Hello Chap_cat
I didn't want to say second hand what a component was like previously, but a friend of mine was quite happy with his Jolita CDP but only after some NOS tubes were installed. He now has a Muse CDP, though.
I'd like to know if your plans for getting into better audio gear are the beginings of a possibly lengthy system building event, or a one and done upgrade.
Other's and myself have alluded to the acquisition of an integrated amp as a erstwhile and promising step up from your now system. In fact every noted approach here is a 'better than' option than what you presently have on hand, and are close to your desired sonics goal.
If this is the begining of some lengthy endeavor, or a one and done affair, or your choice is to go with hollow state power, some research on your part is necessary. Some honest soul searching too will help.
If it's the former, start at one end and go to the other. If it's the latter, tote your transducers along and pick out what pleases you and them! With your budget in mind, naturally. To heck with anyone else's thoughts.
My last note on who's helping who, here is simple, if a person has absolutely nothing to gain by sharing their time and experiences with you, and they aren't telling you of someone they know who has the so called 'right thing' for sale just now, it's most likely their statements are altruistic on the whole.
The 'wolves' Dave mentioned are those who have another agenda on hand when they are espousing their own recommendations. Some even go so far as to contact posters off thread and offer so called super deals! I'm quite leary of this approach as it is then tainted, regardless how well meaning a person might have been at the onset. IMO.
Threads are for gathering info, thoughts, ideas, and resolutions other's have accomplished during similar trials. It’s not a 'want ad', per se.
RE Underwood claims
…or anyone else’s calims for that matter as was already pointed out, are merely claims. Subjective notes to promote sales. I’ll not go so far as to say these claims aren’t valid whatsoever. The truth of the matter however is determined by yourself. Their validity is aided by their reputation. I’ve met and talked to a bunch of folks who are very, very, happy with modified units done by these aftermarket resources.
…. And I don’t begrudge them making money from it. It does seem to affect the value of the piece though. Sometimes for good. Sometimes for ill…. And I am considering having one of my pieces modded later on… maybe.
Ever how ya wind up doing this, it seems to me that without a fine source component providing a good signal up front, one won't be able to make up for lack of it later on in the chain downstream.... unless the thought is to replace this new/now CDP later on. if that's the case, the OPpo 980H is a slam dunk, multi format player that yields great results in audio and can stick around as just a video player when the itch to move up strikes again. it can even be run as a preamp! Cutting costs even more so, initially anyways.
Again... I'd go slow… but that’s just me. I hate to waste money as I haven’t got much to begin with. |
Personally, I like the idea of going front to back, myself. Source, preamp, amp, speakers... either way however leads to a positive end, eventually.
Interjecting a new source, int. or pre & amp is going to be quite a shift in performance! Adding on the necessary cabling after that will also be quite an addition.
I think you are right in looking at just a source/CDP & an integrated amp... for now. Having a source which provides all of the info the signal has right off is way important! That's what the rest of the ritg is going to be working with afterall.
The deal between tubes and SS is simple.... SS is no better or worse than would be hollow state subjectively speaking. Tubes, do offer more options for the ears, via some tube rolling. So that has to be a consideration if you enjoy tweaking or just making simple changes to the sound systems signature from time to time.
The main thing is toting along your speakers if at all possible... or arranging an in home trial. That part comes only after you are certain you wish to deal with ... whomever you pick of the dealers you meet.
I don't see any of your listed possibilities as bad ones either. I would say though if you are in no rush or that $3K isn't burning a hole in your pocket to go slower. A CDP seems in order though and Rega makes some good ones with good reviews. I'd get as good as I could there for now be it Rega or otherwise.
In fact all of your short list is well represented in the 'preowned' mkt as well and that would allow you to get better return on your available funds/budget... unless you gotta have brandy spankity new, used components sure helps one escalate the preformance level of one's rig.
In conjunction with a resolving source, ASL, Prima Luna, and with a bit of tube rolling, a Jolita int could do just what you are looking for... and if preowned, both power cords and cabling additions will be avaialable too.... and the wires are sure important. They are the icing so to speak, on the cake.
Tote your speakers, ask questions about warranty & other policies, look at the cabling being used too. Listening to $2K to $3K components connected with $2K worth of wires is something I'd like to know up front... also see if they're using a power conditioner during the audition. I've overlooked that last bit in the past myself... and it's a very common practice to use them during presentations.
So are aftermarket footers, iso cups, and these too make an impact on the sound.. so do open your eyes when auditioning so you know what's what. I'm sure you're astute enough here, but I've been overly zealous in the past myself when being on the verge of a whole new rig!
Again.. I would just go listen... look... ask... and get a nice CDP first.
Come back in a few weeks with it and plug it into the power train you like most and go from there... You've two known quanities then, speakers and source.
Good luck, take care, and just listen to the music that gets your attention. |
Chap_cat
I'd add the new Bel Canto digital int with USB DAC to the short list only as an option to the Nu Force entry. I've not heard either BTW... just thought to mention it.
Also Macrojack is offering up solid advice here on that Oppo player. I bought one just as he did, for a video BTW, stop gap, source. I was and still am, amazed at how much improvement has happend in digital gear... and for the $175 tag? It's a no brainer indeed.
it's in my estimation, 75-80% the performance level of my $3K (MSRP) SONY XA777es CDP.
His other points I'd feel are as valid.
Being in sales, I'm pretty sure if your guard is up some, not a lot, you'll feret out the legit from the self serving.
Dcstep said:
“I don't see that variable sound and the opportunity to tube-roll is an advantage.”
I’m pretty sure if additional flexibility is to be had, it must be seen as advantageous. EX. More imputs, both RCA + XLR in’s & outs, remote control, all these features and/or benefits are additive aspects. The ability to interchange tubes, if one wishes to do so, is also an additional feature set, and thus, an advantage.
Dcstep also said:
I personally prefer to buy a designer's best possible work and enjoy it, rather than risk screwing it up with some half-baked scheme to "improve it" with some 60 year old tubes.
Half baked? Screwing it up?
In this instance, the “best” available design isn’t likely to be had for the budget in place. Designers do offer their work in various levels you know?
I suppose one can adhere strickly to a purist notion on all things and be quite happy. However to discount the possibility of improvement upon a given designers effort through aftermarket or optionally offered changes, is shortsighted indeed.
There are plenty of designers which offer upgrades to their equipment as standard operating procedure. BAT, Dodd, AR, Atmosphere, ART, Prima luna, and VAC, just to name a few afford a buyer their wares in varying performance and configuration levels…. And some of these upgrades involve only the change of the tubes being used.
These designers I believe also need to produce a design which can be supplied and supported by currently available parts, including the tubes they employ in their designs. I wonder how many of them, had they an endless supply of NOS tubes, wouldn’t use them in their builds or offer them as options at point of sale?
There is nothing half baked about tailoring or tweaking a system to the tastes of it’s owner/builder. My experience has shown swapping out the OEM tubes is one way to go about it and the results from the doing of it have always been improvement, in varying degrees, and occasionally, entirely.
After all, just how many of these 2008 offerings are 100% new, never been done before designs? They are just variations on much older themes…. Themes which at their time used what we call now, NOS tubes.
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Well, Dave ol’ buddy, it’s your choice of words mostly, and the notion user/owners don’t have the acumen to make positive changes to a certain topology which gets me.
I think what irks me here is how critical, undermining and simply misused, the term “half baked”, truly remains in your context…. As a pertinent definition for it is as follows….
“lacking mature judgment or experience; unrealistic.”
I neither lack experience, nor do I possess unsound judgement. I doubt those who do employ the use of tubes other than those offered by the makers find themselves at a loss there either. Perhaps we should ask them, huh? Or better still do it as you did here, just tell them they are all severely lacking mature judgment or experience; and they are unrealistic. Yep. That’ll go over quite well indeed.
Supplanting one tube for another, whose values are the same is not poor judgment. It is nothing more or less than using caps or resistors of varying labels, given their values are alike.
Going down that road a bit further, one should also say the OEM power cord shouldn't be changed, or one cable is as good as another... and why don't we just ask which speakers the desitgner used and buy them! the designer does know best. Right? How absurd.
Transistors, MOSFETS, chipsets, etc…. haven’t always been around? Designers even make changes there too! Well the cat's out of the bag now for sure.
I’m near certain that Dave has been granted the province of ‘speaker’ for the whole of the community too… or was it the overwhelming majority? It’s narrow minded to cast about suggestions such as the ones pertaining to changes of a designers efforts by end users as negative or unsubstantiated, and then follow them up by quoting some aftermarket modders (eg., Schultz)changes to the aforementioned designers effort, as vastly superior to the original product! Yed I’m sure I heard that somewhere … and recently too.
So which is it? Mod or not? It’s pretty obvious Dave hasn’t done much by way of tube rolling/experimenting.
Overwhelming majority my eye! If anything here is half baked, it’s that singularly offered sentiment Dave issued previously on tube rolling. It’s about as hard as changing out a light bulb… with about as many consequences.
Not once when auditioning a tube component have I said to myself, “Well, I’ll just change out the tubes ‘cause this sucks!” if it doesn’t sound good to begin with, or what I’m after I just pass on it. In fact I don’t eye the prospect of swapping out fresh, brand new tubes at all. Eventually though, like light bulbs, tubes lose their initial luster and down the way, do go out. I could too become desirous of a change and not have the entry fee to buy a whole new component. Then and there is a great opportunity for investigating other avenues. others do in fact take out the OEM tubes immediately! Supplanting their own preffered tubes instead!
No matter how you shake it, tube gear offers additional advantages over solid state merely by their nature. Don’t confuse that with performance though. That’s a whole other realm.
Chap_cat
If G. Carroll says you can preview a thing in your home, then that’s the ticket. I’d say he wants your business if so… and if there is no strings (restocking, depreciation, fees, etc.) aside from the norm… take advantage of it.
One last note on CDPs I’ll offer is the Cambridge 840c… One after market upgrader (modder) I spoke with of note, and directed me onto the Oppo, said this was a stunning CD player for the $$$... as he gave me those two for optional upgrades. BTW he wasn’t selling either one then.
It usually takes a good piece to make Robert Harley gush over it and he did with the 840c… the TAS reviews now online. Do read it.
I too thought well about the Jolita 1501 as a secondary unit some time ago. Did some looking around… asked some people I trusted but ultimately passed on it for a new HT system instead. In the doing however, I found others which for the price of a new jolita offered better build and Sonics... on paper. I’m sure it’s a solid choice though. I understand their support is good too.
This is the last thing I’ll add… call whomever you wish to buy’s product support team and see what’s up there before you lay out the long green. Nothing’s perfect, and things do happen. Knowing is far better than supposing with regard to support. That’s a biggie for me. Support. If G. Carrolls place will do whatever work is needed down the road for you, that’s all the better. IMO
this thing is all about what you like. Not necesarily what another likes. Tjhere's tons of paths to follow. Loads of gizmos to try out. numerous additive tweaks you can either make or buy.... and the bottom line always for me is like the optometrist says, "is this worse, the same, or is it better now?".. he'll never answer that one for you.
HAVE A GOOD TIME! Do let us know what you picked out too! |
Chap_cat
Sorry your forray into live auditioning wasn't quite to your expectations... Selling or stepping up a buyer is what salesman do.
In my area there is scant little 'customer friendly' audiophile outlets. Either they are incredibly arrogant & condescending to the customer or completely inflexible on price, or limit what one can preview in already setup systems. There is one outlet which is pretty good but is now just too far to visit.
Consequently, I've bought almost every piece in my system without audition beforehand. I've done a few system itterations as well during the course of the past eight years. The past five, intently. Given my own exp. I'd say doing the "Audiogone buy & try shuffle" is a worthwhile endeavor, provided good sense and a trust your gut attitude is in place up front. That and some goals of what you would like to wind up with in the end.
Personally, I'm here for the music and not a routine gear hound... moving in & out pieces just to try on for size. Which ever way you go, and there really is no wrong way...just longer and shorter ways... buying without trying first can and is an option.
For instance, the Rega Apollo which is in your price range new, could be supplanted for the Saturn, used. the Jolita amp new could also be stepped up to another level there or with another lable, if bought used. Depending upon popularity and price points, flipping the component if it's not your preff, is most viable then.
On the previewed compnents list I still have? Just two, my Sony CDP & my Thor preamp. The VSA VR 4JRs are gone... and what has replaced everything is far better... I never heard the Dodd mono blocks before buying 'em, or the Sonata IIIs or the Bel Canto DAC 3, or the Elrod pc, Halley PLC, or some of the cabling I now own, either. I am however very, very pleased with it all and to the point, am not considering my 'next' whatever purchase. Which IMO is where you are satisfied. No longer in the hunt, so to speak. that is a real relief too.
Being very honest here, what I got in my living room now is far better than what I have heard at several high end joints in my area. 90% of which was bought 'on the come' so to speak.
That Simm audio system got your attention... then it's evident that the CDP in that rig put out a fine enough signal for you? Maybe start there and move on down the line. Adding what you can as you can.
that's exactly why I said, "Slow down".
or just get an Apollo or Saturn here online along with a Jolita amp you like.... and use the Cable Co,. to try without buying, some ICs & PCs.
Some gear makers offer a 30 day in home trial with a money back guarantee! So there's another option.
Read the rags... ask the ones here who have bought loads of stuff what they think about a thing, and try to connect with those whose tastes correspond to your own.
.... and forget about prefection... as there is nothing perfect on this rock. you'll not go far wrong, if at all.
The only issue I see as a real problem for a person putting together a high end system is their own self... their ego in fact.
Buying without trying first can and does work... if you're smart and paitient. were it not for Audiogone and some other manufacturers I've met because of Audiogone, I'd never ever have been able to have in place a system on the level I own now. |
Dcstep
C'mon Dave. Really.
5%? Good bass only comes with SS?
Unless these sentiments were offered only as a jest, they smack of some prejudgement and shouldn't be afforded to someone who sincerely asks for additional honest perspectives without ensuring the joke is known.
Though it may well be your experience (s), I've found out otherwise... with several tube power trains I've heard or owned. So my take is just different from your own, albeit, it too, is consistent with a number of previous posters to this thread. Maybe it's not the equipment you show some decided prefferences to here, maybe it's simply an auditory thing instead. |
Dstep
I got your panties,sport!
You are as incorrigible and ignorant as you are prejudiced with your hero worship of Rowland gear.
You talk out of both sides of your mouth everytime it opens... nothing personal, though.
You can't say a negative thing and then try to cover it up in the next breath and make things out like no malice was ever intended. Even I can see through such a flimsy veil.
I’d say you were kidding, but that would take too much talent and you just ain’t got it.
At least home auditions for you take what, half an hour? Perhaps you could have the dealership or distributor play the thing over the phone for you and save everyone a trip charge?
Of course, I jest… so don’t get your panties all in a bunch about it.
The word ‘best’ that Grant said has a lot to do with things. IMO.
Best you ever heard? Best without exception? Best of all other likewise candidates? It bests those unlike ones?
I believe I did say previously, good bass is common with SS amps. It’s hard to get past that bit.
It can be had with tubes too… to the extent one could say, as I may have, “…..this is the best I’ve had”. Or simply feel what is happening is fine enough…. And there are lots of other factors in the mix too… Not just the amp type being used.
True also Gman, the VAC 160 music blocksamps simply do not work well in the bass department with at least one other speaker system too, the Andrea by Eggleston, according to another member who gave them a shot and related his thoughts about it to me. So again, system matching remains a big deal.
Was it the speakers fault? ….or was it the amp’s fault? …
And then can we say always in every case which is truly best or even best for a given application?
I really, really don’t think so. Not 100%, and not 100% of the time.
I can only relate that which I know, so my notice as to whatever level of good or bad I get is based on my tastes, and subjective impressions. I guess that’s all anyone can actually be saying when they espouse similar summations.
Like belly buttons, everyone’s got one.
As our new Jolita owner said about his take on the bass the plannar speakers he heard in San Antonio. He seemed to like that setups bass.
I’ll admit also once the DD 15 sub I got recently was mixed into the rig, I was more pleased. I will sure stand on any previous accounts prior to the subs arrival however, and still say I’m getting fine bass information and presence.
With the sub running it’s better.
Whatever it takes is whatever it takes, and we all remain judge and jury on what’s ‘best’… for us…. Not another.
That’s the most understated caveat around here which remains unsaid, but is soon understood to go without saying it. |
Chap_cat
congratulations! There's no right or wrong here really. Just faster and slower.
Many tend to agree it all starts up front with the signal producer or source. Walter's dead on there. I was worried for a while.
The 'no' rack situation is too bad... but it's just for a bit. I hope you do your homework there too. it's a real aspect/portion of a system that truly does impact the sound. it took me a long time to come around on that topic too. There used to be a whole lot of "yeah, sure!" in me about so many things audio which just didn't seem to be real additive items... like wires, power conditioning, isolation and yeah, racks too.
One note you'll find here and elswhere when perusing various topics.... "Everything makes a difference."
...and it does. One of the very best moves I made to my system was adding a substantial component rack and sure wish I had done it sooner once I heard the after effects.
Until it's time for investing in a rack, there's plenty of short money solutions for isolation.... and that spinning tube CDP should have some nice footers gotten for it. there's tons of 'em out there but I'm sort of liking a cuople types.... Bright Star nodes, and Herbies Audio labs iso cups... his tube rings BTW really do work well and aid imaging... all the above items are like from $5 - $30 ea. and can be bought as you go .... herbie's also offers a 90 day in home trial of all his products. Cheap... lot's of time for audition... and a money back guarantee.... I'd call that a slam dunk for solid inexpensive gains in performance.
I'm glad you got with Walter in the end and you're on your way! Add another few weeks to the projected waiting time for the gear to run in as well, though I'd say it'll all be ready or very close to it in 150 - 300 hrs... perhaps less but I'd not get my hopes up.
Enjoy.
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ONe good thing to have now or soon will be a good source for tubes. I've had great success with aNDY AT Vintage Tubes and THE FOLKS AT AES (Antique Electronic supply in Az.), as well as some private sellers here on the 'gone.
RCA & Telefunken 12AT's will also be worth investigating, as they too are along the same warm smooth sounding tubes as the Orange Amperexs. Both the Orange & Green label Amperex will produce a smoother richer sound than the Russian or Chinese tubes, IMO. That being said I do own some Russian EL 34 tbess, 'CED Winged C'.
ON the isolation and acoustic treatment front this guy here has done a wealth of investigating there and offers much info which is most helpful....
http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/index.htm
...from this site there are links, instructions, and so on to DIY many if not all of your acoustic treatments. if time is an issue there are those too that provide kits you only need to asemble and place such as...
http://atsacoustics.com/
Loads of other room treatment info & DIY stuff abound on the web and are not hard to find. Quite simple things by way of home furnishings can prove a real benefit too, such as Drapes, Tapestries, Area Rugs, plants (real or fake), etc.
Enjoy. |
Chap_cat
Again, congrats on getting your feet wet. AS is being said… it takes time for good things to arrive. Searching, deciding, buying, shipping, and then breaking in. The last one being the hardest for me. The buying isn’t terribly easy either. ;-)
I really don’t see myself as a ‘tube hugger’, ‘half baked’, or one that just serves up something they ‘think’ is the case. I merely share what I’ve done.
I’m not a ‘sand lover’ or ‘switch gear’ devotee either, though I’ve had my share of SS gear. Tube and SS gear, and now an all tube power train.
Somewhere down the road I probably will try out some of these new ICE pieces.
I’m not against any topology, nor 100% for any. I’m about a sound I like. Period. I think it’s like anything else, red heads, V8s, front wheel drive, scooters, vanilla or chocolate.
Whatever floats your boat… past that it’s all rhetoric or subjective controversy.
The notation made about SS having better bottom end isn’t always true. Sure enough the inherent traits of SS provide speed, damping, and by so doing, control. Large drivers that are controlled better do seem to give off better slam and presence generally speaking.
However I’ve not tried 250 wpc tube amps either… or anything like the big VTL monsters pumping out 600+ wpc. I’ve heard big CJ amps pushing 170 per side and found the bass very good… on plannar speakers too! As you said yourself relating the visit to G. C’s outlet.
Hang in there, my exp shows bass to be the last player in the game to show itself for true. Cables, components, and definitely with power cords… always the bass isn’t set well initially and seems to develop last. It can also be enhanced simply by tweaking the rack itself.
Prior to the following comment, and so I am not misunderstood, some clarity for us all needs be interjected…. again.
From the Meriam Webster free online dictionary:
Advantage - noun
1: a factor or circumstance of benefit to its possessor
2: benefit, gain.
Now, first hand, you are about to realize the advantages tubes have over solid state for their possessor..
A primary factor or circumstance presented to you now is the user serviceable parts, eg., da tubes demselves! No need to ship off the box to a dealer or upgrader for exchange, replacement, etc.
The benefit is both time and cost savings for no other reason than that of not incurring added shipping expenses back to the seller, and thus no extraneous delays.
A second noteworthy ‘gain’, or ‘benefit’, is the sound can be tuned, without degradation of the signal by passing it through attenuators, ie., tone controls.
A third, will be in the opportunity to increase the stock performance level in this exchange… ie., the user serviceable parts.
Your mention of the noticeable less bass presence is one item I’d point to in reference to a performance increase. (Folks, don’t make me go find the definition for ‘increase’ please… looking up advantage about wore me out), simply by making a single change of my 12AX7’s in my preamp, I gained, imcreased, and improved the level of bass in my system. In fact the NOS Amperex white label Bugle Boys improved extension at both ends of the spectrum, along with added leading edge definition.
There’s no way around that being a performance level boost.
I’d also say those not inclined to move wholely into the glass menagerie are predisposed to chide or discount the obvious and are less intelligent about the genre for no other reason than the lack of experience with tube systems.
Take care to differentiate between offered speculation and real world practice.
I have seen items right out of the box sound extremely good. Great in fact, and their level of noted increase after run in was far more than any 5%. An assessment of only a 5% gain being the end result after break in borders on the ridiculous… or the most conservative assessment I’ve ever heard stated so broadly. Or it’s a clue to the knowledge level of it’s issuer.
There will be far more than any incremental increase. Just pay attention, and do some research in the meanwhile on what tubes do what, in general.
One item which will seem to speed up the tube running in process is just leaving the thing on. Even without volume, it’ll help. With volume it’ll help more. Even if it’s low.
Simple Google searches on the tube type will reveal all sorts of info. Tube halls of fame, tube museums. Specs. Schematics. Predominate sonic signatures offered by critics and users alike, and more.
Tube vendors previously named in this thread will further enlighten you to some degree, though many are hesitant to say a certain this or that will do such and such in your gear. For many, what happens when they exchange tubes in & out of their gear is a lot of fun.
For me the mechanical aspect is no fun at all…. The end result is my fun.
My paitience level predisposes me to not spend lots of time researching and talking about things lately. I used to do just that. The best answer and always issued here is this:
”you’ll never know for sure until you try it in your rig.”
It’s also solid advice, just not always what one wanted to hear.
As I’ve said before, there’s no such thing as perfection in this world. Tubes are no exception. A trade off or compromise might be the end product. With the Amperex tubes I mentioned here, the subjective trade off was a more forward (geographically) set sound stage in my system. Not to worry though as other factors can amend that positioning… IF desired.
Oh, this just in, the same goes for solid state, digital class amps, and switching amps.
That’s why it’s called a system, I suspect. The shortcomings of one item can be enhanced or overcome by the advantages of another as you go about adding & exchanging components in your rig’s building exercise.
Everything makes a difference. You judge if the made change is better or just different. Both can be acceptable.
I’ll offer these last thoughts, tube rings & isolation footers, and if you can fill those steel tubes supporting your rack, (which also usually adds to the bottom ends region) that too will have you well down the road to refining your systems attributes.
I’m very glad to hear your report as a satisfactory one. It’ll get better too.
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