Dear Audiorader, You wrote, "I find it an interesting theory that the higher voltage of the meter may be reading the small resistance in the cart as continuity." Either we are experiencing a problem of semantics or you really have not quite understood what Al, Atmasphere, and I have been saying. This has nothing to do with the voltage of a meter. It has only to do with the fact that some meters, especially but not only cheap ones, have a setting that only gives you a quick reading for continuity of a circuit vs that the circuit is shorted. This could be done via an LED that glows in one color vs another, etc. But the point is that in such cases, you don't actually see a resistance reading (always in "ohms"). Meters used to check "continuity" will not "see" a 5-ohm resistance at all. Such a meter will show continuity between green and red pins or between white and blue pins on your Lyra but probably not on your MM cartridge, which likely has a much, much higher internal resistance. But if you are using a real ohmmeter or a good digital meter on the resistance setting, such that you get real numbers in ohms, then you indeed may have a problem with your Titan.
Then there is an entirely separate issue that says you might not want to try measuring resistance across the pins on a delicate MC cartridge, because doing so can burn up the coils inside. Thus, you conceivably already damaged your original Titan by taking this measurement, and indeed in that case you truly may have "continuity" between pins. So, some guys who have your interests at heart are advising you not to make this measurement on your new Titan. (In truth, before I knew better, I made this measurement several times on a Koetsu Urushi cartridge I wanted to buy, and no harm was done. The Urushi has a 4- to 6-ohm coil resistance, similar to your Titan(s).) |
In the old days it was not a good idea to do a resistance check of an MC cartridge because the meter would put a substantial DC current supplied by a battery through the coils which might leave a magnetic field.
Then in the new days the DVMs put an AC signal through the circuit under test instead. The concern is really not a lot different- an AC current through the coils could demagnetize the cartridge somehow. In practice I've not seen it happen, but if you are concerned I would get a 50-ohm resistor and put that in series with the cartridge when doing the test, then subtract the actual resistance of the resistor from the reading. |
"I am going to throw the entire system in the ocean and take up another hobby."
NO!!!!
Give it to me first.
Then chuck yourself in the ocean.
Oh, do get it the right way round Audioraider... ahem ... ;) |
I don't want to bother you guys anymore but here is the update. I purchased a used Titan with the idea that if it was not the cart I could resell for the same amount. I received the new cart and installed. Based on your advice, I have not used the meter on this cart and it has never been hooked up to my phono amp. The new cart reads exactly the same as the old one. Much stronger on the right side. I will get the rewired tonearm back on wednesday and install. I dont have a lot of hope that this is the solution because when I switched the clips the stronger signal moved to the left side. If the tonearm rewire does not solve it then there are only two options left, that I can see, the table or my setup. I would figure there was a problem with the fozgometer but I checked the calibration with my CD player and, beyond that, I can clearly hear it louder on the right side. I have to move the right speaker back about 8" to get a center image but that causes other sound problems.
I have the table and platter perfectly level but I thought that maybe when I ran the table the 60lb platter might be shifting on the magnetic bearing. I see no side to side movement. It seems rock solid. As far as set up, I am using the DR Feikert analog protractor with the Lofgren Geometry. I have confirmed the spindle to pivot for my arm with Frank Schroeder at 222MM and I am dead on with both that and overhang. I have moved the head-shell in both directions and Azimuth with very little change in the signal output. I can twist the antiskate all the way to the left and the channels will balance, right before the needle skips across the record toward the spindle.
I am going to move the table to another location. It is a big job considering the extreme weight but I will get some help and move it on Wednesday. I really wanted to figure this out but if moving the table does not work I will drive it down to the Analog Room in San Jose and see if Brian can figure it out.
Thank you so much for your assistance, You are all great!
Arlan |
To be certain about correct relative phase, forget the ohmmeter and just try switching the red and green cartridge clips. |
Have you thought about getting your ears checked? I had a right bias in my system many years ago in the way you describe and went to get my ears syringed - and it disappeared.
My left ear had a far greater buid-up of wax than the right, which was reducing the ability to hear high frequencies clearly.
Just a thought... |
Hi AutoRaider,
Since you are using the Fosgate Fozgometer to help diagnose your issue, I thought you should be aware of the following advise that I receive from Audio Revelation when I bought a Fozgometer from them: "The "Right" channel shows about 1.5db higher than left. I've tried 3 Fosgates and all the same, so account for this when doing measurements. You can tell by switching the phono leads while doing the balance check. Its a small amount but good to know. Also, for me and 3 other customers we found directions on Fozgate backwards for which way to turn the headshell in adjustment. Whatever instructions say, try reverse: clockwise instead of counterclockwise! I know, crazy!"
So just be aware that the Fozgometers may not be perfectly balance itself.
FWIW. Anyone else seem the same characteristics with their Fozgometer?? |
Thanks Ddriveman, I will take that into account. I am at 5db but that does get me closer. As far as my hearing, I have thought about that but My CD player is perfectly balanced. I have to pull my spiked speaker forward 8" every time I want to listen to CD's. Just FYI, I have had 3 people email me with exactly the same problem, one of them has three of the most expensive tables in the world and many arms but on one table, no matter what cart or arm he uses he gets 5db higher on the right side. His other tables read perfectly. Thank god I am not alone with this problem. |
Hi Audioraider,
I reread your problem statement again amdit is puzzling especially since you ahev mounted a new cartridge and problem remains. So, it seems like its down to the arw or TT. Assuming its not the wiring for a minute (which you will know soon with your reiwred toenarm coming), then we have to aask if there is a mechanical problem with eitehr your amr or TT. You have said that your TT is level but what about your arm? Could you arm on its mounting board be slightly tilted? If you set the VTF to zero and balance the arm/cartridge to be level, does the arm tend to swing inward or outwards? Maybe your toenarm cabling is giving a little bias? Anyway, just my 2 cents.
Hang in there and don't give up. Get someone else to come listen and take a look. When I get a problem, it is sometimes good for me to just walk away and then come back to the problems a few days later and get someone to listen in also. |
Audioraider, if you swapped the arm wiring at the cartridge clips and the problem moved, its the cartridge.
However now we have 3 cartridges that all seem to have the same problem, so its getting less likely that the cartridge is to blame. I also doubt setup, and I also doubt that moving the 'table will do anything.
Right now I suspect that the problem is very close to the cartridge. It could be that the arm wiring is damaged right be the cartridge clips (although I am struggling with how that would work) but the other thing that is worrying me is that you might have DC at the input of one channel of your preamp, so that any cartridge you put on there gets damaged. The only problem with that idea is that if that were the case, swapping the channels would introduce the 'damage' to the other channel of the cartridge and it seems like that has not happened.
Since there are all dead ends, I suspect that there is a procedural error that is confusing things, like a channel that was swapped with the other but for some reason really was not, even though you were sure it was- some sort of thing that you are convinced of and so you can't see it.
If it were me at this point I would start from square 1:
swap the interconnect cables at the inputs of the amps and see if the problem moves
if no => amps, if yes => preamp
if preamp then swap inputs to the preamp (phono input since CD seems OK).
if problem moves then its the arm
if stays put then its the preamp
If arm, swap channels on the cartridge. if problem moves its the cartridge, if not its the arm.
Now I would do this and take notes, being certain that at each step you *change only one thing*. So this means you can't touch the volume or balance controls. Sorry to lay it out like this, but I can see why you are at the end of your rope... |
Ralph, note that in the first paragraph of his post of 12/11 Audioraider indicated that the new cartridge had not ever been connected to the phono stage, yet still measured identically to the previous cartridge (with the Fozgometer, I assume).
And the Fozgometer itself can apparently be ruled out as the cause of the measured imbalances since the imbalance followed the channel swap that was performed with the cartridge connections. And also because of the consistency that was observed between the measurements on the first two cartridges and the listening results.
It is indeed baffling. Perhaps another rope should be obtained, and spliced onto the first one....
Best regards,
-- Al |
Ralph, I would add to your list the experimental reversal of cartridge phase on one channel-- no matter what the ohmmeter says. Incorrect relative phase will definitely shift the image to one side.
Also, has each tonearm wire been checked with an ohmmeter to confirm that there are no leaks between the wires or from any wire to ground? |
Good point David. I had that demonstrated in spades at the recent RMAF. The complaint in the system was that the image was off to one side and it was being blamed on the amps. What was really going on was that the speaker was out of phase in one channel. As soon as that was corrected, the image was exactly centered. |
I don't know if this would be a contributing factor on not.In the 70s to 80s,I did some recording from LP's to tape,it didn't matter what system or combination of gear,the right channel always read higher than the left,if memory is correct . When I tried to match them up with the VU meters,I ended up with a imbalance between left and right channels. |
Audiorader, I am not sure this is even important, but when you say that the problem switched from one side to the other after you switched the pairs of leads at the cartridge clips, do you mean as measured by the Foz or did you also listen to some music and confirm that the lower output problem had now switched to the opposite channel in your whole system?
Apropos of the question of phase, I agree with Dave and Atmasphere that this could be the issue. One wonders whether your headshell is miswired so that in one channel the "hot" clip is really going to ground in the preamp, and the "ground" clip is actually going to the hot pin on the RCA plug. Thus all could appear to be correctly wired while in fact that one channel is out of phase with respect to the other. This defect also does serious damage to bass coherence and stereo imaging. It's hard to listen to, in fact. If your tt, platter, and tonearm mount are all level and plane parallel to each other, then phase error is a possible cause. |
I have solved the problem! Thanks to Atmosphere and many others great advice, I have found the problem or two problems to be more accurate. I started checking all of the components and found a bad 5687 tube on the left side of my Steelhead, that explained why I was hearing the image shifted so far to the right. The second problem is the Fozgometer. I have now received 10 emails from people who had read this thread and have had exactly the same problem. It seems that the Fozgometer has a design flaw and does not work in all situations. One person that I have been emailing with has three tables and found the Foz works great on two of his tables but on the third it always reads much higher on the right side. He has also changed the arm, cart and cable numerous times and has tried many different manufactures but the Foz always reads the same. He is having none of the center image sound stage issues that would be obvious with a right channel 5-6 DB louder than the left. Thank you all for your help. It seems that I put too much confidence in a piece of measuring equipment and since it was confirmed by what I was hearing I was convinced it was right. It was wrong and once I found the bad tube I was able to move the right speaker forward to match the left, set the Azimuth by ear and now my sound is chilling! |
Glad to hear the problem is finally solved, Audioraider. Thanks for letting us know.
In my (extensive) experience as an electrical engineer, it often turned out that when problem investigations involved baffling, confusing, or contradictory symptoms, there were two problems simultaneously present.
I'm left wondering, though, why the Foz's erroneous indication would have moved to the other channel when the cartridge connections were swapped. And why, as reported by one of your correspondents, the design anomaly it apparently has would be brought out by some turntables but not by others.
In any event, congratulations!
Best regards,
-- Al |
Sounds great.It's always nice to be able to enjoy your system. |
So, it WAS the phono preamp -- but as I said, not necessarily the gear itself; in this case a tube.
Has anyone contacted Fozgometer for their response/reaction? |
Great news for you, Audiorader. Like Almarg, I am wondering how it could be that the function of the Foz is turntable dependent. More likely there is some intermittent issue with the Foz so that it malfunctions only some of the time. I think I will keep on using my ancient Signet Cartridge Analyzer. |
Or just a simple digital multimeter! |
Digital multimeter solamente won't get you there without a lot of extra effort. |
Look inside the shield of the phono plug sleeves - that's where my problem was |
