Hurst motor rumble?


I have an HW19-IV with the stand alone motor.
When I drop the stylus onto a stationary object next to the platter, there is rumble as soon as the motor is turned on. Turn it off, the rumble goes away.

I removed the drive belt and tried again. No rumble. This means the noise is not coming through the platform on which everything sits.

Next, drive belt still disconnected,I dropped the stylus and spun the platter by hand. No rumble. (The bearing appears to me to be tight and well lubed so I don't think the noise can stem from disaligning of the platter bearing by the pressure of the belt.)

It seems obvious that the noise is coming from the motor through the drive belt to the platter. I am using a standard Hurst 600 rpm motor.

I always thought, apparently erroneously, that the drive belt itself damped motor noise. If any of you has a belt drive turntable, I would like to know what happens when you perform the aforementioned test. You need deep bass and may have to turn up the gain.
Can anyone verify that a "quieter" motor might reduce or even eliminate this rumble?
Has anyone done actual measurements of this effect and what are they?
rpfef
I'm confused. Why would you even "drop the stylus onto a stationary object next to the platter"? Unless you are cleaning the stylus and if you are you should mute the preamp.

Then you say to perform the test "you need deep bass". So are you actually playing a record? Nothing in your post states that this happens when you are actually playing a record?

If this doesn't happen when a record is playing, what difference does it make? Granted, it would probably drive me crazy too, but if it doesn't happen with normal use, let it go.

I just tried this on my custom HW-19 and it doesn't do it, but again I'm not sure that I completely understand?
The rumble is masked by surface noise when a record is played. As we all know, unheard vibration can cause audible effects elsewhere.
The fact of this vibration getting into the signal matters, I would think especially at higher volume.
It is irrelevant what I should or should not do when placing my stylus on a plinth mounted cleaning device. The fact of the rumble remains.
The vibration is clearly low-frequency. That's why I suggested you would need speakers capable of some bass. Also, since this noise is pretty low level, you'd need, in all probability, to turn up the volume to hear it well. I listen at pretty high volume but this noise can be heard (but only with the belt in place!) at low levels, also.
If you tried this test on your "custom" HW-19 with negative results with the drive belt connected and turning the platter and the needle resting on something attached to the plinth but not the platter, like a stylus cleaner, and your speakers reproduce 60hz signals and you tried the gain at high, then I conclude that my problem is solvable with a motor that has less vibration.
This is what I am trying to determine before putting money into it.

The secondary question, then, becomes what motor can I get at reasonable cost that has lower vibration than the standard Hurst 600RPM motor.
I know that VPI is now using a custom made 600rpm motor.
Still from Hurst, but not available from Hurst directly as a
replacement, you have to order it from VPI. I've read that it
is supposeably better, (not sure in what regards). You
could contact VPI and ask them.
Two suggestions.

1) install a rumble/subsonic filter http://www.kabusa.com/rf1.htm

2) try isolating the SAMA better with a compliant material like sorbothane. It is possible that motor vibrations are being transfer to you table via the platform.
It's hard to figure out what is going on.

But if you want a quieter motor, you can try the 300 rpm one. You can get it less expensively directly from Hurst (IIRC it's exactly what VPI uses) but you would have to get a new, larger, pulley from VPI.
I've never thought about "dropping the needle" onto anything that didn't have some kind of spiraling groove toward the center of the turntable. My tastes in music don't venture out that far.

If the noise doesn't happen during playback, who cares?
I for one commend RP for using the highly sensitive instrument he already had (his music system), rather than renting a vastly expensive instrument to do the same thing. Identifying the source of noise is pre-requisite to eliminating it, and that is always worth doing in a decent system.

RP, you might find that you prefer the Premotec 9904 111 31813 low torque motor, made expressly for audio turntables. It is 300 RPM AC.
Have you ever lubricated the bearings on your SAMA? If you only hear the rumble, when the belt is on and spinning the platter; it's obviously not being transmitted through the platform. If you can hear the rumble; a subsonic filter is not the answer. Those roll off frequencies below about 20Hz. Personally; I have a hard time imagining motor vibrations being transmitted through the drive belt, unless you have it stretched really tight. You might try moving the SAMA a bit closer to the platter, and see if it helps. You'd be unlikely to hear your platter's bearing, if dry or defective, without it being spun at playback speed. The platter bearing would be my first suspect. How long has it been since you thoroughly cleaned and lubed your 19's bearing?
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