I'm beginning to wonder...

Alright, so I have read previous threads about misspellings and poor grammar in Audiogon posts, and I have even joked about it myself in one thread a long time ago. In fact, while I was poking fun at a misspelled word in the thread, I misspelled one myself and was called out for it!
What I am beginning to wonder about is what percentage of Audiogon members speak (or write) english as a first language. Almost every day, there is a classified or a post that is nearly unreadable. The strange thing is that the post will be answered by several readers with no mention of the poor writing. It is so common, that I am wondering what pecentage of regular members are living in the USA. Does anyone have an idea?

First I am truly spastic and typing is especially hard please try to hold in your inate desire to point out my typos.
Second I am dyslexic certainly not an expert writer and have no command of the language. Again avoid flame throwing for my bad writing.
This thread concerning general U.S. audiophile literacy has been discussed ad naseum.
The truth is obvious, we all comunicate in order to thrive. I think there is abundant evidence that the syntax chosen by the author demonstrates that English is not their first language. I know that in the urban mid Atlantic the illiteracy rate is on the order of 10-20%. I hope that answers you.
Perhaps a better language topic woould be "How do you begin an ad?" I have seen "Up For Sell" a few too many times.
The strange thing is that the post will be answered by several readers with no mention of the poor writing.

Some don't recognize the poor writing themselves because of their own poor language and writing skills, and others look at these flawed attempts at communication as ok as long as the real meaning of the post is understood.

What I am beginning to wonder about is what percentage of Audiogon members speak (or write) english as a first language.

All we can do is guess at that answer. My thought is that probably 75% of Audiogon members speak and write English as a first language, the rest are ESL (English as a Second language).
I agree!
Compose in Word, spell-check, then post to Audiogon.
It shouldn't have anything to do with who you are or where you're from.
Anyone who cannot spell a word more than one way is creatively challenged.
If you think that it's rough over here, you ain't seen nothin' yet:


btw, this post if from today.
In fact maybe this post IS from today, not if. See, now I'm doin' it too!
I am not sure what percentage of Audiogoners may be native English speakers. I for one was born and raised over the Pond. The Queen's language is not my first language, not by any stretch of the imagination. It's my 4th one, hence my occasional lapses into homophones, gallicisms, and otherwise unusual syntax. There are myriads of reasons why some Audiogoners may write with rickety grammar or creative spelling. . . ESL is just one of them. . . then there is dyslexia, a very common condition in the North American human male. . . some of us may have excelled in subjects other than English composition during our long gone school days. . . some of us just plain forgot to remember that 'similar' may sound 'familiar', yet it does not spell 'similiar', that 'audition' has really 2 'i's instead of 1, but that 'comparison' has only 1 instead of 2, and 'and many of us are just tired by the end of day, and we rather apply our finesse to the Muse rather than to the pen. . . hence our admitted imperfections. G.
And now, how about a rousing chorus of that Mac Davis Country classic:

Oh Lord it's hard to be humble
When you're perfect in every way.
I can't wait to look in the mirror

'cos I get better looking each day
To know me is to love me

I must be a hell of a man.
O Lord it's hard to be humble
But I'm doing the best that I can.

I used to have a girlfriend
But I guess she just could'n't complete
With all of these lovestarved women
Who keep clamouring at my feet.
Well I probably find me another
But I guess they're all in awe of me

Who cares I never get lonesome
Cause I treasure my own company.

Oh Lord it's hard to be humble
When you're perfect in every way.
I can't wait to look in the mirror

'cos I get better looking each day
To know me is to love me

I must be a hell of a man.
O Lord it's hard to be humble
But I'm doing the best that I can.

I guess you can say I'm a loner

A cowboy outlaw tough and proud
I could have lots of friends if I wanted
But then I wouldn't stand out from the drowd

Some folks say that I'm "egotistical
Well I don't even know what that means
I guess it has something to do with the
Way that I fill out my skintight blue jeans.

Oh Lord it's hard to be humble
When you're perfect in every way.
I can't wait to look in the mirror

'cos I get better looking each day
To know me is to love me

I must be a hell of a man.
O Lord it's hard to be humble
We are doing the best that we can.
Compose in Word, spell-check, then post to Audiogon.

Although it can sometimes be pretty comical when people over-rely on spell-check, and don't bother to proofread what they've written. Spelling and grammar checkers often will not flag an error in which the words are spelled correctly, but the wrong word is used.

A while back I had occasion to create the following test sentence. The spelling AND grammar checker in Microsoft Word 2002 did not pick up any of the six errors I introduced:

Intended sentence: "I wish to convey my compliments to the chef."

Sentence with 6 errors introduced, none of which were picked up by Word 2002's spelling and grammar checker:

"I wise to convoy me complements two the chief."

-- Al :)
Sadly, I consistantly have errors in my posts. Not only do I live in the USA, but my father was a high school English teacher who would berate us for any and all grammatical errors in both written and spoken English; so I have no excuse.

In fact, I am the guy at work who everyone comes to when they have any written correspondence to send out. I am the defacto internal grammer-nazi. But if I don't spell check, as I don't on these posts, I mess up both the spelling, and the grammer. If it's a classified I just edit, if it's a post I just look like an idiot. Well, all of us are pretty much idiots since we spend all this money on making something sound 0.000005% better. So, I just take solace in that fact.
I consider myself a good speller, but sometimes I submit a post without previewing it and find a misspelled word afterwards. Sometimes my fingers are like toes and so there are some typos as well. I think maybe other people have a tendency to do this as well. However, there are some posts where it is obvious that the person is not only a poor speller, but they also have a problem expressing themselves clearly.
the basic question is:

why is one so compulsive about the written word ?. i believe audiogon is primarily a forum for conversing about subjects of an audio nature.

there are other forums on the internet where criticisms of the sort raised in this and another thread are appropriate.
HEY- This is America!! Speak Spanish!!
Mt, you may have missed that this is a written forum and the discussions are in writing. Also, in case you're interested I have an old keyboard with at least one working SHIFT key. If you'd like it...

Seriously though, written communication is fast becoming a lost art. Gutter English has become the norm in speech and texting is killing off what's left of the rest.

So we're back to an old position: adapt or parish... ;-)
Has no one heard of iSpell?
It's a simple download, and it's free. I know it works with all versions of Internet Explorer above v.5. There may be apps for other browsers as well.

It works from the 'Tools' menu in IE, or if you happen to be on a forum, there's even an icon in the posting window of current versions of v.Bulletin. And you can double click a single word to spellcheck it, just like in word processing programs.

No more whining ;-)
I appreciate all of the responses, but I think my question was a little misunderstood. A lot of the responses are from members who obviously speak english, but are apologizing for being sloppy. I am saying that some of the "english" is so outrageously incomprehensible that it can't be fairly said the the writer even speaks the language. While I'm at it, one more gripe. Posts that read like this:
"Opinions wanted on using X231/J with 455XP".

How can I have an opinion when I don't even know what these two components are? We all know what a DQ10 is or an MC275 but some people are using obscure numbers without brand names. I am always left sitting there and wondering if it's only me.
does anyone dispute that the subjects of diction, spelling and grammar does not belong on this forum ?
If you don't recognize the model numbers it is probably safe to refrain from offering guidance on their interaction. Or, if you prefer, in Audiogonese: If you dont recognezd the modela numberos it si probably saft e0t refarin form goddering gu9idnace on their intiehroe.
Of course you are right Viridian. All that I am saying is that if someone like myself, who spends way too much time reading about all of this stuff can't make sense of the numbers, it's almost like telling an inside joke to a friend in front of other people who have no idea of what you are talking about.
Obviously I do.
What's a DQ10 or an MC275? Are they American things? I'm one of those foreigners not in the U.S., although I did visit the U.S. once in 1983. The border guard asked me why I was entering the country. I said it was because the guy driving the car woudn't stop to let me out before we reached the border. Boy, was that the wrong thing to say. Those U.S. border guards don't have much of a sense of humour. I was so traumatized by what they did to me I haven't tried to go back since. My native language is English by the way. I spell words wrong sometimes.
Well i do not think The USA is the place you go to hear English being spoken at its best....Shall we start with George W. Bush?
Perish, not parish. The phrase is, "Adapt, or perish."

Grammar is only half the battle; vocabulary is the other.

Back when British Caledonian was still flying, my wife and I were waiting to depart an afternoon flight on one of their Boeing 707 from DFW (Dallas) to Heathrow.

I purchased a magazine in the departure lounge and read it completely during the long flight. The pretty British stewardess who took care of us was friendly, so I teased with her each time she came and spoke with us.

During her final pass through the cabin I offered her the magazine as I had completely exhausted it's contents. She looked at me and smiled as I held it up and said, "Give it to another passenger if you have no interest, after all it is in English."

Her face brightened and in her beautiful British accent replied, "I beg your pardon, but it's written in American."

I'll never forget that, still laugh to this day, wish I could hug her for making the trip so memorable.
"We have really everything in common with America nowadays, except, of course, language".

Oscar Wilde
Would you correct a person's poor speech habits if you were face-to-face with them?
I'd consider it presumptuous and rude.
Albert Einstein, Thomas Edison, Leonardo da Vinci and W.B. Yeats - notoriously crummy spellers, all.

So you can spell?....what else can you do?
Mr t this is an open forum that usually leans toward audio but also interacts on tangential subjects such as posting about audio.

Grammar, spelling, syntax, vocabulary, country of origin and inability to capitalize letters all have a place here if a member posts it.
does anyone dispute that the subjects of diction, spelling and grammar does not belong on this forum ?
Frankly Tennis, it's a shame the issue has to be raised at all - so in that regard, I (technically) agree with you. HOWEVER Tennis, in my opinion, the value of (any kind of) forum lay first in the accuracy with which the participants communicate their ideas/information/questions. If a person feels they have something important/interesting to share, why wouldn't they respect their own ideas by delivering them as clearly as possible,

It is the people for whom English is not their first language, who I find usually make the biggest effort to be clear, and apologize for their mistakes beforehand ;-) While native English speakers seem to care less about butchering their mother tongue.

With free programs that can fix it all for you with the click of a mouse, I think there is simply no excuse for sloppy spelling, typos, and grammar. They are the medium through which we communicate here, and deserve to be as clean, clear, and "noise-free" as we demand in our audio signals. Otherwise, why listen to them?
Nsgarch -- good points, very well put, especially your observations about those for whom English is not their first language.

But I would qualify the statement about "free programs that can fix it all for you ...." to reflect the fact that the programs may leave a lot un-fixed, and can sometimes inspire false confidence which fosters carelessness -- see my previous post in this thread for an amusing example :)

-- Al
Al, you're quite right of course -- there is just no substitute for human proof-reading ;-)
one can chose to comment or ignore or accept that which may be annoying. why not forgive and let it pass instead of commenting on it ? there are priorities in life. grammar, diction and communication on this form should be left alone. there is no need to comment. comments probably won't do anything. it is just letting off steam and a waste of time.
Tennis, once again I (technically) agree with you (comments by themselves aren't much help), HOWEVER Tennis, again, in my opinion, I think it perfectly alright to ask people to help improve the quality of communication so we all benefit, if at the same time one offers ways to help others in doing that. And in one's own efforts, to follow the golden rule -- don't write anything you wouldn't want to read!

I think the OP was simply trying to raise awareness (yes, Roxy54?) Not everyone will respond. Hell, not everyone will read this thread! But if we are going to (try and) communicate with each other (especially about technical stuff like audio) I think a little precision in communication couldn't hurt?

Anyway, I disagree that mentioning such things is a waste of time! In fact, I think it should be mentioned regularly just so folks remember that someone is in fact reading your post and trying to understand what you mean.
Are you talking about English or American. There is a big differance. True English speaking people don't speak American.
Are you going to alienate people, young or old that don't meet your standards or people like myself. I and many others are Dyslexic or have other learning disabilities. Like this reply, it takes me a while to reread a few times, just minimize mistakes.
You could of course just put them down like others have through out thier lives so they will not participate in forums like this one. It took a long tome for me to want to partcipate in these forums for this very reason. Telling something to someone one on one is much better than insulting them in type so everyone can see it. Hope you never make mistakes and someone embarasses you in public.
A better question is how many Audiogoners who live in America consider English to be their 1st language. For me it is third. So sorry for my occasional misspellings and awkward grammar!
I will let this be my final post on this thread which I initiated, because I never really got any feedback on the question that I was asking. I really wanted to know what percentage of our members were posting from overseas, since some of the english was so incredibly unreadable. I did not, and certainly do not mean any offense to people who make small grammatical and spelling errors in a post, which I do all of the time. I also did not mean to offend persons with dyslexia. I wasn't even talking about them. I don't want anyone to stop posting for fear of criticism; I was only asking a question.
Roxy54, whom do you expect would be able to answer your question: what
percentage of our members were posting from overseas?

I'll venture to say not one single member could answer this question.

Only an Audiogon administrator could answer the question, and only if
Audiogon kept statistical records based on geographical membership, or if an
Audiogon staff member took the time to tabulate the results.

In short, a real answer to your question is highly unlikely.
No problem here. I was just sounding off. There have been a few threads criticizing peoples spelling and grammar when asking or responding to threads here on Audiogon. I think people should take it easy. These threads should be look at as more like text messaging than anything. People now do lots of texting and if you understand a text message for the most part these forums should be easy, u no. IMHO.
Hey Roxy 54,
While I'm at it, one more gripe. Posts that read like this:
"Opinions wanted on using X231/J with 455XP".

How can I have an opinion when I don't even know what these two components are?

Consider, maybe it's part of the vetting process, if you don't know what X231/J or 455XP are, the poster probably doesn't want your opinion about them. Of course, everyone else knows those two suck when used together, unless there is a clever little clock in the room, in which case they will transform your system into a live band :?)
Douglas_schroeder, the misuse of "parish" was intentional. I was trying to be funny, hence the smiley. Oh, well, guess I'll just have to keep my day job...
Fpeel, and here I thought you were being religious, IE

"Oh heavens, parish the thought :^)".
Fpeel, Not surprising at all; I could surmise from your writing that you take care in your thought process, which is why it would have been an uncharacteristic error. It certainly would have been ironic to point out the importance of one's vocabulary, while tripping on a simple homophone.

I'll not treat your humor so lightly in the future! ;)
This is a good general thread and people should try harder to be understood. I use a spell checker as often as possible.
Stay with it. ItÂ’s getting very interesting.

I tried to start a thread about where people are from and the languages they speak and it never showed up.
Go figure.
Dis wuz a simble poost on spellin end know itz outta controllll.
This thread should have been titled

"I'm beginning to wander."
Now, we all need to break out in a Chorus of "I Wonder as I Wander"! :)

Now, we all need to break out in a Chorus of "I Wonder as I Wander"! :)

But that would be in violation of the Geneva Convention.
Who you callin' a homophone?!!
Would you rather call you a Dictaphone? (You know, a phone addict)
Would you rather I call you a Dictaphone? (You know, a phone addict)

There, I got it right that time.