Both DACs on the Fisher SA-100 (I have other Amps and don't use a pre-amp).

Part II is I think the  Fisher 400CX 2 might hold its value over time.  So I might loose cost of money, where a modern just-as-good or better preamp would likely loose a lot of value in the near term.

As noted above, some DAC’s volume control cut the bits at lower volumes. If your DAC does this, you definitely NEED a pre-amp.   If your DAC has a ’high quality’ analog based volume control, it might sound great going direct to your power amplifier, OR maybe not.

There are no absolutes and that means you have to schedule a test using your equipment, and YOUR EARS, to decide if a pre-amp is, or is not needed. Based on my experience (my ears), I decided to use a pre-amp for the best sound quality.

Some DAC’s have excellent high quality analog based volume controls and others do not. As was also stated above, the only way you are going to know is to test the configuration by going direct from your DAC to a power amplifier and then the DAC direct to a per-amp. In other words, you have to hear how it sounds and then decide what sounds best to you. Unfortunately, it seems, there are many different opinions on this topic (some yes and some no).

The first thing to do is rid your signal chain of all processors, filters and "mini eq, etc. Then and only then can you worry about things like preamps.

And I would forgo the Fisher for something more modern (and better!)

Oz

davidgwillett
I have the opportunity to get a nice Fisher 400CX-2...but why?

 Going direct is the most transparent/dynamic/uncolored way of listening to your source.
Only if you find the need to "color" the sound of your source do you need an expensive active preamp, but you will take a hit on the above for that coloration.
It makes better sense to change the source to get what’s wanted/needed instead.

Classic saying: Ivor Tiefenbrun (Linn LP12 TT inventor)
"It all starts at the source, get that right and you half the way home"

Cheers George

I am buying a DAC with a volume control in July, the AudioByte Vox setup. One of the pieces in that 3 unit stack is not yet available. After many years of using a DAC direct and also with a BAT VK-42SE preamp. I found the addition of the preamp beneficial.

Yesterday, I bought the Benchmark HPA4 preamp + headphone amp to connect to my future DAC. Not sure if this is to be believed but some reviewers were stating that the addition of this preamp made the DAC sound even quieter than direct DAC to amp. I shall see when this unit arrives in a few weeks.

Preamps are for volume controls and switching between source.

Some add things like filters, tone controls or extra gain for phono sources. 

Preamps typically introduce a particular sound of their own. Some might like to use a preamp for that alone


If you don’t need any of this things you are good to go.

Luminous Audio makes a passive preamp with a volume control that is not in-line with the signal. It works great, trouble free, and it does not change the sound. You can add inputs and outputs and selector switches as desired.

Not sure if this is to be believed but some reviewers were stating that the addition of this preamp made the DAC sound even quieter than direct DAC to amp.

Who ever said this is yanking himself, because it’s impossible, unless there was a grounding problem.

Nelson Pass,

“We’ve got lots of gain in our electronics. More gain than some of us need or want. At least 10 db more.

Think of it this way: If you are running your volume control down around 9 o’clock, you are actually throwing away signal level so that a subsequent gain stage can make it back up.

Routinely DIYers opt to make themselves a “passive preamp” - just an input selector and a volume control.

What could be better? Hardly any noise or distortion added by these simple passive parts. No feedback, no worrying about what type of capacitors – just musical perfection.

And yet there are guys out there who don’t care for the result. “It sucks the life out of the music”, is a commonly heard refrain (really - I’m being serious here!). Maybe they are reacting psychologically to the need to turn the volume control up compared to an active preamp.”

Luminous Audio makes a passive preamp with a volume control that is not in-line with the signal.

That’s just uses a series fixed resistor with a pot shunted to ground, best is is a series/shunt ladder as it gives far better input impedance consistencies.
http://diyaudio.co.kr/wwwboard1/data/board1/compare.pdf

Cheers George

I tested my system last year as you are considering.  In my case I preferred the system with the preamp.  In my case the DAC was a NAD M51 and the preamp is an Aesthetix Calypso.  I was considering eliminating the Calypso.  The Calypso has the best fit/sound in my system.  So much so that I sent it in to Aesthetix for their Signature upgrade last fall which has proven worth the money for my system.  Maybe I would have felt differently had I selected a better DAC.  

You need to do some homework. True digital volume control (such as in a mac, windows, and many consumer players) is very poor. You begin with 16 bits, do some digital math, and wind up with as few as 8 bits remaining at realistic listening levels. On the other hand, some solutions can do the math -- **and the D-A conversion** with 24-32 bits, which allows them to play around with 8 bits and still have 16 left. These are likely superior to any analog volume control. Otherwise, analog is still the gold standard, if built properly. That means using a preamp - active or passive. "Passive preamp" of course, is oxymoronic since it amplifies nothing.


I answered this in much more detail, twice, in the past year and my fingers are tired. Look up ESS’s excellent technical paper with the graphs to show you. ESS is one of the few DACs that allows it to be done properly, so, duh, they publish a paper on it :-)

So, first you need to find out what your Fiio does. If its a clean volume control, and you need no further switching, no need for a preamp o add more stuff to the signal path, and maybe clean up some impedance mismatches (an unsung benefit of a good preamp).
G

I faced the same question, having found that adding a preamp always brought sound quality down a notch, compared to a simple analog volume control. My solution was the Schiit Saga preamp, which is passive if you want it to be, and has the option of adding a tube buffer should the impedances of your system be incompatible with a pure passive. The volume control is completely analog.  As an added plus, it has a remote control, and it was less than $400. The new versions, the Saga + and the Saga S, are tube buffered, or solid state buffered, respectively. As with the original, the buffer is optional and can be turned on or off with the remote.

Even cheaper than the Schiit Saga, but it’s just passive is the Schiit Sys $49. it’s 10kohm passive just like the Saga just not paying for the tube stage or remote. https://www.schiit.com/products/sys

Cheers George

I hooked my Fiio M15 up to the Fisher SA-100 and a pair of Altec 604B Hollywood's.  It was beautiful.  The buddy pushing the 400Cx-2 was not thinking there would be an improvement.  That is going in for a total refurb.  So we will A/B in a month.  But it sounds great as is.

The SA-100 has no volume control, so it is all via the DAC and works great.  

I was using the preamp on my Mytek Brooklyn DAC.  It worked well since it has an analogue volume control.  I had an old Joule Electra LA150 preamp.  I put new tubes in it and tested it to see if it could replace the preamp in the Brooklyn.  Admit to liking the sound with the JE150 better than the Brooklyn.  Was the sound better?  Not sure but the JE150 was clearly different and I liked that difference (more detailed).  So I would not spend money without testing first.  You might like the different sound ... but maybe not.

"If I just use a DAC, do I need a Pre-amp?" 

  As many have previously stated, if the DAC has volume control, no. Do you WANT a pre-amp? Probably,  yes. Worst case scenario, the preamp is distasteful. In such a case, sell the preamp. Carry on as you were, all the wiser. 

The old purest will hook from a phono directly to a power amp with gain control, that's it...

That's actually the one source which absolutely requires a preamplifier (and its fixed EQ).  Phono cartridges are akin to microphones or guitar pickups.  They are transducers whose output is so low that there is far too little gain (as well as mismatched impedance) to feed a power amp.  There is also a matter of applying the RIAA EQ curve.  In order to get the most out of the medium, extreme EQ is applied to the master.  That EQ is applied in reverse in the phono preamp.  Phono inputs on a preamp are different than any of the other inputs.  You should never plug a line level signal in to a phono input and never plug a turntable into any input *but* the dedicated phono stage.

As mentioned above, the Schitt SYS passive preamp has analog input for two sources and cost $49 plus a few bucks shipping.  I have one and like all Schitt products its a great little unit.

I've been looking at upgrading my speaker cables.  So, was playing around with my system setup last week.  I've an Audio Research Pre and Power amp and a DCS Bartok DAC.  

I listened to this with the AR Pre in and out of the system.  Getting the volume equal was a bit of work.  The most obvious difference with the preamp in vs out was with the presentation of the soundstage.  It was much better defined and spacious, with the preamp in. 

So, if you have a DAC that has volume control, no you don't need a preamp. Depending on your system, you may find that a preamp adds a lot!   

One DAC, has an analog potentiometer, the other from the software player.

These are the specs of the DAC I plan to use.  https://www.fiio.com/m15

As posted above - tried and liked already.  I may try a pre-amp in a month to see if I like the sound color.  Mainly because as a vintage one, I expect I can sell it for what I paid and then some.  I would not buy a new pre-amp even if "better" as I'm more likely to not get my money out of it.

Subject = Ad Nauseam........My Luminous Audio Axiom, Walker mod, 3 in, 2 out, with remote, is just what the doctor ordered. I do not hear it, in my signal chain. The chassis does not resonate, the connectors and wires are top notch, the switch and control, are also, top notch. It works with my 3 dacs, 4 tuners, and my many ( still ) amplifiers, and is, ime, and imo, perfect....for me, and, that, is all that matters. Enjoy, and stay safe.....Always, MrD.

If you have the availability of software attenuation, i.e. ROONs media playback software offers the option, then you will want to compare use of the software volume control versus the hardware volume control. 

Results will vary on performance, and there is no telling prior which will be superior. I always compare the two regardless of which integrated DAC is being used. Results are not universal; with one integrated DAC the software vol. control yields a superior result, while a different integrated DAC I use yields an opposite result, and is far better with the hardware vol. control and the software output fixed. You simply must try them both. 

Beware that if you are not careful, a software volume control can be bumped, touched and send the system into max output. Caution is necessary when using such attenuation. However, dedicated DAC direct to amp is always cleaner, if not fuller. YMMV 

I strongly recommend the addition of SONORE's systemOptique to convert Etherent signal to optical, as it drops the noise carried on Ethernet. Striking change, improvement. See my article about it at Dagogo.com  

I have no interest in arguing with people about "bits" and resolution, etc. Superior performance is easy to hear. 

" I strongly recommend the addition of SONORE's systemOptique to convert Etherent signal to optical, as it drops the noise carried on Ethernet. Striking change, improvement. See my article about it at Dagogo.com"
From Dagogo article:
"For Dagogo readers still spinning discs or streaming audio through a Mac Mini or similar, this article is for you. "

Which really isn't me.  The primary DAC referenced above is really a DAP.  I am not streaming for this application, rather play downloaded files.  I may look at this for the Qutest where I do sometimes stream.  

Pre-amp is the heart of your Audio System every device is connected it to except the Speaker.

the Atma-Sphere MP-1 or MP-3 will serve you well for years to come without regrets. 

davidgwillett OP

The old saying "best preamp in the world" "sound like a piece of wire".
Guess what that’s what going direct is, and then passive and last an active preamp.

And if you don’t like direct and your not "bit striping", then you don’t like the sound of your source, change it, don’t add another expensive problem into the mix.
As Ivor Tifenbrun (Linn LP12) said, it all starts with the source, get that right and your almost home.

Cheers George

John Atkinson's review of the Pass XP-30 preamp is a pretty interesting read relative to the question of to use a preamp or not; e.g. https://www.stereophile.com/content/pass-laboratories-xp-30-line-preamplifier

He starts by referencing the Ayre KX-R preamp with

So much for the effect of expectations on perception: the KX-R sounded better than no preamp at all! As Wes Phillips described in his review, music sounded especially alive through the KX-R, whereas with the Transporter driving the amplifiers directly, it was all a touch less involving; acoustic objects within the soundstage were all a tad less fleshed out.

But it could be argued that my finding should not have surprised me. Ever since reviewing Audio Research's groundbreaking SP-10 preamplifier in July 1984, I have suspected that the preamplifier is the heart of a system, that it colors and adds its own character to every signal that passes through it. What I hadn't anticipated was that this character might not be a mere absence of negatives, but could also be a positive attribute.

and concludes with

The XP-30 has rekindled for me the concept that the beating heart of an audio system is the preamplifier.

@phantom_av " Pre-amp is the heart of your Audio System every device is connected it to except the Speaker."

For me "every device" is one device. 
For this thread it is a DAP (no stream) 256 and 512 DSD player on the device to the Amp or DAP->pre->Amp.  
-I have an analog volume 
-I have filters (EQ)

I will wait for my free test.  If someone offers a money back test, I may test, but I expect they will get their device back. 
I'm a bit more confident now than in the OP as I had not tested then.  Now having hooked it up to some guys amps that insisted I need a pre-amp and now they don't.  He said come back in a month and try.

My setup/s are very simple.  They are also in different places.  It may be wrong, but I have a source/amp/speaker setup. 

I switch setups, not components.  So far, there are no pre-amps.

The source determines the DAC and amp and speakers.  
Examples...
(this OP) Fiio M15 player local data ->Fisher SA-100->Klipsh Heresy

Then other stuff:
Windows 10 Audiovana Player ASIO driver to Chord Qutest -> 300B SET -> Chartwell

As above to HH Scott -> Watkins Gen 4

Same DAP-> http://www.erhard-audio.com/Elvis.html ->Maggies
(another state)

The only time I might switch source on the same amp is on the Scott for a TT.  I have about 8 records.  Everything else the source is matched to the amp and the amp to the speakers.  

And JA concludes with

The XP-30 has rekindled for me the concept that the beating heart of an audio system is the preamplifier.

Yes Nelson Pass is in business to make money, even from his preamps, if people want them.


Yet Nelson Pass also quotes this:

Nelson Pass,

“We’ve got lots of gain in our electronics. More gain than some of us need or want. At least 10 db more.

Think of it this way: If you are running your volume control down around 9 o’clock, you are actually throwing away signal level so that a subsequent gain stage can make it back up.

Routinely DIYers opt to make themselves a “passive preamp” - just an input selector and a volume control.

What could be better? Hardly any noise or distortion added by these simple passive parts. No feedback, no worrying about what type of capacitors – just musical perfection.

And yet there are guys out there who don’t care for the result. “It sucks the life out of the music”, is a commonly heard refrain (really - I’m being serious here!). Maybe they are reacting psychologically to the need to turn the volume control up compared to an active preamp.”

Cheers George

A DAC with a volume control built in may be just fine, but then again, it may sound better running through a preamp. It depends on the "match" with the power amp you are using. I run a BelCanto DAC/Pre straight into a pair of Bel Canto mono amps with excellent sound, but they are designed to work together without the need for a preamp. Try before you buy if  you can.

to my ears, preamps impact the system's tone, speed, and resolution. to me and in my system, they have had more dramatic impact than amps (that's not to say that amps and other changes haven't). i picked up a nice soulution pre and am never looking back. i've done the dac with volume control but it's not for me.

Yes you can, but the impedances of the equipment might not match, causing anomalies.  

Yes you can, but the impedances of the equipment might not match, causing anomalies

There is no impedance match problem with today's solid state sources, but there "can" be with boutique "tube output sources".

Cheers George 

Have tried the following preamp configurations with my Wilson Alexia 2s, Linn Selekt DSM with Katalyst DAC, and Pass Labs X600.8 monos:

1) VTL 6.5 Signature II [tube-SS hybrid] ($18K)
2) McIntosh C2700 [tube] ($8K)
3) Audio Research Reference 6SE [tube] ($17K)
4) NO PREAMP - direct to amp

The Audio Research Ref 6SE for this particular set up was the winner, with all options having unique characteristics that were quite good unto themselves.

But we aim for a natural, warmer sound that encourages long listening sessions and deals well with a broad and eclectic spectrum of musical genres. This translates into us favoring a tube preamp since our amps are solid state.

The direct connect from the Linn Selekt DSM to the amps sounded lethargic just enough that after a few songs we were done listening. Sure, the highs were crystal clear and the bass had punch. But there was inferior cohesiveness between the highs-mids-lows, and the highs were a bit tinny and borderline fatiguing while the bass was not as tight in relation to the rest of the musical frequencies—compared to the tube-based Ref 6SE.

Throwing the Ref 6SE back into the line-up, the musicality returned and we listened for hours, sampling every type of music. We never returned to the direct DSM-to-amp config.

Since we have Pass Labs amps, we are getting in a demo of the XP-32 preamp, which we have heard good and not so good about. But we are checking out the synergy that may arise from both pieces (meaning the preamp and amp, that is, as the XP-32 is a 3 chassis set up and the monos are, well, a 2 piece deal) being from the same manufacturer.

My point: YOU have to listen for yourself. Never let anyone tell you what you will find best. It is YOUR room, YOUR system, YOUR ears and YOUR music. All the electrical theory and bits and bytes mean nothing if you hate it. This is art more than science. You are a living soul, not a robot.

@athrillofhope - Provided pretty much the last word on this.

The only thing I would say is that really good preamps can have an eye watering price tag attached. Even extreme versions of a passive can be as expensive as you feel the need. They can also be really cheap, like the Schiit sys - while decent, you still just get what you pay for. Better volume pots exist, etc. Their Saga+ pre in passive mode with remotely controlled switched resistor network is a better choice. That's what I currently use as a simple attenuator between a Schiit Bifrost II DAC and True Image CM2500 power amplifier.

 

On the fear of missing out...

For those on a shoestring budget like me,who want to play in the big leagues have to learn and build for themselves. The DIY audio community has a great Nelson Pass thread, featuring sporadic postings from Nelson himself who is an avid DIY proponent. After all, if there was no DIY, this hobby would have never bootstrapped.

You can spend the money on a chassis and components where it counts and build your own great pre. Keep your money where it belongs and stop funding someone else’s penchant for lazy days on the back 9.