Not to try to be dismissive of the "disengagement" of A/S,as mentioned,it just makes no sense to me,to measure meaningful downforce,this way.The arm is tracking at 1.87 as the disc plays.This,with A/S engaged.If we were to disengage the A/S and adjust downforce,then re-engage A/S,we will, now, not really know the actual "record in motion" downforce.Right?I'm really NOT trying to be contradictory.It's just that the A/S "is" part of the "playing" aspect,and it seems that it should be engaged in the downforce cycle.This way,it's easy to have a repeatable setting,to adjust to,with a good guage.I HOPE!!!Truthfully,I know no-one who disengages A/S to set downforce,and then re-engages to play a disc,but I'm TRULY open to any new ideas here.I'm not emphatically positive of my own methods,but being lazy,I like my way better!!Hey,I have NONE of my inner sleeves marked for vta,but I know some who do.I wish my laziness didn't come into play here,as this is the mark of a REAL enthusiast.
My pal,who always had inconsistent settings,has always had drift,in his azimuth/downforce,due to lazyiness in setting with his "own" guage.He always relied on others to come over and check it for him.He also had a soft dustcover,that made continual contact with the arm,when at rest.WE've convinced him to get more actively involved in his own set-up parameters,and he has bought a hard dustcover,which is taken off during play(obviously).He,also,has the worst listening environment any of us have seen,regarding massive static,Rfi,and Emi.Just to touch a button,in the preamp has sent huge static charges into the system.Yes,we've seen a display of blown drivers,amp and pre problems,and continual hard dust build-up under the cartridge body,over the years.Fortunately,we have gotten a handle on this,and he's lucky to have spare "bucks"!!Thank goodness.It's an amazing tribute to technology,which has allowed him to quell much of this,over time!
Moral of story--try NOT to set up a high end system,on the 22nd story of a N.Y. highrise apt bldg,by yourself.
On a much lighter note(as in --WHITE OUT-- LIGHTER)DOUG,we may not be exactly on the same page regarding some analog issues,yet,and yet we have much more in common(as of this writing,11:43 PM),as WE are now COMMONLY being SOCKED,BIG TIME,with a seriously pain in the tush BLIZZARD.
Times like this,it's SO nice to be SNOWBOUND with a great system and fine music collection!!Excuse me,now,I've got to turn over my new SAX pressing of Oistrach doing the Brahms double cto.
What's that you say,Doug?You want me to refill my glass of cheap(but good) Shiraz,while my neighbors worry about cleaning off their driveways,tomorrow.I think I WILL go for a re-fill,and don't worry!I won't forget to call the snowplow guy(to do my driveway).'Cause it's gonna be a late nighter,for me.It's not often I can go to sleep with a smile.How about you?
Best regards,and here's a toast to all!!Sip,Sip. |
Sorry Bob,tried that,and don't agree(respectfully).It's clearly easy to hear the 1/100 gm differences in the set-ups that I'm privy to.The other pre changes you mention,don't impact the fact that the arm/cartridge "ZONE" is extremely important,based on what I've learned.Yet I'm NOT preaching anything to be set in stone.This is simply my own,and friends',observations.
As to the guage situation,here's my take--I've owned the Shure(totally unacceptable).The digital Cartridge Man guage was a pain to use properly,in that it needed a 24 hr charge,and was supposedly accurate for about 1/2 hr.Unacceptable for checking something out,on a whim,which I do often as I get new discs.Sometimes a new LP opens up a new door to checking certain parameters,at least to me,and I hated having to re-charge just to check this.My own set-up consists of a sort of "averaging" to a wide variety of LP's,in my collection.Wish I owned the LEGENDARY Air Tangent, remote/digital read out of vta,arm.I do think that this is the arm in GOD's system!
I bought the quite nice Digital One stylus force guage,from "Audio Parts",a year ago.Yet my pal got the same one,and it is .13 off from Sid's Winds guage(which I know to be accurate.He's had it checked).I never compared my Digi One to my friend's,but since his zero'd out to the supplied weight,as does mine,I see no reason mine is any different.
Also,since we've NEVER gotten such superb performance from my friend Ed's system(though he puts the emphasis on a recent shift from IC-70 to Venustas phono link),and the Winds was used EXTENSIVELY during the arm cable comparisons,and I was present,and active in the comparison(I was FANATICAL about the differences between 1.83/1.84/1.85/1.86/1.87)settings,all audible,as well as hyper fine tuning vta,and fluid during a 12 hr period,here.So my take,as well as Sid, was the fine increments of the "accurate to a fairthywell" Winds seemed to offer greater credibility than the actual cable differences.Hence,though I originally was interested in possibly changing to the Venustas,I'm now reasonably convinced that the Winds is the better investment,for me.
BTW-Dan--You can get about 100 bucks off on this guage,if you time it right.Like spring/summer!In my case I'm going in with a few other lunatics(like me),so I hope to get a fair market price.
Though any really good input on the NEW guage being marketed on the for sale area of Audiogon,would have the potential of putting the "Kibash" on a Winds purchase.It looks that good!I'll bet it's too good to be true,though!!Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. |
Though good points by Dan and Bob,the fact is that I want to enjoy my vinyl with the feeling of being as close to the "zone" as possible.No need to get as technical as Bob(though technically right).In our setting up(to max)my friend's arm/cartridge,we used the Winds guage,which is sensitive to 1/100's gm,as I've stated previously.We found the correct combo of vta/damping fluid(2.2 arm)and a reasonably close downforce,that we all agreed was in the "very close to ideal" zone.We did this over numerous listening sessions at my pal's home.
Dan,if you have a hard time differentiating between vta settings,I think something may be amiss!Any change of vta/downforce/fluid is clearly heard in my friend's set-up(as in my own).We settled in on 1.87 gms(for my friend)after zoning close to it,using all settings(1/100 gm increments)starting at the min recommendation,and ending at the max mfgr recommendation.We literally played around for an endless variety before settling in on the 1.87.
Here's how we settled,in finality.----My friend Sid is an extremely experienced audio buff/music maven(of the highest degree).We play a series of discs that we are familiar with,but Sid gets final approval of ultimate performance,as he has his own set of discs we also use.Fortunately he has actually been to some of these recording sessions,so when he states that Pavarotti's voice needs to be fleshed out a bit more (even though it seems fine to me),I adjust arm/cart to his ultimate preferrence.Truthfully the guy has the best sense of musical perception(as opposed to just great ears)that I've ever experienced!
When he likes the way voices sound,as well as complex orchestral tracking,we lock all in.We do use populr music too,but the hard stuff is complex orchestral music,as the cantilever "hates" to track this stuff!!This is how we wound up at 1.87.Which may not actually be 1.87,based on the technical input previously,but it's "THE 1.87" to us!
Now we have a benchmark that my pal can set his downforce to,with a good digital guage.Vta is locked,as is the fluid level,so unless environmental conditions change,alot,he's in good shape to finally get consistent vinyl sound.
I hope this makes sense,as nothing should be set in stone,but I want to simplify my own time involved in dialing in settings,and don't care if my 1.87 is not really 1.87 at some points of playback,as long as the quality of sound is good,and is repeatable at this particular designation.
I mean if we wanted to get really technical,we could argue the drift differences in "spirit levels".Which all vary,in the collection I've got.Who knows if we are actually perfectly parallel,on all planes.This makes an audible diff too!Just a thought,to ponder.
Best regards! |
I'm a bit surprised with you,Raul.I certainly agree with this current point,of yours(and understand Bob's as well).Yet it has always been you,who have been very techno oriented about getting the best results!Now you seem to have a "glossed over" approach,and emphasize "just enjoy the music"!What gives?Have you finally gone over to digital?
Nothing wrong there,btw.I have a nice CD player that's in use,now,as my COSMOS gets two of Sota's latest mods.
Believe me I DO get what you,and Bob are saying,and most of my own arm/cart voicings are set by ear,but I STILL check ultimate downforce,for a benchmark,after all is set.It gives a fairly reliable reference for set-up,which though not "absolute" is still better than not knowing,and only relying on ones ears.When it is only us,who basically only listen to our systems,if it goes off just a bit,it is hard to clearly identify when this happens.Since we get used to our particular sound.Usually a pal comes over,and mentions,to me,that I may want to recheck something.This is where a critical parameter like downforce can be simplified,after some prior work has been done.VTA stays locked,as well as damping fluid.I doubt my coils/cantilever "sag" as I believe you state,as my cartridge is fairly new.Also I have a dedicated room,with controlled humidity/temp.Fairly consistent parameters.Why would anyone not want a consistent downforce reading?I'm perplexed!
I find it hard to believe that all the mumbo jumbo with other factors is more pertinent than having a really good starting point.Assuming one has played around a bit,with a good variety of discs.What doesn't make sense here?Even Harry Pearson recommends the Winds guage,as do numerous people I know.I have finally had extensive experience with one,and now think it's indispensable.
I mean let's all take a look at our analog investment---Tables(big bucks)-arms(fairly big bucks-to the stratosphere)-cartridges(pricey,expensive)-even arm cable isn't cheap(if it's a seperate entity)!So to recommend an accurate digital guage for a few hundred bucks is to be "blown off" is silly,to me.
I get the impression that those who don't ascribe to this have either not really extensively utilized the better digital guages,and found how effective they can be.Or,Don't really want to bother,or have invested in something like the Shure,or older,and "once classic" Technics guage.Here some rationalization may have set in.
Believe me,I'm NOT trying to insinuate my feelings on this subject,as I regretably have in some past posts.My only criteria is to, maybe, relate how an important set-up parameter can be made easy,and repeatable!I'll say no more,after this.
It happens to be a very viable subject,and one that has made itself surprisingly impactful,to quite a few of my own friends,as well as me.I would LOVE to find a reason for keeping my own guage,but accuracy to 50/100's doesn't seem to be up to snuff in my own set-up.I hate the thought of spending anymore!
Please understand that this is only our opinion,in our systems.Nothing is set in stone.This is certainly not my old rants in defense of the "not perfect by a long shot" 2.2!I'm only relating input from extensive sessions that took place at some friends' homes.Others have their own way of doing things,and I'm fine with that.
As for the pricey Winds guage--I want one,but that cute newbie guage shown on Audiogon,that reads to four digits really has to be considered.Not that anything beyond 1/100 interests me.Who knows?I certainly don't!
Best regards! |
Bob,NO,they are not accurate enough!Though I would consider some "Early Pressing " Oistrach LP's on EMI.Maybe his "encore" disc? -:) |
Bob,if you have any Mercury SR series "promo" pressings,or Decca wide bands lying around,I'd consider doing your taxes as a barter!How about it? -:) |
One final thought.Any feedback is always welcome!Though it is very good to ultimately set by ear,and I do this alot during long listening sessions,isn't it a good idea to finalize our efforts by checking the downforce,after all is tuned?This way (even with some inevitable drift)we can zero in on ultimate parameters quickly.To me,if there is always going to be some slight drift,then it's a matter of easily resetting with a good guage.If this is NOT plausible,then I think I may have to give my CD player more consideration,as I'm not really into tweaking as much as many of you may think.Just food for thought! |
"Knowing exactly what weight sounds best can be useful"!!
This is really of paramount importance,IMO!!I have always gotten in "the range",with a decent digital guage,and tuned by ear.However it has become clear,at least to me,that once one sets azimuth/vta/damping(if needed)it is really easy to know exactly which downforce is the "maximum performance setting",though sometimes the room conditions can impact this,like is A/C on,and temperature/humidity etc).By having a really good digital guage(nothing less than accurate to 1/100 gm)and after experimentation with the various parameters mentioned,it takes only a few seconds to dial in the "Exact" downforce.BTW--As I'm sure it is well known,differences of a hundreth of a gram,or less,is clearly heard on a fine "rig"!
EX:--My pal,who has a pricey set-up,and a decent,but not "I'd bet my life it is spot on,in accuracy" digital guage has CONSTANTLY had problems in analog consistency.I've pulled out hairs (I'm bald-btw)wondering why I am always coaxed over(20 miles),to re-dial arm parameters,and bribed with chinese food,and wine.OFTEN!!I've endlessly played with all his arm/cart parameters,yet when my pal Sid brought over his Winds guage(accurate to 1/100 gm)we were able to get everything else to line up,and since the VTA is Locked in,as well as proper Damping fluid amount,the only thing he now does is place the Winds down,and dial 1.87 grams.We have tried so many different configurations that it's driven my nuts,but FINALLY we think we have this solved.
BTW--If the arm sees the anti-skate as it plays the record,I can't understand why one would not want to adjust downforce with it engaged.Believe me,if I'm wrong here,I'd love a plausable explanation,that might allow me to get better sound,by readjusting armforce,with the antiskate disengaged!
Best regards! |
