How much will you pay for an exotic cartridge....

Not everyone living in the world where $6000 cartridge is normal and $4000 is bargain. Even saving $2k you still have to pay another $4k just for the cartridge (this is madness). 

A lot of great cartridges cost 5-10 times cheaper and the difference between grey market sellers and official dealer is very little so it makes no sense to buy from grey market dealers trying to save $100. So for the reasonable priced cartridges (say $1k max) this problem is irrelevant. 

Some people created a lot of troubles accepting prices like $4000-6000 for a cartridges!

When your cartridge retail is $6000 you can save about $1k buying from grey market dealer, but the manufacturer will never swap your worn cartridge for the new one (or next model) for 60% of retail like they do for official buyers, they will send you back to the dealer. Both scenario is weird, once you bought it officially you're hooked and the manufacturer suck your money forever, when you bought it on the grey market cheaper your cartridge can be used until the stylus worn out or suspension collapsed and then it will be refurbished by some one else with different parts.    

In my opinion it's better to select and buy 6 different cartridges for the price of 1 for $6000.  
  

if you are one of those folks who are happy with the performance of their thirty year old cartridge and its veiled performance, then I can see how saving a lot of $$ is beneficial.

I am one of those guys on audiogon who actually compared some of the best NOS vintage cartridge to $3000-5000 NEW modern LOMC cartridges reviewers are raving about. I did the comparison tests in my own system, not at distributor’s system or his shop. And i paid for all my cartridges and purchased over 50 different samples, in my situation it wasn’t about saving money, more like a personal research.

Never in my life i would buy a $4000 cartridge again, the price has nothing to do with performance and i know it. This is nothing but marketing and someone already explained this strategy in the earlier posts on here. You’re perfectly explained how big is the distributors margin in modern high-end world.

The only way to find out what’s the best is to buy and compare, the only modern cartridge i’d like to keep is my Miyajima Kansui, the rest of my cartridges are all those rare vintage models (the best ever made, mainly MM and MI, but some of the best LOMC too .. all in perfect condition like new and fully original).

Dave, it was your previous post about your problem with the distributors and you start it again now. 

What's your problem? 

In the modern world dealerships has been more or less ruined by the internet sales.

And it’s not only about cartridges, many high-end shops closed here, because (for example) the cables they are selling for crazy prices can be easily purchased online from any country in the world much cheaper (i did that many times). Actually any small size equipment can be purchased online cheaper than in the local high-end stores (and i did that too).

I would ask why the manufacturer doesn’t want to sell direct to the customers wolrdwide ? Think about it! Seems strange, but who will pay for advertizing in your local magazines, on the internet sites etc ? The manufacturer ? Probably too much work for the manufacturer, they would like to have a dealer who will do the job to promote stuff in his country and his bonus is wholesale prices and full support from the manufacturer.

Some manufacturers prefer direct sale and it could be much better for the customers, right ? Nelson Pass has been making amps to sell them direct to his customers for many years, but now he has a distributors too. Why?

I believe the goal of dealerships for the customers is DEMO in their showroom and warranty that none of the grey market dealer will give to their customers. But after a DEMO anyone can simply buy the same cartridge online from another country (i am pretty sure this is what you gonna do if your distributor will give you a demo). Distribution is a tough job, you may not understand how much a distributor have to buy to became a distributor (or even an authorized dealer) and it’s responsibility too (to talk with a bunch of idiots every day, to those who never buy anything but only like to bla bla bla).

The Manufacturer never ever work with grey market dealers. Manufacturers hate grey market dealers, distributors hate them too, buyers prefer to pay less on their own risk (no warranty, no support from the manufacturer, some carts are not reparable, vendors does not have an access to the parts used in exotic cartridges, those parts made exclusively for the manufacturers). If you will broke such $8k cartridge you’re done with that, you can’t get it back to work, i mean to its original condition, because of those exotic parts.

I don’t know who is fool here? But the grey market dealer definitely got his profit and will not help to the buyer, because he does not work with manufacturer (cartridge designer). Distributor looks like a looser in this situation, but a proper distributor did all the job in your country to promote the brand he’s distributing, you don’t read reviews in German or in Polish if you are in USA.

You did not learn anything since your last post about cartridges. I wonder why are you willing to pay $8k for a cartridge if you can’t even afford the service program that official distributor always offering to support his customers ? If it’s too expensive for you why don’t you just buy a $1k cartridge to save $7k on it?

If you think you can safe $1k on price difference why don’t you just buy a ticket to Japan to buy directly in the country of origins ?

I think a manufacturer really need a distributor, first of all it is language barrier, a cultural difference etc.

Only grey market dealer can sell a cartridge and stop responding after he’s got the money, you’re lucky if paypal protect you.

I don’t blame people because their price is higher, i just buy what i can buy, first of all there are a lot of used cartridges on the market that are much cheaper even compared to the grey market dealers price, but they are purchased from authorized dealers (which is better).

And finally if you’re talking about Japanese cartridges i want to remind you that Japan is not USA or Europe, 99% of the deal in Japan are in CASH ONLY. They do not accept your American credit cards even in the bars. It is completely different system, different world! Did you ever notice that ? So you want to communicate with Japanese manufacturers ? Learn Japanese first!

Or continue to deal with Chinese grey market sellers if you like.


As far as i know rich people prefer to have top notch service and they are ready to pay extra for it. I think this is the best way to buy super expensive cartridges if you’re rich. Nothing wrong with that.

P.S. For poor people like me the best deals are always for used stuff in high-end community all over the world via internet. I would love to stay away from any cartridge that cost over $2k max and i will think twice before i will buy any of them. My experience with official distributor of the very expensive cartridges was very positive in a way they build a communication, they are treated you like the best friend, but the cost of the cartridge was over $4k even with discount they can offer privately. Anyway i much prefer to deal with people who can pick up a phone, immediately reply by email, ship your order before you even paid for it, offering you special deal or even can credit you for some time... this is all about  official distributor i've been dealing with. The grey market dealer hardly can speak english, completely different experience (never again). 

Why have two other parties (distributor/dealer) in the middle when you could work with one?

I wonder how can you work with one if they are in Japan and does not even prepared to sell to the foreigners directly? You can’t, so you need a grey market dealer (the enemy of the manufacturer) between you and the manufacturer or a legit dealer (a friend of the manufacturer) in your country. Up to you, but you can’t buy from the manufacturer even if you really want. This is it, the OP’s post is about Japanese cartridge.

They don’t need your USD in Japan, your paypal that ripping-off the sellers and can block entire account with funds because of the one complain from the cheater/customer, or your American Credit Card. Also most of them don’t even understand a word in English. How can you buy from them with warranty and service ? This is why they do have a distributor and dealer they can trust. Let's face it! 

Actually what’s your problem? My prior thread...not post, has nothing to do with this thread. Read my OP again, this time without your preconceived idea.

This thread and your previous thread have something in common.

It is obvious that for some reason you don’t like to buy this Japanese cartridge from the distributor in your area. But you can’t even tell us what cartridge do you mean, you told us it’s $8k cartridge. Do you think all distributors are the same (bad) ? This is why i’m asking what is your problem, because it is clearly your problem. Sometimes the problem is the customer, not the distributor. I’ve met great distributors as i said earlier.

I’m pretty sure any legit seller will do his best for the customer who willing to spend money, especially $8k on a cartridge. If you think the seller/dealer is not an expert, i think he is a business man anyway, i believe you can appreciate discount when you will tell him that grey market dealer can offer the same cartridge cheaper (but without any further support by the manufacturer for sure). Based on my own experience with US distributor (as a foreigner) i can confirm that discount even for $5k cartridge from the official distributor can be up to 20% and that’s god damn serious discount. Instead of dealing with grey market seller you (or anyone else) could communicate with the official distributor to get the best deal. Most of them can offer trade-in program to upgrade used cartridge purchased from them to a brand new next model with huge discount, grey market dealers can’t do that. This is another reason to deal with the official distributor, but for me it doesn’t really matter in which country if i can manage shipping address in the same country, because they can not ship to another country where the company have another distributor (it’s fair).

If your reference price is the price from grey market dealer i don’t think it’s fair, normally they are selling prolonged storage items or overstock, not the latest models.

The reference point is the retail price in various countries, if you can save 20-30% buyin’ it from grey market dealer (but you lose all the benefits for upgrade, service, support) then it’s probably not enough, but if you can save up to 50% then you play with the devil (on your own risk). Some buyers prefer to save 50% and rebuild their cartridges with people like SoundSmith (not the original designer, not the original parts, different sound as the result), some people prefer to insure themselves and to stay with original designer (via distributor) who can change or rebuild their cart to original specs.

In my opinion it’s so stupid to buy $8k cartridge to save 30-50% from the grey market dealer if you’re not sure this cartridge is the best and exactly what you need. And if you know it, then what’s the reason to deal with grey market seller who will never be able to send it to the manufacturer for service/upgrade/retip by original designer when it time to. And it’s even more stupidity to deal with grey market dealer when official distributor can privately offer same 30% discount and all the benefits for the future.

You’re talking about EXOTIC cartridges as i can see in your post.
Exotic cartridge = exotic parts, patented and exclusively made for the manufacturer only (imo).

I’m very confident the Japanese could deal with USA buyers direct. I do that with one manufacturer now and the service is impeccable.

This is fine, but it’s an exception. Also you can tell us what manufacturer dealing directly with you or it’s a top secret ? Do you mean they are selling cartridges directly or do you mean that you can ship something to Japan for expensive service like Ikeda tonearm for rewire for example. Regarding the cartridges i'm pretty sure direct deal is possible only if there is no official distributor in your area. For example i can deal with manufacturers in USA because they do not have a distributor in my country, but if they have their own distributor in my country it will be dishonest for them to deal with a private customer in the same country where they got distributor.   

I am just curious, how do you know the grey market sellers are Chinese?

2juki is the biggest grey market dealer on ebay, he’s from Hong Kong. You don’t know this ?

This is about the Etsuro Gold cartridge which is $21k USD retail through the USA dealer. It’s about $8500 USD less (retail pricing) through a legit Europe or Japan dealer for someone living in the US.

@vortrex

All Etsuro models manufactured by Excel Sound Inc.

This is your Etsuro Gold with $21k retail price in USA ?

A bit off-topic, but I will tell you more:

The current $8000 Excel Sound’s Etsuro Urushi MC looks very similar compared to the stylish and very rare Argent MC110 made in the 80’s in Japan for US market. They are both have unique sapphire base, similar specs and they came from the same manufacturer after all, just in different time. I have this Argent MC110 in my collection, one of the reason i prefer NOS vintage cartridges is the price, top of the line Argent DIAMOND (with Diamond cantilever) is no more than $3000 today, while the Etsuro Urushi is $8k and i am shocked that Etsuro Gold is $21k in USA.

The retail of Argent MC110 (the predecessor of Etsuro) from the same manufacturer in the mid 80’s was $385 in USA and Argent Diamond was $1200 in USA. Here is the document with prices and specs.

Hard to believe they can sell nearly the same cartridges, designed in the 80’s, but in better finishing for $21k in 2020.

Prices goes crazy nowadays in my opinion, not sure the quality goes up with the price, sorry.

After Mr.Fremer visited Excel Sound in they garage i was a bit disappointed, here is the video.

no secret, it’s Audio Tekne. I’m just making the point that it’s possible to buy direct from the Japanese without logistical issues. You will likely get far better service than any other dealer, which has been my experience. No PayPal, money is wired at a fixed low cost. English is not an issue. How do you think USA distributors are dealing with Japanese manufacturers? You think they can read and write Japanese?

Only if they do not have a distributor in USA, because if they have a distributor and still selling direct from Japan to USA then it’s dishonest to their own distributor. This is an exception, i can recall maybe 10 well known Japanese cartridge manufacturer that no one can buy from the manufacturer or even from the Japanese shops because they do not ship abroad. Someone at the company must speak English, but only to communicate with their distributor.

Also i remember @lewn comments after he returned from Japan, that retail price in Japanese shops for new High-End cartridges is the same or even higher than in USA. There is a tax in the Japanese shops on top of the retail price. 

@bukanova

Grey market dealer buys directly from manufacturer, this is part of game.

No, they don’t buy from the manufacturers as far as i know, do you know exactly what you mean, can you recall any brand?

I discussed it with the distributor of ZYX in USA for example, nobody know the source of carts grey market dealers offering, but serial numbers are fake on grey market items from juki and this is why it’s impossible to track down the source. Fake serial on the cartridge body and blank field in the manuals where must be a serial number. I know exactly what i’m talking about.

I’m pretty sure they can only buy privately from another dishonest distributors, not for the manufacturer, because the Japanese manufacturer never deal with grey market sellers in China.

A lot of fake coming from China, just because other things manufactured in China, but exotic high-end cartridges manufactured in Japan and it’s another culture, they can’t make 100 more cartridges illegally for grey market sales as Chinese can do with clothes and some cheap stuff.

@mmai

I know 2juki, but the OP never mentioned such seller in his posts.

So what? Someone asked and i mentioned the biggest grey market dealer who sell some cartridges with fake serial numbers, he replaced them on ZYX cartridges, these cartridges are very expensive and exotic. His price is cheaper, but a distributors will give the buyer much better service, great prices and will treat customers like best friends. SoraSound in USA, Chicago.

I can’t speak for all distributors, but with my personal experience with grey market dealers and official distributors i choose official distributors. As some of you guys here i was looking for a cartridges and noticed big price difference between official retail and ebay, it was long time ago and i did not understand why it was cheaper. Believe me, the official distributor can offer much more than a grey market dealer, i bought my next officially and i can tell you for sure that grey market seller does not have an access to the manufacturer (to the cartridge designer in Japan), but the distributor know him personally and can quickly solve any issues with the cartridge (this is a perfect service for the buyers).

However, when it comes to very expensive cartridges i'm fine to buy used cartridges from audiophiles who bought them from official distributors only (if it’s not a vintage cartridge), but definitely not from the grey market cheaters. 

Grey market dealers sells original cartridges, but the manufacturer identify them by serial numbers, so they remove serial numbers or replace serial number with fake numbers (if it’s possible), especially for an exotic cartridges that made in a small numbers like ZYX. Once the manufacturer can track down the source used by grey market dealer to buy his stuff they will shut down that source, because every cartridge with real serial number is fully trackable, manufacturer know exactly who bought it from him! Isn’t it so simple to understand or not ?

Once a buyer purchased a cartridge from the grey market dealer like juki on ebay they are ONLY protected by ebay and paypal if the cartridge is not working on the first try, once a brand new cartridge opened and used there is NO extended warranty at all (even manufacturer will not give you such warranty because cartridge has a wear factor and no one replace a cartridge for free, such warranty does not exist in this world), you can’t return a cartridge to grey market seller if it was used for some time and then stopped working or if the owner destroyed the cantilever by mistake. Anyone can return only defective units, but the defect must be recognized in a few weeks or so.

But ZYX owners can return their cartridge using trade-in program anytime they want to (only via distributor like SoraSound in Chicago for example) !

This is simply amazing bonus if the reason to buy some great cartridge is not to safe $1000 once, but to stay with great cartridge forever with ability to change/upgrade it forever, to build a good relations with the distributor, this is a clear benefit for those who can pay for expensive cartridges (and for those who know exactly what they are doing and why).

The problem, as i said earlier, is that exotic cartridges designed with exotic parts made for the manufacturer exclusively, just look at the ZYX Boron pipe cantilever (image made by myself) then try to find the same cantilever from any re-tippers, they don’t have such cantilevers at all, they can only offer Boron Ron with glued stylus, as you can see ZYX method is completely different and stylus is not glued, do you see any glue here? This is ZYX Airy 3, same cantilever on ZYX Premium 4D (owned both).

But another problem is that a ZYX has SEALED BODY and someone have to crack it if there is a problem with coil or if the cantilever must be replaced. In the end when it comes to a third party re-tipper it will be completely different cartridge, a Frankenstein that does not perform like the original one any part changed/replaced by some "smart" re-tipper.

ZYX like many other manufacturer does not bother with refurbishing or re-tipping, instead, they are giving to the customer a brand new cartridge with discount if the buyer purchased a cartridge with real serial number via official distributor only. Smart people buy from the manufacturer then trade-in for the next model by sending their used cartridge to the manufacturer. In this scenario they pay only difference between old and new model to get brand new model instead of the old model. Or they can stick to the old model, they will send it back when it’s worn and same model will be 40% cheaper, this is what a manufacturer can offer for their distributors only. End of the story.

Buying an exotic cartridge for $3-8000 to end up with SoundSmith retip is BS. Exotic cartridges are unique in everything, almost every part is unique and this is why some of them are so expensive.

Only people who does not understand anything about cartridge design can argue with it.

P.S.

Why i am talking about ZYX so often is because of my personal experience, it was the most expensive cartridges in my life, this is what i call exotic cartridges. I can not talk about different brands, but i think the situation with exotic cartridges is the same for most of the brands today.

The manufacturers are not idiots, they are giving very special options only to their distributors to support the system they like if they wish to sell worldwide only via distributors.


And they are always against the grey market dealers. Do you understand why ?