Sorry Mr. djones51
There are many articles on the web, claiming other. None is saint.
At the time your link has no test data, no evidence of people who tried it and reported of the difference in sound - I do.
Pleas try not to send me read long and none relevant articles.
The truth about low DF (20) is that it is mostly common in Tube amplifiers, Amps with output Transformer (like McIntosh). or old (70’s) SS amps. Yes, when the DF is that low, the speaker cable has no significance. But when it goes above 200, as most SS power amps do, it matters a lot. Exchanging a poor #14 or #12 cable with the right cable makes a significant difference.
Sorry Mr. b4icu but try again. Large guage cables have inductance problems. Normal sized cables between 10awg and 16awg are sufficient in most all cases. DF isn't that big a deal. Quit shilling nonsense.
I’d kindly asked not to refer me to web articles. There are so many out there, with different ideas. So what?
None are yours. It is your choice which one to addaped, and which one do reject. So it is for myself.
This idea here is mine. So as the articles won’t keep up the discussion, let’s leave it out from the beginning. Thanks.
For the inductance, if you read what DF is, and how it is calculated,
than you may see, it is ignoring the inductance and capacitance and use pure resistance values. Even though, if you look into a power amp’s schematic, you will find a few from both on the output stage!
The DF value, as so, is a pure number (just as dB) as it is the ratio between a constant 8 ohms (resistance, not impedance) and the internal Ro (output resistance) of the Amp. as so, the value (lets say 400) is a pure number. no values.
A thick cable comes assingles and not pairs, molded in a flat or round synthetic compound. You can drop the inductance. A #4 or #0 cables resistance is so low, that if there is any inductance, it is negligible.
On top of all said, did you ever gave it a try?
Because for those who did, it made a huge difference.
If you didn’t, why won’t you try it and then come back to the discussion.
That would make more sense.
What Amp has a DF of 3?
I assume it’s a tube amp. None of this discussion is applicable in that case. For a DF of 3, a phone line cable may do.
DF of 3 equals to Ro = 8/3 = 2.67 Ohms.
For a SS Amp’s DF as high as 200 (PASS Labs), Ro = 8/200 = 0.04 Ohms.
For a DF as high as 700 (Luxman), Ro = 8/700 = 0.01 Ohms.
For the last two, the cable’s resistance (in series and need to calculated twice (for the + and -)) is significant.
For 2.67 Ohms - Not much.
Amp with DF of 200 , 8/200 = .04 Ohm
1 ft, 0 awg copper cable has resistance of .0000983 Ohm/ft
Total drive resistance. .04 +.0000983 = .0400983 0hm/ft
1 ft ,10 awg copper cable resistance = .000998 Ohm/ft
Total drive resistance .04 + .00099= .040998 Ohm/ft
Difference between 10 awg and 0 awg is .040998 - .0400983 = .0008997 Ohm/ft
For 10 feet of cable + - ( .0008997 * 20 = .017 Ohms)
.017 Ohms = insignificant
The AWG STD : https://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm
Shows a ratio of 1:10 between a
#10 wire: 0.9989 Ohms / 1000 ft. and a
#0 wire: 0.0983 Ohms / 1000 ft. resistance.
There is an additional decimal zero there!
It makes no matter of how long is a cable, the ratio remains the same.
For a 10ft cable, that has two wires: a + and a -, ( = 20ft in total),
For a #10 it is 0.9989/1000*2*10 = 0.020 Ohms.
For a # 0 it is 0.0983/1000*2*10 = 0.002 Ohms.
Same ratio as with 1ft. or 1000 ft or any in between.
10 times lower resistance is significant for a DF of 700:
Ro = 8/700 = 0.011 Ohms.
Take a #10 cable of 10 ft long: 0.020 + 0.011 (DF) and you get a new DF of only 258! You Just lost 442 or 63%.
Just by using a thin cable, you gave up 63% of your investment, as far it regards to the DF quality. about the same in sonic quality too.
Those who tried, rather than argue, reported so.
Not all DF call for the same #AWG. For a DF of 200, #4 will do.
Not all amps and length call for a #0. It may go less, but also more!
Your link to Amazon is a good start. Some did it in 2018 and here is what they had reported:
Pass Lab 250.5 with Magnepan III's.
I replaced DIY 5 foot 16 AWG silver ladder line. Have previously used a variety of commercial Helix design, solid flat wire and braided multi-stranded wires insulated and in multiple sleeves. Alll 12 AWG, 5 to 8 foot length. Costs ranged from $400 to $2,000.
I purchased 25 feet of 0 AWG form a supplier on eBay for $45 ($12
shipping) and four brass (supposedly gold plated) battery connectors ($7.49).
The results are stunning.
The amount of undistorted energy filling the room, is jaw dropping.
I keep turning up the volume to levels that previously irritated my ears,
and experience no irritation. In the modified lyrics of B.B. King, “The
shrill is gone.” My wife is hearing new detail in cuts she has listened
to many times before.
My cables arrived today. They're beasts!
Amp: Classe CT-5300
New cable: 0 awg, 2.5 m (I was recommended at 4 awg but was told 0 would
More detailed, more transparent. Like another layer has been peeled back from what was, in my opinion, an already transparent system.
Either way, b4icu said he’d recommend a cable that would give me an
improvement. I tried it, it did. I don’t see the problem.
Mr. Wilson, who exchanged a Transparent Audio Laboratory 14 AWG 12 feet long cable, that costs about $250, with a 0 AWG 2.5m long cable:
Amp: Emotiva 250W/Ch.
Speakers: Vienna Acoustics Beethoven.
"My initial impressions: It’s like having new speakers. The sound is pure and clean. Minute details are suddenly apparent. The range is amazing. Highs, mid-tones and a new bass that I didn’t know my speakers were capable of. I wonder now what I need the new … subwoofer for!
It feels that for all these years my speakers were being chocked and suddenly they can breathe and have their full voice.
To say I’m happy about my new speaker cables is an understatement. I’m thrilled. Thank you for building these superbly engineered cables to unleash the full potential of my home sound system".
It improved the sound quality of my speakers (B&W 802N). Sounds are
clearer and less congested. Continued listening and swapping back and forth
reveals the same result. Others have said the same, including my wife.
Below is SAM’s DIY cables sound impression.
My room is quite big so I have an issue of insufficient bass. I recently added a pair of Rel 212se to pair with my Wilson Alexia driven by Passlabs 350.8 and I thought that it has made my day. I have top to bottom and the music flowed v nicely with the Kharma Grand Ref speaker cables. The 1st impression upon installation of the DIY cables was wow 😮 it sounded very musical. While the music sounded sweet with Kharma, the DIY cables sounded more realistic. Soundstage was equally wide and the overall music has more drive. Bass notes were drier and has better separation / weight. As lack of good bass was my issue, I was pleasantly surprised. The high extension seems to have lessened and sounded less sparkle, but sufficient and overall adequate. The mid's and vocals seems to have taken to be more backward staging. Therefore the presence of the mid's is where it is weak in. Overall, this set up sings and I feel that the flow of music is more realistic and enjoyable and the Kharma is now in the box.
Below is JOHN’s DIY cables sound impression.
I have been chasing for a better hifi system all the time. I have gone through numerous changes of preamps, amps, turntables/cartridges, phone amps, CD transports, DAC, interconnect cables and speaker cables over the many years in this hobby.
My present amps are Pass Labs 160.8 mono blocks (damping factor 200) driving Magico Q5 speakers with Ansuz Speakz C2 speaker cables. My 1st impression after installing the DIY 4AWG 2 meters length cables was the system sounded very pleasant and musical. Bass response was enhance and tighter and I noticed more excursion on the woofers motion. The soundstage was equally wide but with more body presentation. The high is a notch less which is good as it is less edgy especially on vocal. I am very happy with the new DIY cables that I decided to retired the Ansuz in the box.
Below is my DIY cables sound impression.
My interest in hifi date back to late 60s with Dual system. Bought JBL4315 speakers and Harman Kardon Citation 16 pre and power in 1970. I still have the Harman Kardon power amp in mint condition. Like John, I have gone through numerous changes in both equipments and cables in my hifi system over the years, trying to chase after that dream system.
Now I am using 4 Telos 600 mono blocks bi-amp to the Kharma Exquisite Ref 1 E Signature speakers with 2 pairs of Kharma Enigma Signature Loudspeaker cables for the last 10 years. My 1st impression of the DIY cables which cost less than USD100 was overwhelming. It sounded musical and not bright to the point of edginess especially on female vocal when I play loud to around 90dB region. Soundstage is wide with overall presentation very dynamic and full. Lost a wee notch on the sustain on the treble resulting in quicker decay of the high notes or less sparkle. However with the diamond tweeters of the Kharma, the extension of high is still more than adequate.
The best takeaway for me on the DIY cable is no edginess of vocal (hurting my ears) when I play loud. Like my friends, I retired the Kharma cables in the box which I have been using the last 10 years. I may try to parallel the Kharma with the DIY cables after spending some extended time with the DIY cables.
All our high-end cables are 2 metres in length with no spec on
the gauge or size of
So, instead of asking: which of two brands, or two prices or two colors of Speaker Cable do I need, you should ask how thick of a Speaker Cable do I need.
This is right out of Stereo Review circa 1970. Awful long time to still be fanning the flames for Julian Hirsch. Or are you just being thorough and decided to start your speaker cable research with articles from 50 years ago?
My guess is this is sincere, and genuinely oblivious of just how out of date this is: Half. A. Century.
You’re not adding the amp resistance.
DF 700 = 8/700= .0114 Ohm
0awg resistance = .000098 ft
10 awg resistance = .00099 ft
Total drive resistance 0 awg = .0114 +.000098 =.011498 ft
Total drive resistance 10 awg = .0114+ .00099= .01239 ft
Difference = 10 awg .01239 - 0 awg .011498 = .000892 ft
The difference between using 10 awg and 0 awg over a 10ft speaker wire
10*2 * .000892 = .017 Ohm
Learn how to figure what you’re supposed to be doing you’re not adding the amp resistance to the speaker wire resistance so your numbers are skewed. The DIFFERENCE is only a .017 Ohm for a 10ft speaker wire in other words INSIGNIFICANT.
Most cable resistance is fairly low enough that DF may not be that importance.
The problem comes in when the impedance of the speaker load increases toward 20KHz that damping factor could be a problem especially with tube amp. If so, the sound could sound harsh on the treble.
A speaker with high impedance at high frequency can use a Zobel network to flatten out the impedance so that it may work well with tubes which are more sensitive to speaker load vs. solid states.
I stand behind my calculations.
Rather than do a comparison of the difference (R #10 awg - R #0 awg),
Do R #10 awg / R #0 awg.
The ratio is 1:10
your DF 700 Ro is not correct: 8/700 = 0.0114 or 0.011 ohms, rounded.
It is significant.
Just read the sharing of those who tried it (if you have the time and the patient to read the thread of 2018:)
It's all there. People, that rather argue the numbers gave it a fair try.
The results are interesting: They claim that it makes a difference and a BIG one!
Which model of tara labs did you purchase? How much did you paid for it?
The Omega (#4 awg) or the The Grand Master Evolution ( $000 awg) ?
Your favorite brand is thinking that the thicker the better. So this is a good start.
They do not link the need of such thickness with length or DF, but it well related to the price.
My recent check (about 4 years ago) suggested a price of $32,000.- for the Omega, at my local dealer.
I made my friend a pair of #4 awg (PASS LAB 250.8) for material cost:
Less than US $75.-
Up’s that’s a bit cheaper than the Omega...Yes, it came without a fancy box, nor fishnet sleeve (-:.
I really don't think it makes a difference when he cleans the dust over the cables, once a while.
Now I’m into assemble a #0 awg, so he asked me to have it for a demo.
The material BOM is about to arrive till Aug. 5th.
Even though the calculation shows that #4 awg is enough, I would be happy to see if a #0 awg improve the already good sound he has (B&W 802D).
Tube Amp. have a low DF (less than 20) so the cables are insignificant in that case. Not at 20kHz nore any other Fr.
Above there is a guy who has an Amp. with a DF of 3 !!!
It is very significant when using a fine SS Amp. with higher DF's (above 200, up to 700 or 1000, before getting into D class with DF's of 2000 and above).
I’d kindly asked not to refer me to web articles. There are so many out there, with different ideas. So what?Wait a second: I'm not sure what you're saying. Are you claiming that because something is published online that it can be immediately discounted regardless of the source? Are you saying that footnoted claims are dismissible because they rely on others' research? Are you saying that the only valid opinion is one you have derived yourself, and that prior work by others can be dismissed simply because someone else did the research? I really don't get what your point is, other than that no claim can be true if it can be backed up, which is just sad.
No I am going to argue numbers because you're trying to sell cables using irrelevant numbers. What's relevant is the DIFFERENCE between one guage and the other using the amplifier resistance plus the wire resistance not the percentage of change in one wire over another without taking the DF into account. To be even more precise you should know the speakers impedance swing as well.
All the cables thing was absolutely free.
I provided the calculation, some advice and all the rest was done (DIY) by those who had the will to pioneer the idea.
As you can see, some sharing of their comments is attached...
If someone would ask for a cable, I might do it. Never did it for sale or money.
However, I did developed some methods, to include one to use the same product, for #0 awg, 2x #0 awg and 4x #0 awg.
I made one #4 awg and one #0 awg for friends, for the cost of materials and shipping. (one is local (Israel) so no shipping, one was in Vancouver BC, Canada).
Now I'm building a #0 awg (10ft. / 3m long) for domestic demo.
As you can see above, I’m not selling anything. I’m offering an idea for free. Mostly for a DIY project that cost below $100.- In this hobby it’s a small and insignificant amount that no other investment of $100 would do so much improvement to your sound quality.
For the calculations, sorry but you are wrong. It looks that you are determined to go against me, no matter what!
The speaker’s impedance is non relevant in this case. The Speaker Cables (even though they called so) are an extension of the Amp. and not of the load (speakers), when analyzed.
It can be a
Magi 1.6 or III, with 4 ohms and 86dB/w/m SPL efficiency (hard to drive) or a
Klipsch Forte-II with 8 ohms and 99dB/w/m SPL efficiency.
The same apply for both. It was checked and tested.
The same don't apply for both. Why bother with DF? Speakers don't have a flat 4 or 8 Ohms they can fall to 1 Ohm and jump to 30 Ohms. A 4 awg cable in home audio is not necessary and when figured with amplifer and speaker resistance is a fraction of resistance of the whole. Now perhaps if your speaker run is 50ft to subwoofers it might have an audible effect but normal 8 to 12 foot runs I'm not going to bother with a battery cable.
I used to be in the camp that wire is wire, I have learned through my own experience that this could not be farther from the truth. Speaker wire can have a large impact on SQ IMHO and I view speaker wire not so much as an extension of your amplifier, but more of an interface between Amp and Speaker. I have also learned that one not need to invest a major outlay of $ to get excellent results. Unless someone asks, I'm not going to bore readers of this with my long journey that resulted in my final "interface" with my speakers. The short answer is I ended up Bi-Wiring my speakers. My Speakers are two-way, each with a 15' run of #10 awg Belden 1313A going to the low frequency driver, and Audioquest Type 4 (#15.5awg) going to the high frequency driver. The results were excellent with this configuration and my total outlay ended up around $220 for two fifteen foot runs. I have read about many high-end Audiophile speaker cables, but there is no way I can justify spending over 5K on speaker wire, I just do not understand what I would be missing, I don't believe much! Thanks!
May I contribute my 2 cents to your happiness?
1. What Amp. do you use (more as what is it’s DF)?
2. Bi wire is a way to connect two relatively thinner wires instead of one thicker. On Spice (SW) analysis, the results of connecting one cable of #7 awg ( 0.4982 ohms / 1000 ft.) is equal to connecting two #10 awg, of the same length ( 0.9989 ohms / 1000 ft.).
The problem is, that it’s hard to find ready made #7 awg cables, but more common to find #10, #12 or #14 awg cables.
3). 15’ is a bit long for a speaker cable. As longer it gets, so is the resistance increase. So #10 awg with that length might be no so good of a cable.
Please pay attention, that I do not say a thing about prices.
A simple DIY project and cables + accessories, cost less than $100 can work for you. That’s way less than $220 or $5k!
I never thought that cable prices should be high.
It's getting a bit annoying...
If you are not going to bather with my idea, why do you keep nudging on endless errores issues?
Most Amp's on the market will not deal with a load as low as 1 ohm and will shut down. For most 8 ohms rated speakers, the impedance is between 3 ohms and 30 ohms.
Running 50' of speaker cable is not recommended.
Buy a long XLR cable and place the Amp. as close as possible to the speaker.
Most speaker cables out in the market, used by sound owner is about 10ft, give and take 2ft.
The best would be to use two monoblocks as close as possible to the speakers (even put them back to back and use very short jumpers. The distance between the power Amp's and the Pre. can use XLR balanced cables of extended length if required.
It is essential to lower the cable resistance and one good way doing so is shorten it. The other is getting it thick.
It's your choice which suits you.
The one that have an interest? Someone who is Making Speaker Cables, a Dealer, a Salesman?
They would benefit from that (If: " skeletons are better left in the closet").
You say: The Audio hobbyist should be treated as mushrooms:
Kept in the dark and feed with crap...
I say: let’s light Speaker Cables issue up, get some sense in it, and enjoy from a way better sound.
All have the right to know the truth and enjoy from it.
As for the skeletons:
Mom say: Johny, you can play with grandma, but when you are done, return her skeletons to the closet
What I really meant is that your previous, virtually identical, thread was long enough and, in the end, not useful enough to deserve repeating.
Most of the people who visited did learn that cable has to be too thick to be conveniently connected, has to be short, and that despite all the calculations you provide, it is always like that. Maybe you should dust that thread off by yourself and check what it came down to. An arm-thick cable and some, quite bizzare, methods how to connect it to equipment without damage.
Sorry, there were quite a few who made a cable and posted very positive replies. A #0 awg, is more like your thumb rather your arm. A #4 awg is way less.
Is that is your excuse? I hope you don't want to hear such a say: "its too thick to be conveniently connected", from your doctor before a surgery.
It is unaccepted. If so many pioneers could easily overcome that problem, all can. Bizzare? a thin cable, good for all, cost an arm and a leg, is Bizzare!
Some methods were offered, practiced and successfully implemented.
If that is your requirement, just say so.
I am using 15' of cable to each speaker. Right channel 15' and left channel 15'. As I mentioned, I am Bi-Wiring my speakers. Each speaker has a run of Belden 10awg 1313A speaker cable for the low frequency driver and Audioquest 15.5awg for the high frequency driver, again all of them are 15' in length.
For 15’ (4.57m ~ 5m), and for a DF 100 (106): a #4 awg cable is recommended.
The Bi wire of #10 awg (equals to 2x #10 awg in parallel) is:
1 ohms per 1000 ft, each so it equals* to 0.5 ohms for both.
But a #4 awg (as required has a resistance of 0.25 ohms!) So now you have only half of the recommended conductivity.
Bi wire never did the Job. It’s a good trick to make double the money over speaker cables :-)
but not good for anything. They invented a BS theory for it, most fall in.
An analysis with Spice simulation SW shows (used by all analog design engineers),
that the single 0.5 ohms (per 1000 ft) does a better job than two of 1 ohm in bi wiring.
Thats, because most of the current goes to the low Fr. (woofer) and only
a small portion to the High. So now, with the Bi wire, only 50% left for the low, while most of the current flows there. A single wire of 0.5 ohms would hold better that current, than a 1 ohms cable.
I would say, if you go for a #4 awg, drop the bi wire.