"I'm sure it is but I don't see the economy being at fault for the decline of hi-fi even if you believe the politically weaponized economic stats."
Could you explain that sentence in great detail; I can't seem to figure it out?
Thank you n80
I wonder how many audiophiles there are these days
There’s a lot of speculation about how this is a dying hobby. I’ve been at this for 40 years, and it certainly isn’t what it used to be. In the old days there were cars and stereos as “toys” and that was about it. Now there’s a long list of competition, together with a general lack of interest in high end sound quality (Pono didn’t make it, which was no surprise).
My kids friends come over (millennials) and I often get a “wow”, and that’s about it. I keep an old vacuum tube in a drawer to hand them, for the inevitable question “what are those?”. Then I tell them about how I’d go to the drugstore with my dad and do the TV tube test as a regular activity, which usually leads to a strange look and a sudden desire to know what’s for dinner.
Anyway, there are still many high end equipment companies, probably more than ever, but it’s likely most only sell a handful of units. Serious audio stores are pretty rare, witness the road trips some of us take to just hear a set of speakers.
If if you define “audiophile” as someone that is seriously interested in this as a hobby, does serious research on components, and is willing to spend a significant sum (which is totally relative), how many of us are there? I suspect at least 10,000, but not more than 50. Total guess, I’m hoping it’s higher because it’s a great hobby and I’d hate to see it get any more rare.
Probably more important, is whether interest has stabilized. I think it has. There seem to be a lot of younger guys in these forums as well.
What do you think?
JL
My kids friends come over (millennials) and I often get a “wow”, and that’s about it. I keep an old vacuum tube in a drawer to hand them, for the inevitable question “what are those?”. Then I tell them about how I’d go to the drugstore with my dad and do the TV tube test as a regular activity, which usually leads to a strange look and a sudden desire to know what’s for dinner.
Anyway, there are still many high end equipment companies, probably more than ever, but it’s likely most only sell a handful of units. Serious audio stores are pretty rare, witness the road trips some of us take to just hear a set of speakers.
If if you define “audiophile” as someone that is seriously interested in this as a hobby, does serious research on components, and is willing to spend a significant sum (which is totally relative), how many of us are there? I suspect at least 10,000, but not more than 50. Total guess, I’m hoping it’s higher because it’s a great hobby and I’d hate to see it get any more rare.
Probably more important, is whether interest has stabilized. I think it has. There seem to be a lot of younger guys in these forums as well.
What do you think?
JL
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orpheus10 said: "High end audio is not a necessity, and as each year passes, the middle class is restricted more to "necessities". Not a good recipe for the high end." I think the logic of this is sound. And surely it is true in many cases. But I think it misses an important point: People will find a way to do what they love to do. Case in point: automobile racing. I am a member of a national racing association (though I do not race, just track days) with regional divisions. You might expect to find a paddock full of well healed gentleman drivers in Porsches and Ferraris but you would be wrong. Sure there are some. But a tour of the paddock will reveal a decidedly working class population of people who scrap together everything they can in order to race. And even at the lowest levels it is terribly expensive. No matter how low end the car it must have a roll cage, race seats and harnesses and the driver must have a helmet, full race suit with shoes and gloves plus a HANS device. And it all has to be current. That's about $3000 at the lowest end possible and that includes no car, no fees, no tires, brakes, fuel, hotels, etc. In some classes a set of tires lasts 2 races and cost $1000. They love it so they find a way to do it. And I know a lot of them....and they are not "living in an upper middle class environmental bubble". And the hobby/sport is growing like wildfire. Right now. In this economy. "People who are not aware of this must be living in an upper middle class environmental bubble; which is a good place to be." I'm sure it is but I don't see the economy being at fault for the decline of hi-fi even if you believe the politically weaponized economic stats. |
I spent so much time in high end stores, that my wife swore I was seeing another women. The stores I went to had incredible salespeople and setups. When business was slow, we would swap stuff in and out like crazy; especially when new top of the line ARC or CJ came in. Naturally I brought my best CD's; this equipment created such an audio reality that you could visualize the performers. When you're having so much fun rapping and listing to the best music on the best equipment, it's easy to forget the time; plus the store was a considerable drive away; maybe I should have brought ice cream and flowers home. "Honey, I just been with some dudes listening to high end equipment!" |
This is the definition of "Audiophile", and it ain't cheap; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audiophile Fortunately, I accumulated my equipment when there were "Brick and Mortar" high end stores, and it was expensive, but I could better afford it then; that began in 1990. Relative wages have gone down, not up; that means out of the total population, fewer people can afford to be Audiophiles as it's defined "Wiki". |
Well we retired to SC (Myrtle Beach) recently and I believe there may be more audiophiles than you think down here nowadays. It seems everyone we meet is from NY, NJ, CT, PA- retirees. Just meet a guy last month who has a Legacy/ Bryston system. He was over listening to my system and I plan to visit him next week. |
I wish more people were into Jazz, but they're not. I was in Lexington MA the other night at a famous guitar store for a "meet and greet" with the Santa Cruz guitar guy Richard Hoover (I own a Santa Cruz guitar), and some music from the world class Tony McManus and his amazing side woman Julia Toaspern (fiddle and guitar...brilliant). I'd been in Lexington the week before for a dual piano concert with Vijay Iyer and Dr. Lewis Porter...astonishing show, attended by maybe 75 people...Vijay might be the best musician I've ever heard (I own and enjoy a lot of his music), and Dr. Porter ain't no slouch...but nobody I asked at the guitar thing had been to the Iyer/Porter show. A shame. |
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"Judging from what’s going on in the U.S., capitalism creates a huge downwardly mobile lower middle class, and a thriving 0.0001%. Not exactly a recipe for breeding people who seek the finer things." That plus the fact there is no place to audition high end gear like there used to be. High end audio is not a necessity, and as each year passes, the middle class is restricted more to "necessities". Not a good recipe for the high end. People who are not aware of this must be living in an upper middle class environmental bubble; which is a good place to be. "Somehow, I cannot visualize a "poor audiophile"? |
When big screen TV's started coming down in price everyone thought movie theaters would go out of business. didn't really happen. In the past 7-10 years printed newspapers and magazines disappear more than the ones that survive. Definitely did happen. regarding counting magazine subscriptions, how many doctors offices are in those numbers? The younger generation that will be in the spending top of the bell curve in 10 years - I just don't think the will want to be bothered moving a speaker to change the toe-in by 2" to improve the focus. as an aside, I see most speaker lines having common drivers but as you step up you get a bigger cabinet and more bass. That's it! naturally that's kind of like paying 3x more to go 145MPH instead of 130MPH. and if you want to go 160MPH the cost again goes up geometrically. that top end in cars is the bottom end in speakers. |
Here's perhaps a different take on the current audiophile scene and how the younger generation might perceive it (I'm in the middle - GenX). I consider myself a "reluctant audiophile" because while I want to hear the best sound quality I can. I'm far more excited by the broad access to music these days available through Spotify and other streaming services. Perhaps I'd be more disappointed in the sound quality of streaming music if I had a $50k system, but at my $5k level (Peachtree Nova, Sonus Faber Concertinos, REL sub), it sounds decent and I'm never bored by the music I have available. For the $120/year price I pay for premium Spotify (or even at the $240 level that you'd pay for "HiFi" level Tidal), how many good quality LP's can you buy? |
I don’t know what kind of music Fabio listens to but Frank Zappa reported it was the best audio system he ever saw. However, there seems to some controversy as to whether that’s Fabio or Michael Green in the photos. http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/showthread.php?13814-Fabio-s-System-1995 |
Thought I’d chime in again, I was distracted by the side discussion about Das Kapital and economic theory. I come away thinking that the stories about audiophile sound reproduction dying have been greatly exaggerated. Tomycy6 - brilliant to look at the Stereophile subscription numbers, wish I’d thought of that. If you take these numbers, add other similar subscriptions, those that read but don’t subscribe, worldwide interest (yes, including growing wealth and ability to pay), etc., you get to some pretty sizable numbers very quickly. I also think you’re right about purchases moving to the internet, which is much more cost effective. We probably infer too much based on the greatly diminished number of retail stores. Djones, absolutely true it was always a niche market. Whether you’re listening to a 1968 $20 Garrard TT or iPhone earbuds it’s the same stratification, a small number of people take an interest in music quality while most don’t. One very positive change is that price performance has come WAY down. I recently put together a system for my daughter and son-in-law. By carefully selecting products and managing component synergy, I spent less than $5k (all digital), and came away with quality I don’t think was possible 30 years ago for 3x the money. There’s capitalism for you! JL |
Fabio was an audiophile. He invited the well known reviewer Larry Archibald over to see is Fabulous 😀 high end audiophile system. "When I’m with my stereo, I’m in my world," Fabio told Archibald. Fabio explains, "The big black columns are speakers, one is just for the woofers, the other is for the mid-range and the tweeters," he said, pointing to four 8-foot speaker columns, two on each side of his giant Sony video monitor. "Here you get very complicated because you got 12 sub-woofers, instead of one; you have 76 panels in each column between mid-range and tweeters. Then you have a special crossover. ..." He could have mentioned, as well, the 2,000 watts of power that rage beneath the high-tech, custom-finished stalagmites of sound. Like a lovesick suitor, Fabio explained to Archibald his decade-long passion for Krell Industries product-especially the company’s "monster" amplifier-and how he once picked up the phone in an effort to meet the CEO of the company, which is something you can do when you’re one of the most recognized people in the world.” |
Seems to be a lot of companies building expensive gear so someone must be buying it. Whether they are audiophiles enjoying this gear or statement pieces playing in the background who knows and I doubt the companies building it care one way or the other. How many audiophiles are out there? No idea, per capita might be the same , a lot of young people now use cheap bluetooth and ear buds with their phone but when I was young a lot used cheap speakers all in one turn tables and small transistor radios with ear plugs. It's a niche market always has been. |
There will be lots more than that. In America maybe, but here in Europe there are new shops opening up from time to time, but Audigon is not wholly relevant because many of the higher end products available in the States are simply not sensible to import, so there in no opportunity really to listen to them. And then factor in India and China. I don’t think the hobby is going to die out soon! |
There used to be a ’Statement of Ownership’ printed in the back of magazines in the November issue that gave circulation numbers for that year. There isn’t one in this year’s Stereophile or TAS so maybe that regulation has been discontinued. However, in last November’s Stereophile, the "Total Paid Print Copies + Paid Electronic Copies" monthly average for the preceding 12 months was 68,451, which is not fantastic but enough to feel reasonably good about the number of people still interested in audiophile gear. I think another measure is the number of companies making audiophile gear. If no one’s buying the stuff, you are gone pretty quickly. I think there are more audiophile companies making more audiophile gear now than ever before. There are probably more companies making high end turntables now than there were makers of all types of high end components in the early 80s. Every day there are a couple hundred items listed here and I assume most of them sell eventually. I know the stuff I have listed has sold. The internet has made the buying of audiophile gear less obvious than when there were more local shops around. Remember when shopping malls were packed with stores and shoppers? Now most of them are empty but people are buying more stuff than ever. |
These days, things we like to call "systems" are somehow still relevant. Give it a decade or so, when every current 15-year-old is starting to be a major factor, and it will be no more. As whoopycat suggested, Bluetooth speakers and headphones are probably all that will remain at any level of significance. Some may be better quality (think Dynaudio etc.) but sound quality is not on minds of current teenagers. iPhone speakers are just fine with them, even when given some "more sophisticated" option. |
Getting back on topic (PLEEZE), it depends on how you define audiophile. For traditional, two-channel stereo systems with separate components, it is probably dying. I think the headphone scene is alive and well. Whether we like it or not, active speaker systems are on the rise. Many people love the sound of their Sonos and entry level bluetooth speakers, and it can get better from there, as we are seeing more active speakers by major manufacturers: KEF, Focal, Klipsch, ELAC, Dynaudio, etc. Plus high end actives such as Kii and Devialet. |
I do not think people were questioning the benefits of capitalism. More like emphasizing negative sides of it. At least that is how I read it. I have never sold a car. I have always given it away so people could become horizontally mobile. Same for stereo equipment which was, I admit, of a lower overall quality than would be considered "audiophile" these days. As I write this, I feel like Santa Claus. |
It seems odd to hear audiophiles questioning the benefits of capitalism. I saw a used pair (or maybe it was 3 pairs) of 1.5m long RCA cables on sale for $18,000. And there will be people who will suggest that they make a real and important difference. Must be nice to be in the 0.0001% eh? If you’re an audiophile who believes capitalism is evil.......time to sell your gear and give the money to someone.....who is downwardly mobile. |
Poverty level is much lower in some European countries that combine their brand of capitalism with strong elements of socialism. In some countries, like Norway, there is very little poverty. In modern America its capitalism pulls out of poverty some and pulls more into it. However, poverty has been on the rise in Germany too, but less so. Anyway, there will be audiophiles no matter what, both poor and rich. It has nothing to do with income. You just have a better sound if your income is higher, that's all. |
sleepwalker65, I KNOW people who have been raised from poverty by the simple premise and provision of capitalism. In that regard your comment is explicitly false. Second, even in a broader context you cannot substantiate that comment. I've never heard anyone debate the fact that worldwide, capitalism has raised poverty levels. China is a perfect example. And if you don't think that what has gone on there in the last 30 years is capitalism then you're not paying attention. Further, the simple fact of US foreign aid (Sagan would say billions and billions) have rescued millions from starvation and depravation and is unprecedented and unparalleled in world history not just in the pure scope of it but because it is extended to those who can do nothing for us and in many cases who are even our enemies. In fact, countless millions were drawn out of poverty in Europe with the Marshall plan. Contrast that with how those swallowed by the Soviet Union fared. That is purely a product of capitalism. And you will see no such charity extended by any other form of government. |