How would you desribe Von Schweiket VR-4jr sound?

re: Kevziek's comments -

"Music lovers" generally choose the material (software) they listen to based on these 3 factors in this order:

1st. How much they enjoy the composition/songwriting
2nd. The quality of the performance
3rd. The sonic attributes of the recording

"Audiophiles" one could argue, reverse those priorities.

Unfortunately, the vast majority of music that rates highly by 1. and 2. above was NOT recorded with audiophiles in mind. Therefore, if your analysis is correct, you have just established that these speakers will not produce an experience that appeals to "music lovers" most of the time.

Now "audiophiles" on the other hand, generally are looking to go a little more high end than the JR's which apparently are not finished particularly well and certainly have arguable sonic compromises. (Complicated 4th order crossovers, rear-firing "ambience" tweeters, and ported cabinets disqualify it as far as I'm concerned.)

So the audience that will be truly happy with JR's is "audiophiles" who can't presently afford more, or "music lovers" without very discerning ears.

This probably explains why a fair number of JR's started showing up for sale used pretty early on in the product's life/hype-cycle. Which is not to say they don't work for some people - but clearly there are valid reasons that they don't work for others.

Whooooo.....! First of all, I DO like to stir things up a bit. Sorry for the delay in responding to all this, but I've been out all day.

But 2nd... Who said I haven't heard these? I've got better things to do than yabber about something I have no knowledge or interest in. I was seriously interested in the JR's as bedroom speakers when they first showed up, and I have about 2 hours of daytime cell phone bills talking with Kevin at VS to prove it. Kevin, BTW, was very helpful, very knowledgable, and had some interesting stories, too. The speakers just aren't for me. I didn't say they were bad. Maybe some people had that impression because I used the word "apparently" in regards to the finish? I said it that way because the complaints have been that the polyester satin finish is not durable in the long run, and there's no way I can know that without owning them. An audition doesn't tell you that. "Apparently" means that I'm granting some validity to those claims - not that I've never heard them.

re: Robm - My post was not about MY "logic". I was exposing the logic inherent in Kevziek's post, who said "I also wonder what recordings people are listening to...I'm afraid that some audiophiles choose equipment that makes their favorite flawed recordings sound better, rather than carefully choose recordings that are musical and coherent."

Well, if 95% of the recorded music over the last 50 years sounds better on other speakers, because they're supposedly "not as revealing" of the recordings' drawbacks, well then I'll take the other speakers right quick, Thank You. I was stating that KEVZIEK's OWN internal logic implies the JR's are not for musicphiles. I have no opinion on that except in regards to myself.
I obviously didn't make it very clear, but when I said, "So the audience that will be truly happy with JR's is "audiophiles" who can't presently afford more, or "music lovers" without very discerning ears," I was summarizing with some tongue in cheek, the outcome of Kevziek's reasoning.

"Complicated 4th order crossovers, rear-firing "ambience" tweeters, and ported cabinets disqualify it as far as I'm concerned." ---- I'm not going to get into a speaker design argument - been there, done that - but this is far from an ignorant statement. If you think it is, you need to do some study. A ported design actually limits ultimate extension, and a tweeter firing backwards out of phase - well you may like the "enhanced" sound, but there's no argument that it's accurate. 4th order crossovers - No. VS's version of cascaded 1st orders into a 4th order topography - Maybe. But not for me - and that's all I said - "as far as I'M concerned". Again, I didn't say that they suck and anybody who likes them is crazy.

re 9rw: I don't like to respond to that kind of question re: equipment - because it misses the point of the hobby. I don't believe in judging someone's ear by their equipment - which is more often than not determined by their pocketbook. Everyone's ears are different and we are all qualified to judge for ourselves, and post our opinions.
But to answer anyway, since you were so obnoxious about it - I'll just say that the equipment or $$$ end of the equation is not a limiting factor for me. I spend, on average, 3 hours a day, 7 days a week listening - which, like Arkio, doesn't thrill my wife. I've also studied music extensively and play 4 instruments. And I probably have more audiophile and non-audiophile rare vinyl than everyone posting on this thread put together. So there! :)

Anyway - I'm not sure why the JR crowd is so touchy about this, but clearly, they're not for everyone. There ARE quite a few changing hands rather soon after being purchased - I know, because I've been watching. Why, who knows. But it's not because the sellers are wildly in love.
So what? If YOU love 'em keep them - and tell other people you love them - but you don't have to bash people who don't. And vice versa, of course. If anyone interpreted my sarcasm as bashing, I apologize. The original poster asked for opinions. Presumably, that would include both sides of the aisle.

First off - it ain't me who's pissing. You bash people personally, and then hide behind the implication that if we respond we're turning this into a pissing match." Nice strategy, but, if you review my 2 posts I have not personally attacked anyone the way you are. To respond:

1. It was YOU who stated that non-audiophile, "flawed" recordings "SOUND BETTER" on other speakers. It wasn't me. Is "better" not better now? Your direct quote: "some audiophiles choose equipment that makes their favorite flawed recordings sound better, rather than carefully choose recordings that are musical".
And frankly, the reason I was sucked into this quagmire to begin with, is that with those particular remarks you were attempting to discredit other posters here who don't personally enjoy the JR's by questioning their equipment, music choices, and/or audiophile sensibilities. I objected to that - which was at the heart of my first post. Discrediting those who don't agree as probably having inferior systems or software is not cool. The original poster asked for our opinions on the speaker, not on what we imagine are each others' qualifications for liking or disliking them.

2. Nowhere did I imply "audiophile" to have a even a remotely negative connotation - that's in your imagination. If you think otherwise, then show us the direct quote. I posited that the audiophile's priorities are in a different order than the musicphile - which is a self-evident and accepted fact. You brought a value judgment to that, not me. And of course, no one is 100% audiophile and 0% musicphile or vice versa.

3. Albert Von Schweikert is obviously a knowledgable engineer and a very fine speaker designer. And a very astute marketer who crafts a sound that a lot of people like. So? We don't all have to personally prefer his choices. And I certainly DO know enough to know where the inevitable compromises lie. But that's theory - what matters is if we like how they sound enough to make them our primary "window" into the music, and some of us don't. No big deal, but according to you that must be because we don't know enough or don't have ears as good as yours.

Of course there is one other possibility - Have you for a moment considered that maybe we're hearing something you're not? If YOU don't hear something, does that mean it doesn't exist?

And by the way - have you asked anyone who LIKES the JR's what THEIR qualifications for liking them are? No? I didn't think so...

Post whatever you'd like - I'll refrain from any more posts to this thread.

I'm baaaaaack - I can't let this kind of behavior go, and I'm tempted to report it. Robm is an angry guy, that's OK with me. His post wasn't exactly accurate (that's an understatement) but so be it. But the intentional, in-your-face-lying by Kevziek is not excusable. There have been 26 posts previous posts asking for direct advice on vr4-jr's qualities for a prospective purchase. I made comments on 4 threads, all of which were solid advice and 2 of which were tilted in favor of the VR-4 JR's. IMHO the type of behavior exhibited by these two has no place on Audiogon.

Here is a list of the thread titles followed by whether or not I posted. In addition my relevant quotes are copied verbatim below along with a couple of their direct quotes from these same threads (an interesting read):

Thread Title----------------------------------------Post by opalchip
Von Schweikert VR-4 GEN.III SE -VS- VR-4 JR?........No
Von Schweikert VR-4 Jr Room and amp Requirements....No
Von Schweikert VR-4,Jr..............................No
Thiel CS6 to Von Schweikert VR4 JR - Am i Crazy?....Yes
Vandersteen 3A Sig vs. Von Schweikert VR4 Jr........Yes
Speakers that work close to the back wall...........No
Schweikert VR4-Jr vs. Gallo Reference 3 with SA.....No
Best Speaker Match for JC-1's : VMPS or Von S.?.....No
What speakers to replace Paradigm 100.2? Help.......No
Vr4jr and Contour 3.3, In the same league??.........No
Finish Quality of Von Schweikert VR4jr's............No
Von Schweikert VR4jr................................No
Finish Quality of Von Schweikert VR4jr's(#2)........Yes
Von Schweikert VR4jr's in a 15' x 12' Room?.........No
Please help me on a speaker selection...............No
Are the Von Schweikert VR-4JRs really all that?.....No
Is this nuts? (urge to try the VSA VR4Jr).............No
VR-4JR or USHER 6371.................................No
vr4 Jr vs. B&W Signature 805.......................... No
von Schweikert VR4 Jr ............................... No
Bag End TA15 vs. Von Schweikert VS4 series.............No
Von Schweikert VR-4,Jr. .............................No
B&W 703 or VR4 jr?.....................................No
VR-4jr or Gallo Nucleus Reference 3....................Yes
Von Schweikert VR-4 GEN.III SE -VS- VR-4 JR?............No
Von Schweikert VR4-Jr: Urgent Opinions Needed...........No

THREAD-- Thiel CS6 to Von Schweikert VR4 JR
Should poster replace Thiel CS6's with JR's? OPALCHIP says -"VR4 Gen. III se's maybe, VR6 maybe - not VR4jr's"

THREAD-- Vandersteen 3A Sig vs. Von Schweikert VR4 Jr
OPALCHIP says -"(Choose Vr4-jr's for) Rock, yes. Large scale Classical, maybe. Hip Hop, definitely. Jazz and acoustic - no way. The Vandersteens are what you would be happier with."

THREAD-- Finish Quality of Von Schweikert VR4jr's
OPALCHIP says -"Used JR's are showing up pretty frequently with resale prices fairly low (for some reason). Some sellers have priced them under $2000 already, and at that price I wouldn't complain."

THREAD-- VR-4jr or Gallo Nucleus Reference 3
OPALCHIP says -"I'm not going to get into what I would buy, because that's purely a personal preference. But if you must pick one of those 2 - my opinion is that the VR4jr's are both more versatile and musical."

KEVZIEK says in this same thread "Yes, the Cherry veneer is way too revealing of flaws, and I think the speakers should be finished better, particularly the Cherry. My pair is African Hazelwood, and they were a handpicked pair. My finish is quite good, but I do agree there could be more coats of a better urethane."

INTERESTING - "HANDPICKED". HMMMMMMM...

THREAD--Bag End TA15 vs. Von Schweikert VS4 series
Robm says - "Good for you! I love my VS speakers, but they aren't for everyone."

FUNNY - THAT'S ABOUT ALL I'VE SAID HERE AND BEEN BASHED OUTRAGEOUSLY FOR IT.

Hi Arkio - Yes it did cut into my listening time tonight, but you just can't let that kind of bull be perpetrated on a personal level. Heated debate about speaker design is fine, or audiophile vs. musicphile is fine*** - that's what the Audiogon boards are for. But nothing I posted even remotely justifies these falsefications and personal attacks. It's just nuts. I've really never encountered this kind of thing here before.

Also - one admission to Kevziek - in my first response to you where I said you were bashing me, I was incorrect. I had been looking at Robm's post and mixed it up with yours. So maybe it put you in a bad mood, but even before that you were warping my statements and intentions in your post, and put things on a personal level. With statements like:

"you criticize a brilliant engineer like Albert Von Schweikert for his engineering choices" - which I absolutely didn't and wouldn't do anywhere.

And "So, your implication is that... I'm an 'audiophile' with a negative connotation" - which I patently stated you misconstrued based on zero evidience, and that you're still asserting.

And you ask "What qualifications do you have in speaker design to so strongly criticize...?" - Of course, if you look back objectively at my first post, I hadn't strongly criticized ANYTHING. I had said the JR's weren't for me and stated why - plain and simple.

So it wasn't "bashing", and I apologize for calling it that - but it's sure wasn't nice, and I did nothing to provoke it. And it's completely out of place on a board where speaker design is the main topic of conversation.

And now, the obsequious "apology" to Robm321 for "how you've been treated here" must appear very odd to anyone who has read his insulting fusillades at other posters. (Sorry for the big words again.)

***BTW - Just for fun, here are the top 3 defintions of "audiophile" found on Google / Answers.com:

"1.au·di·o·phile (ô'dē-ə-fīl') pronunciation
n. A person having an ardent interest in stereo or high-fidelity sound reproduction.

2. audiophile
An individual who is very interested and enthusiastic about the sound quality of a stereo or home theater system. Sometimes, audiophiles are more passionate about the equipment being used than the music itself.

3. An audiophile (literally, "one who loves sound") is one who is concerned with achieving high-quality results in the recording and playback of music. Audiophile values may be applied at all stages of the chain: the initial audio recording, the production process, and the playback (usually in a home setting). The adjective "high-end" is commonly applied to audiophile vendors, products, and practices.

There is great skepticism outside the audiophile community surrounding whether these practices and products have the claimed effects on the listening experience, and there are often accusations of self-delusion. People on both sides of the debate concede that, since many audiophiles are laymen, they are vulnerable to exploitation by fanciful claims made by unethical vendors."

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Interesting, eh? Anyway, I really am done this time as I can't justify putting any more energy into this idiocy.