Ideal SUT for Lyra Olympos cartridge?


I have a Lyra Olympos on a Graham Phantom arm and like this combination alot. I am looking for the SUT that can best match this cartridge. I've got a rather inexpensive Cinemag which simply doesn't highlight the attricutes of this cartridge at all. Price aside, what would fellow Goners suggest and where to get it. Auditorium, Express, Shindo, looking for some meat on the bones type of sound and hopefully some flexibility for future carts.
frontier1
What phono stage are you using?
I'm using a Shindo Vosne Romanee phono which is onboard and of the MM type.
I have owned many SUTs over the years, from Cinemag to Audio Note and more. IMHO, SUTs built on the Hashimoto transformers sound best with the collection of MC cartridges that I have tried. I suggest that you contact John Parker at Choir Audio. John builds an excellent, modestly priced SUT around your choice of either the Hashimoto HM-3 or HM-7 parts.

Last year I purchased the less expensive unit, the SUT-H. In my systems it was substantially better than the Audio Note AN-S4 Silver I was using, and was in a completely different league than the Cinemag. I would imagine that the HM-7 based unit is even better. Highly recommended.

Chior Audio SUTs
Dear Frontier1: IMHO the ideal SUT is NO SUT for that great cartridge. If you want to hear the Olympos " true " you need a good active high gain phono stage.

I think that if you own a Ferrari you don't put cycle tires " there ", right?

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
How about the Lyra Erodion SUT? Would make sense to me...
Dear Frontier1, ask Syntax - he has the Lyra Olympos running since 15 months and has a wide selection of SUTs.
Cheers,
D.
Btw, that does not means in any way Syntax is " correct ". As you with those 20 years using Ikeda wire many of us choosed to live in the " error " for months as Syntax or years like you.

IMHO all of us has the right and the desire to learn and grow-up.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
Frontier1,
I'm fully with Rauliruegas on this one!
Excuse this crazy question but have you tried the Lyra straight into the MM input of your Shindo? This might give you a taste of how good a non-SUT setup can be? I do not doubt that there a great SUTs out there but they are few and far between(probably expensive too, + extra interconnect cost)), I personally never came across one.
I have a 0.28mV MC Colibri which I ran for a year into the ARC Ref Phono MC input (built-in Jensen SUT, 69db gain). Not sure what alcohol or drug I was on one night but I tried it into MM (48db gain) and up to this day I can't believe how much better it is. Yes there's a bit more hiss but the sound, OMG! So I'm now looking for a higher output Colibri. For half the cost of a great SUT I suspect you can finance an upgrade/crossgrade to a good non-SUT valve higher gain phono stage, maybe. BTW it also wouldn't suprise me if a cheaper higher output Lyra sounds better straight into MM than your current cart through an SUT...
Dear Frontier1, uuuhhps - I forgot: - of course, only Raul is right, constantly learning, constantly growing-up (god - he must be tall by now !) and he is the one only "objective" source of information here on Audiogon.
Forget my remark about an experienced owner of the Olympos with a high gain phono stage and many SUTs.
Forget too about all the technical synergies between a moving coil and the corresponding inductance of the matching transformer (SUT).
Go put your Olympos direct into your MM stage .... ;^) ... and live happy ever after.
Enjoy,
D.
Well, Raul, I think, I forgot more about High Quality analog reproduction you will ever learn. Live in peace with MM Cartridges. That's your Standard and that's ok.
cheers!
Dear Syntax/Dertonarm: Some of the audio learning curve " stages/steps " where both of you are and where I'm are different and nothing wrong with this because almost each one of us have their very specific Audio Learning Curve Status/Level.

Both of you still are on SUTs, heavy mass TTs, LOMC cartridges, tubes, vintage tonearms and the like.

I already been in all those audio " subjects/stages/steps " where I enjoyed each one of them at maximum and where I ( like Dertonarm posted. ) learned a lot and in deep in each one " stage ".

IMHO I'm an empirical audio " researcher " and as you know a person that likes audio " adventures out of the box ". This IMHO healthy attitude permit me over the time to grow-up and improve on almost any audio area where you ( sooner or latter ) will be in the future.

I, in no way, have any " orientation " by any reason to support in deep audio technology or audio items that already " get out of time/expire " for me due to a better audio options.
Don't you think that this learning process was a " fast track " one, no it takes a lot of years of enjoyment ( at each item stage. ), tests, tests and more tests: tests/experiences over a wide of audio systems different from mine. I take audio and music very seriously always.

Yes, right now I left behind all those " stages " that you both support because I learned that there are way better " roads " and audio technology to improve any system quality performance level.

Right now I support that digital could and can outperform the analog experience and for many people this can't be: I have to be wrong.
I understand why the persons could think in this way because they and their audio systems are in a different ALCS.

In the future you as many other analog oriented persons will agree that digital is not the " way to go " but another great and unexpected " way to go ".

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
Dear Syntax: +++++ " I forgot more about High Quality analog reproduction you will ever learn. Live in peace with MM Cartridges. " +++++

yes I know that you just forgot it. Then I suppose you need to learn again or stay where you are.

Yes too, I'm still learning on analog that's why I understand the whole MM/MI subject.

In the other side there are several persons that for different reasons stops their audio/music learning process and stop their grow-up, I did/do not.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
Dear Dertonarm: +++++ " constantly learning, constantly growing-up (god - he must be tall by now !) " +++++

agree, I can't be said it in better way!

+++++ " he is the one only "objective" source of information here on Audiogon. " +++++

fortunately not, there are several persons with different ALCL in different audio subjects where I follow my learning process and where other people do the same.

In the other side you have an ALCL where in some audio subjects several persons in this forum are at higher level ( that you are. ) on that same Audio Learning Curve subject or it is that you are still thinking what you posted when you begin in this forum? remember?:

" I don't have nothing to learn on audio ", this was your " intimidate/tion " Agon presentation.

Over time several persons show you ( one and again. ) that you was and are wrong with what you think of your overall audio knowledge level.
The latest one ( a few days ago. ) was John_gordon on that SME subject: remember?

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Dear Vusi_khumalo: +++++ " what alcohol or drug I was on one night " +++++

certainly that was fortunate for you and your Colibri.

I like very much the Colibri and other MC cartridges and till today the way that permit that the MC cartridge shows its best is through active high gain stage.

There are a lot of posts and threads on the SUT overall subject so I don't want to start something that you can find elsewhere I only want to say that more and more persons like you already " discovered " a better " road " than SUTs for their beloved LOMC cartridges: they simply grow-up/learned.

Btw, I like you learned some things by " accident " a fortunate accident I have to say.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
Well, Syntax in his human materialistic form is 6 feet and 4 inches - rather tall and pretty grown up.
I wonder whether his critic here can match that ...
In any case - I had those top-flight MM and MI cartridges when they were new - not NOS ... - and used them with nice results. I still continued to listen with joy to the sound of the modified ML180 ( aside my LOMCs ...) in the early 1990ies - which was a steal for the money.
But I too saw the decline of the MM and MI ( aside from Joe Grado who never ever gave in ...) when high gain phono stages and high quality SUTs came up during the second half of the 1980ies.
I understand everyone who favors MM.
I understand everyone who wants to use the "straight in" approach with LOMCs too.
I used a cascaded Fet preamp with 78 dB phono gain in the early 1990ies. Enough gain to work even with a 0.15mV LOMC straight in.
Back then I was all in the "straight in"- camp and hated SUTs.
Till I first encountered a LOMC with a perfect matching SUT of top-quality.

I know too, that SUT is not en vogue in some parts of the american audio community. I have learned too, that technical and synergetic aspects of corresponding coils and thus truly matching SUTs for a given LOMC aren't appreciated in some circles either.
But all that is not my problem.
MM do have a strong following and ever had - and there are reasons for that. Those reasons however do not appeal to me, as I never had the problems they cure.

But who knows? Maybe soon we will see a new thread named "Who needs LOMC when we have MM ?" .... just kidding ...

The ideal SUT for the Olympos? - that was the initial question, wasn't it?
Simple and straight answer: a SUT with a primary matching the inductance of the Olympos' coil source inductance.
Further look out for maximum bandwidth (= lowest phase shift) and frequency extension especially in the low register.
The gain that SUT will offer is a direct result of the matching coils and will be between 16 and 22 dB.
The ideal SUT for a given cartridge is the corresponding 2nd half of an integrated system consisting of a moving coil cartridge and the matching SUT (not my idea, but the way it was intended to be by definition of the engineers who invented the moving coil principle in phono cartridges).
So that search should be guided by the technical parameters of the Olympos. Hardly by likes, dislikes, recommendations or caveats of other audiophiles who do not have the Olympos - nor do know what a quality SUT really is, how the synergy with the right LOMC works and how it shall be used.
Cheers,
D.

Cheers,
D.
Dear Syntax, this brings to my mind again a favorite story I always loved.
It is about two audiophiles seeking the "truth" in audio - and about the difference between science, philosophy and audio.
Here we go:
- what is science?
Two audiophiles in a dark room with no light and no window looking for a black cat.
- what is philosophy?
Two audiophiles in a dark room with no light and no window looking for a black cat which isn't there at all.
- what is audio truth?
Two audiophiles in a dark room with no light and no window looking for a black cat which isn't there at all.
Suddenly both claim "I've got it !!"

Cheers,
D.
Dear De4rtonarm: +++++ " MM do have a strong following and ever had - and there are reasons for that. Those reasons however do not appeal to me, as I never had the problems they cure. " +++++

which reasons? why don't appeal to you? which problems they cure? . Obviously that your welcome answers will put some " " light " to your words.

Do you really know what are you talking about or just catch the black cat?.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
You may want to take a look at offerings from Intact Audio or Bent Audio.
I agree with Mosin on checking on Intact Audio transformers, or those from Bent Audio. I have a set of Bent Audio Mu transformers and they are the first transformers that I have had which really perform at a top level where I don't think I am missing too much.

Separately, there are some top quality headamps out there dating from the Golden Age of analog (late 70s early 80s) which are just fantastic. Personally, I prefer my headamp to my Bent Audio SUTs.

I think discussion of why some people think MM carts are less than perfectly appealing should be done in a different thread.
Dear T_bone: I did not have idea that you was designated Agon thread " moderator ", good!

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
As always, Mosin's advice is wise!
Dear DertonarM: With T_bone " permission " ( I hope. ).

As always when you are only " bluffing " ( almost all the time. ) you don't have any answer any true and precise answers.

I knew you was only " catching " your " black cat " showing your knowledge-ignorance level in that regard.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
The ideal SUT for the Olympos? - that was the initial question, wasn't it?
Simple and straight answer: a SUT with a primary matching the inductance of the Olympos' coil source inductance.
Further look out for maximum bandwidth (= lowest phase shift) and frequency extension especially in the low register.

Can you explain this a bit more clearly. I am having a hard time understanding your logic since your first statement directly contradicts your second.

I would expect the coils source inductance to be in the micro-henry range and if the SUT primary matched that not only would it be 6dB down to start, the 2-4 ohm DCR would swamp it and I would be surprised to see anything that resembles the input waveform * turns ratio at the secondary.

Furthermore if you desire low end bandwidth, your SUT primary inductance has to be several multiples of the cartridge output impedance which is for the most part determined by the copper losses in the coils (DCR)

dave
Dear Dave, a "matching primary" doesn't mean at all that it's the same inductance. We are talking about SUT - ergo: (S)tep (U)p (T)ransformer.
Not step down nor 1:1.
If you are in SUTs a bit - which I presume you are .. - you know very well what I meant and what is in general technically meant by "matching inductance".
Cheers,
D.
"I'm using a Shindo Vosne Romanee phono which is on board and of the MM type."
Frontier 1, Did you try the Olympos direct in to the VR's
MC input. I would guess that if your V-R has an MC input, that you have. You may want to talk to Dave Slagle, who posted here earlier. I have heard very good things about his
custom built SUT's. FWIW, I have the Choir Hashimoto H-7,as Br3098 mentioned.It has a Lo/High Impedance setting,and sounds great in my setup. I can't say how it would work w/ your Lyra though.
Any experiences with the Lyra Erodion SUT?
Raul, "ALCS"? Here in the US that stands for American League Championship Series, games that are played among the best AL teams at the close of the season to determine which of them will go to the World Series.

I admire your feistiness and agree with you sometimes. Sometimes you take on too many ideas at once and claim hegemony over all of them. Not a good idea. And you cannot escape the inherently subjective nature of audiophilia, try as you might, any more than the rest of us. And for the rest of us, that's "rarely" or "sometimes" at best.
Oops! I see that I responded to what is now an ancient argument between Raul and others. Sorry, Raul.