How to tell if a CD is Encoded?

 That should have been HOW, not IF —  thank you, Apple auto-correct… 

Hi Cheeg,

If it says "compact disc digital audio", then it is always PCM:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_Disc_Digital_Audio

If it says SACD then it is DSD.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Audio_CD

CD, being older, has very limited space, about 650 megabytes. DSD requires a lot more per song. The Wiki links I posted will show you the logo’s to search for.

The confusing part is CD’s, DVD’s, blue rays and SACD’s all share the same physical dimensions. Same diameter (120mm), same size spindle hole (15mm). Otherwise the data density and encoding is all different, except for hybrid CD/SACD’s which have both on one.

Best,

Erik

I should also point out, as far as I know, the only legal way to go from a SACD player to an external DAC is via HDMI for use with multi-channel DAC/processors. Even ripping SACD’s is difficult due to copyright fears.

There are however boutique music vendors like Blue Coast who let you download DSD files directly, and if your DAC supports it, play them. These files use DSF or DFF as the extension.

Best,

E

If it's this release it's the SACD, if not it's a CD only
https://www.discogs.com/Beethoven-Karajan-Berliner-Philharmoniker-The-Symphonies/release/3344481

All versions can be found here
https://www.discogs.com/Ludwig-van-Beethoven-Symphonien/master/30029

The word recorded should not be in the question.

Thanks Erik and folkfreak!  The discs do say "Compact Disc Digital Audio", so it sounds like they're PCM.  Probably Redbook, but there may be no way to tell.  I didn't realize CD's were exclusively PCM, or that DSD was only done on DVD's; good to know. 

But, of course, this opens up a whole nest of related questions!  I've been restocking my music collection with some of my favorites from the 60's and 70's (my original library was stolen), and noticed that many of them have been reissued or remastered.  Usually these versions are selling for much less than the originals, and I was wondering what might have been lost in the process.  Some of them say Compact Disc Digital Audio, some say DSD Remastered, one says "2008 Digital Remaster and Stereo Mix" (with no indication of CDDA or DSD), and another says it's a 2004 Legacy Reissue of the original 1986 recording, with no indication of CDDA or DSD. The crystal case says CDDA, but it's not indicated on the disc or enclosure, so I wouldn't bank on it (also, it was made in Mexico, so I'm doubly skeptical).  

Aside from pure curiosity, one of the reasons I'm asking is because my DAC is a delta-sigma (Benchmark 1), and I'm wondering if I would get better SQ from an R2R DAC, at least with the Redbook discs.  Any thoughts?  

PS to Geoff: good point; I should have said "encoded", not recorded. 

@cheeg you're still a little confused

RedBook = CD Standard = 16/44.1PCM

Any other PCM (e.g. 48/96) is not redbook and is not encoded on a CD, you can store these files on a CD ROM drive but it is not CD standard

SACD as a standard is always stored on a SACD format disc, not a DVD (that's another thing entirely). Most SACD are dual layer with one layer that plays SACD and the other that plays redbook

Higher rate DSD (e.g. dual DSD, or quad DSD) can be downloaded or played back from other storage media but there is no commercially available disc format for them

But it seems you have a plain old vanilla CD set

Thanks for the response folkfreak-- I did know that Redbook was the original CD standard format, at 16/44.1 (Sony-Phillips 1980), but I  thought that some more recent recordings were being pressed to disc in higher density/bitrate formats, such as 48/96.  Am I wrong about that?  Unfortunately, most folks have gotten used to calling all these discs "CD's", which makes things even more confusing. 

Your second to last paragraph says that there is "no commercially available disc format" for higher rate DSD, but that seems to contradict the markings on several albums I bought recently (2002 remasters of Rolling Stones such as Let It Bleed and Beggars Banquet), that say they are "DSD Remastered" -- are you saying those are remastered in DSD, and then re-converted to PCM?  I can't understand what the point of that would be.

I have commercial CDs with DSD marked on them. Rolling Stones early catelogue came out on DSD whenever. And they sound fantastic!

Yep. If it says "Compact Disc Digital Audio" it is one and only one thing: Redbook, which is PCM at 44.1kHz / 16 bits.

There’s no correlation in my mind between the encoding method and DAC reproduction or sound quality.

I will say that over the past 5-10 years, DAC’s are MUCH much better at playing Redbook than they were before, to the point they make hi res and DSD recordings much less relevant.

So if anything, I would say that listening to a modern DAC is important.

Best,

E

Myth vs Truth, DSD and PCM

https://www.mojo-audio.com/blog/dsd-vs-pcm-myth-vs-truth/

Important to note that a lot of SACD's aren't just re-issues, they are completely remastered. Listen to the one that sounds best to you, but we can't judge the relative encoding merits with those. 

All SACDs are DSD

some CDs are based off analog tapes that have been remastered in DSD

some DSD recordings can be purchased as CDs

we seem to be confusing the recording and mastering (which is interesting) with the final media (which is the relevant point of your question)

as far as commercial silver discs go its red book pcm or 128 DSD that's it! Standards are standards

@geoffkait - even the vinyl LP versions of those Stones records are pretty well regarded. DSD vinyl. Dude.
@folkfreak - as an afterthought, this goes to your point about the mastering v the final medium.

To which I’d add that you can also change how you listen to the final medium.  For example I listen to my red book upsampled to dual DSD, sounds better that way to me in my system

so to the OPs follow on question about ladder vs delta dig DACs, it depends 🤪

If a disc says "Remastered in DSD", doesn't that mean the contents of the disc are encoded in DSD?  If not, we really need to establish a lexicon.

@folkfreak -- you said you "listen to my red book upsampled to dual DSD" -- I don't understand.  If a disc is encoded as Redbook (16/44.1), that means a 16 bit sample of the analog waveform was taken 44,100 times a second.  How can you get better sound out of that track by upsampling -- aren't you limited to the resolution of what's on the disc?

Not at all @cheeg. Consider an analog pressing of an LP that says "remastered on a vintage Neve console from the original master tapes" that doesn't mean you're getting a tape, it just describes the techniques the mastering engineer used to create the final mix.

It's exactly the same in digital. When SACD first came out and DSD A/D became available it was a selling point to say "mastered in DSD" (such as the Rolling Stones issues that were mentioned) and many CDs and LPs were sold on this basis.

As to the value in upsampling -- agreed you cannot create information that doesn't exist but there is much logic to a higher sample rate in terms of the avoidance of the need for certain deleterious filters, and not least a better fit with your D/A. In a full DCS stack, as I have, you can try any combination of input and output rates you like and select what sounds best to you.

Fascinating -- thanks for the explanation.  Can you recommend a good book that covers these topics?

@cheeg no, not any book -- but Google is your friend, like this for example, a nice discussion and examples
https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/understanding-upsampling-interpolation.1447/

That's a good start -- I have never seen this topic described using visual analogies, and it is much easier to understand the concept that way.  Thanks again!