I'm pretty excited about my new room i'm building

Congrats. Keep a blog and share a link!

I will thanks 

I have a room (below grade) on a slab here in Portland, OR. It had an engineered cork floor, installed at the suggestion of the contractor. It was really gorgeous and softer and warmer underfoot than wood or Pergo.

Water vapor passes through any concrete slab. Over time, water vapor condensed below the floor, saturated the underlayment, and caused problems that proved costly to fix.

Unless you are in a dry area and your outbuilding has a perimeter drain and excellent moisture barrier, I’d be very careful about any flooring that won’t let the water vapor through. There are products made to raise flooring off the slab, and I guess they are used in commercial construction, but I am uncomfortable having moisture accumulate at all. However, they would let you use Pergo or something like that.

We had the slab ground down, a densifier applied, and eventually settled on an all-synthetic pad and carpet for the room. There has been no further moisture problem. Any water vapor is taken up by dehumidifiers (set to 45%).

I am not an engineer, and I can’t provide real construction advice -- this post is meant just to alert you to issues you should discuss with a specialist in on-grade flooring. In my experience, a general contractor and the floor manufacturer were NOT reliable sources of advice.

I don’t want to forget: Enjoy your space! It’s wonderful to have one that large!

mike_in_nc
I'm seriously considering treating the floors and do some type of paint on them and just using large throw rugs 

hey Ray,

congrats on the very fun and satisfying process of room building. i loved it for my room. i’ve now been in my purpose built room for 16 years, and it only took 10 years, and lots of changes to my supposedly 'perfect' room, to figure it out. mostly that was me getting humbled and then learning.

so enjoy your honeymoon period, and be prepared to mostly learn and keep peeling the onion of room development.

cheers,

Mike

The concrete floor could be sealed (for finish, ez pz) then the use of Throw Rugs for Absorption and Decoupling (gear and racks).
Concrete is well damped and highly reflective .
Also Mass Loaded Vinyl would be useful in framed areas ...

Congratulations!! You will have a fantastic time in that new space.I know you mentioned solar and you generate the power yourself. Not sure if "grounding" matters in this case. If yes, then make sure that you have that done properly and solid. Don't rush too much on the treatments. I found that out some months ago. Try to add a bit at a time and experiment. I checked your system and see a lot of absorption. If you are going to buy more panels, do consider "diffusors". Make sure that you have the correct lighting. I find that lighting also affects our perception and hence "how it sounds". In my room I found that humidity below 50% is better. But I guess it is personal choice.This is a going to be great. Keep this thread updated. And once you are all set, post new pics :-)

oleschool OP
.I am remodeling a stand alone building on my property.The dimensions are 16’x24’x9’ with 10"thick cement floor.

Seeing your still in the design stage, think of this that I posted (below) on another thread, it IS the prerequisite to get great imagining and depth perspective to your sound staging, to even outside the speakers.
Nothing between as far back as possible (except amp on the floor) also nothing behind or outside speakers if possible for 1.5mts or more.


Rack buyer

I’m quite aware of what negative effects occur with the rack in the middle, between the speakers. Unfortunately I suspect,
like myself, most don’t have the space or the the means to place it off to the side.

Me: It is the single biggest killer of sound staging and depth perspective, it makes a hiend sound into midfi, because there’s no artist to place and see with your eyes.
If you can’t put your equipment rack to the side, maybe the behind you, or as I did in one place that allowed it, the next room.

Cheers George

georgehifi
curious ? my system will be on the 16' wall any distance from rear wall is fine.i am in a tighter space now so I have full range treatment because I am 2.5 feet from side wall .This room I can easily be 3-4ft and the same from rear .If I follow the not in center lead what about reflection issues if I place it on side wall? I can go no more then say 10'-12' up side wall .thats easily a 20' cable run .I am eventually switching to Vac monos in a yr or two and will upgrade my speakers this spring (yes I have some favorites ) but until I consider that as far as I want to run and pay for that length of cable . I know I know ,but i'm comfortable there . Since i'm on concrete 10" thick my main concern in not floor issue but vibration from speaker ,given it is closer in the middle now .

milpai
I have the grounding very well done, overdone I also run a some stuff now it works great .The power I generate is imo far superior to standard pole electric ..As for treatment those panels are only 12" wide the larger one is a bass trap . my speakers are like 2' from side wall and my ceiling is wood 1.5" thick .It gets a lot of slap echo and was just super bright .After I did this treatment the rooms sounds much larger actually .

rego

This is where my brain is headed for the floor.
https://directcolors.com/acid-stain/?product_code=DC-CAS&variant_id=23207&campaign=115124279...

The walls are 2x6 contruction already in and insulated and drywalled .The ceiling is also drywalled and insulated , with attic space is open above. It has redwood batten board siding .I was an outbuilding built on my ranch .I is very well constructed .

milpai
I can update as I go but I am afraid of boring people with construction pics lol. But I will if everyone is interested its pretty beat up inside now . Luckily my father in law is a drywaller .I am going with all led of course for me but with a lot of recessed lighting and lighting for my framed music goodies I have collected for yrs . reflections or not I have waited too long to not have all my band art in one spot .I will sacrifice that im sure my beat up old ears won't mind but my brain will enjoy the art .the audio will be directly wired from panel to independent breakers for amps etc

Can't be as boring as another thread about fuses or cable risers.

oleschool OP
any distance from rear wall is fine

Ray, you want "some" bass loading so 1-2mts from the back wall. And side walls no closer than 1mt.
This is what I did in my room,

you have a 24ft long room so this is possible,

I took out the centre wall between the speakers and left short walls behind the speakers, this still gave bass loading. The imaging is like you feel you can get up and walk into it and shake hands the the artists, and the depth of the image goes out into the backyard, I also get very good imaging outside the speakers.

Here is a crude drawing not to measurement/scale of the room.
https://ibb.co/LhGsmw6

oleschool OP Luckily my father in law is a drywaller

OK very important, 2 x compressed R4" thick batts (we call them pink batts) (Rock wool batts even better) in-between the dry wall every dry wall you have you should do ceiling to floor. (we call them gyprock panelling walls.) This will stop hollow wall drumming. This makes the walls sound like they are made of solid brick

Cheers George

the drywall is already up and insulated behind it 2x6 with redwood batten board . The building is an existing building I have . I could remove the drywall behind the speaker and do this pretty easy I guess ?as for distance I will only know when I know but 3-5ft is doable any direction as my listening are will probably be 3/4 distance .I know it a touchy subject but im a fan of swarm subs I will add two more most likely 

In addition to the insulation (don't pack it too much), you should consider double layer of drywall for added mass or acoustic drywall.  Are you trying to reduce sound getting out / in?
There are many impermeable underlays for carpets and floating floors that will prevent any moisture forming. They work very well and provide insulation as well if there is a cold floor.

georgehifi

The drywall is already up and insulated behind it 2x6 with redwood batten board (The building is rock solid ). The building is an existing building I have . I could remove the drywall behind the speakers and do this pretty easy I guess ?as for distance I will only know when I know but 3-5ft is doable any direction as my listening area will probably be 3/4 distance .I know it a touchy subject but im a fan of swarm subs I will add two more most likely I posted a very crude pic I scribbled from my mind additional subs wherever they work . As I stated before I will put pics on the walls ,I know this is a reflection point but at 53 yrs old, a lifetime musician and mechanic I want it more then the sonic difference lol

maybe not I can't load a pic here

Sure you can it's easy once you've done your 1st one, just use this https://imgbb.com/ free image hosting like I do.
Up load your pic to it from your computer, and load it and you get a link to post here like I did with mine  https://ibb.co/LhGsmw6

Cheers George

Very cool. I'd love to pick your brain some day on your "off-grid" system. As far the room goes, I would borrow a good, single, active monitor, a measurement mic (Behringer is fine and cheap) and install and use REW to analyse the acoustics and see if they are any glaring issues or tweaks to be made while still in the construction phase. I'm certain there are a lot of people who could look at the REW results by just posting the file here and letting those with experience help.

Of course I'm assuming that you don't already do this?

Cheers,

Tom eh

oleschool OP

That will work. Big waisted space behind the chairs, you only need half that.
With that length you could do what I did though, move your listening chairs and speakers/subs back say 8ft.
And then have with a short wall (your father in law could make no problems) behind the speaker for your subs and mains.
And have something like my sunroom, maybe as a bar with small fridge behind one of the short walls, small table/chairs to do some modding/soledring or work on.etc.

Cheers George

I finished my purpose-built two channel room a year ago. You are at the perfect stage to optimize dimensions with shelving and storage.

1. I suggest looking up dimensions obtained by a big simulation, done properly, by the School of Acoustics at Salford University in the UK. Results and a paper in the professional literature are offered for download.

2. Stereophile had a feature article on a case study of a music room, early in 2019. Lot of good ideas there.

3.  My own experience with Quietrock 545 and elastomeric glues and caulking from Chemlink was very good. Q 545 is not cheap, but it's solid solid solid - more than an inch thick, two formulations of gypsum plus a layer of sheet steel. As for Chemlink, we used at least 10 cases of the stuff.

My results were excellent. The quality of silence in the room is remarkable - in fact, most visitors remark on it right away. When I want an intimate sound, I sit in the usual listening position. Big bass, in a corner.

Good luck!

I used that acid stain in a 24x24x17H building where I make wine. Results vary with what you want to achieve. Your going to want to seal it. I assume a moisture barrier is under the slab? Your basically etching the concrete with the acid. You can get some really cool results. I don't think you will be walking around in your bare feet. As far as insulation, have you priced foam, where it is sprayed into the walls? Acoustically I would think that would be better than fiberglass. 

Another good idea is to have shelving on the wall behind the speakers and the wall behind the listening position. Or if not shelving, something else irregular.

Foam will only be better if it is denser, but foam if typically not ideal as it created a stronger mechanical connection which is what you don't want.

As far as insulation, have you priced foam, where it is sprayed into the walls? Acoustically I would think that would be better than fiberglass.

Foam won't deaden/damp the Gyprock (drywall) panels like compressed 2 x 4" batts will, as the cavity is 4" you have 8" of batt compressed into 4" that will damp/deaden both side of the dry wall.

Cheers George  

He used 2x6, so if you use typical 4" fiberglass bats, its not going to fill the void. If he used a r36 insolation for 2x6 framing, that would be a much better application. I know of applications where the foam (which hardens) would fill any voids with the fiberglass insolation. I would think the denser the internal wall the better the acoustics? I live in a log home 6" thick and the solidity of the wood makes for very good acoustics.

Yes, solid is your friend. You don't want the bass frequencies to flex the drywall with each compression, and then relax with each rarefaction. There is a reason no-one but homebuilders make speakers out of drywall.

You want spring and push, not static foam just sitting in there, and if you have too much spring behind it, it will over time budge and release off the studs and noggins.

Cheers George

Don't quite understand, George. Are you advocating flexible walls or rigid walls?

It would be pretty shabby construction if the screwed in dry wall were pushed away from the studs by too much insolation. If I were to do a room from scratch, 2x6, I would shoot liquid foam insolation into my walls and fill every nook and cranny! They even have different liquid foam for a variety of applications. Sound proof and the likes. I used it for panels for my walk-in cooler. When I do my frontal lobotomy's you can't even hear the screams!

Open cell foam spray with styrofoam sheeting...

It would be pretty shabby construction if the screwed in dry wall were pushed away from the studs by too much insolation

You obviously have never put up Gyprock (Drywall) in your life.
It’s not that the screws or nails pull from out from the wooden or steel stud and noggin framework.
It’s that the head of the screw pulls though the Gyprock (drywall) it’s self when under too much pressure, especially on high humidity days as the outer paper coating softens, it’s just made from paper and powered gypsum, and has no strength itself.
https://s3.amazonaws.com/finehomebuilding.s3.tauntoncloud.com/app/uploads/2020/04/24125114/END-VIEW-...

If I were to do a room from scratch, 2x6

Do that and you may have to re-do the whole lot sooner than you think, this time with 2 x 4" R4 batts in the 4" sometimes 3" wide cavities.

I would shoot liquid foam insolation into my walls and fill every nook and cranny!

The batts fill every nook and cranny also, and has resistive push against the back of the drywall, foam does not it just sits there, with no resistive spring/push behind it.

Cheers George

Thank You for the construction tip George. I would have never thought that it was the head of the screw coming through the drywall! Forgive my wording! George you are wrapped far too tight! 

George you are wrapped far too tight!

No! just have to correct things other may do and pay the price for later on.

Cheers George

I'm encouraged that you aren't planning to put impervious flooring on the slab of your room. Not doing that, you have dodged a bullet IMO.
Regarding paint, many products claim to "seal" concrete with epoxy or paint. I would not use them, because it is so difficult to effectively "seal" concrete or brick against water and water vapor. Maybe you will have more luck than most. We tried sealants on exterior brick in NC and gave up. Our concrete slab here is painted with latex concrete paint and is peeling.

You can apply a densifier to concrete, which slows down moisture penetration and cuts down dust. There are special paints meant for concrete, based on ancient formulas that bond with the minerals. Here is one of them: https://www.greenbuildingsupply.com/All-Products/Paints-Coatings-Paints-Primers/Silacote-Paint

Maybe look at this guy's website: https://lgmandassociates.com/  He is a specialist whose advice was invaluable to us when we were trying to fix our bad flooring. He's got some good articles on the Web site.

I am not trying to be a buzz-kill! But we went through months of trouble and high expenses because of bad choices we didn't even know we were making. Knowledge is power.

I’m encouraged that you aren’t planning to put impervious flooring on the slab of your room. Not doing that, you have dodged a bullet IMO.
Regarding paint, many products claim to "seal" concrete with epoxy or paint. I would not use them, because it is so difficult to effectively "seal" concrete or brick against water and water vapor.

My father in-law had his cement slab in the garage ground and polished, you can eat off it. I don’t think it was sealed.
That was over 30 years ago, it’s still the same today and still shiny. Only problem is when I go there to do oil changes, the car ramps need rubber sheets under them or they just slide away when you try to drive up them.

Cheers George

If the concrete is finished with a gas powered trowel, you can get it so slick and it develops a black hue to it. It actually burns the concrete. I'm in NC to, anything outdoors sealed is difficult. Indoors with what oleschool wants to do with the acid finish, sealing will enhance the colors. I've seen some pretty cool epoxy finishes.

Sounds like a cool project.  If power is a bottleneck a Class D amp  is very efficient and will get you further with less. 

mapman
power is not .I have a very enstensive setup to drive my property ,solar solar solar and back up generator with a lot of battery backup .I am actually switching over to the new lipo batteries not standard lipo there different and I am exploring a wind turbine as I get a lot of wind .I would also use water driven power during winter but California is super demanding on using it 

jakesnak

Did you see the acid stain company I posted ? I was thinking the black.and you speak of epoxy ?  got a web direction?

georgehifi
I don't drink anymore but was thinking if I put my recliners on magic slides I could sneak them up and have a bar sized pool table in that rear space .scoot them back say 4' more when seriously listening.Problem is really, I spend many of my early yrs working in hifi brick and mortar .I had a fire 14 yrs ago and lost everything including all my cj tubes, magnepans etc including 2500 irreplaceable lps and 5000 cds and many guitars . After that I was  faded, jaded and done . I have slowly started noodling again in the past 5 or 6 yrs ,then a daughter and a son (yes my wife is younger then me lol) so I am looking forward to having that sanctuary, even more then "its too loud etc in my spare bedroom . So I have some constraints and sacrifices to enjoy a daddy space . These including pics on walls a dart board and maybe a pool table . The walls are in and drywalled as I stated earlier 2x6 r32 I believe 10" thick pad . I would consider removing the speaker wall and putting in the rock wool etc ,but am more interested in a good space to relax and enjoy music .I've been a guitarist for 40 yrs and a metal fabricator, hot rod ,bike guy all my life ,so my ears are getting beat up .If any of this make sense? The space will be mine so if I want to hang or paint the the wall furniture etc its all my gig ,my wife is totally cool with it 

@oleschool

I have one thing you should consider and it was brought to light in at least one post to this thread. Room treatment. Yes, it is important. But, I'd recommend that you just finish the flooring, walls, ceiling, lighting, etc. Then leave it empty besides your gear and listening position, then once you get used to the sound, implement treatment slowly. I have done this over the last several years and all I needed to do was corner bass traps and it sounds excellent. I put a low/medium carpet on the floor and no wall decorations of any type. It sounds amazing. I know each room will sound different, but what you don't want to do is go to far right off and over damp the room. That'll take the snap and sparkle right out of the music and make it sound dead. Also, note that if you choose some type of wood flooring or just seal/finish the concrete floor, it will be very reflective and maybe too lively. I know one person that had to just take the flooring out and go with a low carpet due to this problem. Again, all experiences will be different, but take it slow and do as little treatment that allows you to really enjoy the room. You can also experiment with pillows, blankets, etc on the floor and in the corners or along the walls to get some idea of what carpet and other room treatments will do without having to spend, wait for them to come, and then be disappointed. Best wishes to you and have fun!.

pokey77
Of course I will employ this method until I find where I need to be . I had a huge improvement in sound and bass in my small room with adding panels. It took the bass from boomy to much tighter and the bright reflections mellowed immensely . I have a home theatre I never post about here , it s in a large space with vaulted ceiling and has huge slap echo .I can incorporate any remains panels and diffusors there it needs quite a but .I will also use large rugs etc to help the situation ,as I stated I am very interested in making it good not great .I cannot fathom not putting my art I have collected on the walls of my man cave audio room .THose days are behind me chasing the ultimate sound ,its hyper addictive and the diminishing returns a 10 fold often . I want a good listening space comfortable for three and maybe a game or two of English darts maybe some pool when not just zoned in .Its a difficult balance ,when I was in my 20s I had a impressive 14x18 arched type roof listening room with two chairs and 2x2 .I have vered away from that world after a lifetime of playing guitar etc. I will certainly play some music in this room too but mostly acoustic or a small tube amp with my electric 

I also want to thank everyone for there responses ,I wish I had an unlimited budget . But I am constantly rebuilding and working on my ranch and am breaking ground on a 3500 sq ft workspace for hotrod and motorcycle  fabrication .

oleschool OP bike guy all my life

Did someone mention bike/s!!!!!!!!!
This was just one I restored and sold off 10 years ago.
https://forum.audiogon.com/posts/2071431
BTW pool table sounds great!!!!!!!!

You always know when it’s a Ducati coming down the road with it’s Conti pipes (nothing else sounds like them) 750 Honda Firestorm with pipes came close.
It’s said Fabio Taglioni (I bow my head) the man who made Ducati and the 90’ inline V-twin, labour for months over what he wanted it to sound like.
A it came to him that very human spent 9 months hearing/feeling his/her mothers heart beat, and that was the firing order he mimicked. It’s in the old coffee table book the History of Ducati
https://www.motorcyclealliance.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/bike-1.jpg

Cheers George

Oleschool, I did look at the acid product your going to use. When it comes out right you can obtain some very cool results. First time I saw it was in a bar and it really looked cool. You want to have variances in the colors to give it that patina look. I chose a rust color and it did not come exactly as I wanted. A lot depends on the porousness and finish of the slab. If memory serves me, length of time with the product on the surface helps in obtaining that patina look I was mentioning. I also think muriatic acid can be used within the application? I also used a stiff brush to work the product in attempt to get that off set in color. It has to be sealed after completing. That really brings the floor to life. Because its not a commercial building a good sealer should last you a while. I used a water based sealer, I'm sure they must have oil base as well? With Cali. that's likely an issue?
Several epoxy products out there. Its a 2 part application, and don't know if its a first time DIY project? Once its down it's easy to maintain. I've seen it dusted with flakes to give it texture and a certain look. However its a solid not transparent look.
I'm jealous of your of the grid power approach. I'm on 40 acres surrounded by 300. I use a water stove. Essentially a boiler, with pipes underground that pump through a heat exchanger. Its about 100' from the house. Heats the house and hot water. I use it year round. Lots of cutting and splitting  of wood. Emerald ash borer are killing all the ash trees so that's what I've been harvesting here in NC. It migrated down from Canada. If I were to do it again I would take your approach. I have a stream behind the house and I get sun all day. Too far along in the game now for me, but I tip my hat to you with your off the grid living! I Couldn't imagine living any other way. Good luck...

jakesnak
Thanks, im two miles from a power pole lol. I am seeing a trend to adapt dc. power to drive electronic lately.I have a lot of control over to power generated here As for the acid If I go this route it will be prepped thoroughly .They also have an etching product to apply first .

georgehifi
I agree on the pool table ,I don't want this thread to go towards bikes although I have built many .I had a 916 for awhile also. ..