In my shop I have all dedicated 20 amp lines with $200 Furutech outlets, and quite frankly I find good power conditioning mandatory.
I use the Running Springs products and I find them to make a huge difference in my display systems.
Sound stage width is improved, image depth is improved, bass tightens up.
Audience are good, but it does depend on the model you used, the higher end units with the teflon caps are much better,
I have never liked the PS audio conditioners, or any other reqenerator.
When using a power conditioner they are very system dependent and you also must make sure the piece you use has been broken in and warmed up sufficiently.
If adding a good power conditioner is not audible it may also point to a lack of resolution, elsewhere or something which is causing you not to hear it.
Again from my experience the differences should be quite obvious. I have purchased close to $40,000.00 worth of power conditioners for my shop, and I did have to purchase them, if they did not work I wouldn't have bought them.
your inability to hear a difference must be due to using cheap outlets.... hah hah.. (inside joke for all you others wondering ??)
I started with a cheap conditioner and it did not make too much difference. Though it was obvious it was altering the sound, ust not all in 'nice' ways. Then a better one, now i use a Furman REF20i for all my componets except digital. For the digital i use a PS Audio P600 with the optional board which allows my to set it to output A/C power at 110hz instead of 60Hz.
Elizabeth, how can equipment designed for 60Hz function as intended when increased to 100 Hz? What voltage do you set your power at?
I used 2 dedicated circuits for my audio equipment and I think my power is just fine. I don't get the sense that I need more filtering or regeneration. In essence I agree with Taters on this one.
For Mechans: The power supply of equipment utilizes mostly the peak of the sinwave. the more peaks, the more energy can be utilized..(this is not a technical explanation.. ust a lay one.. so do not crucify me EE dudes..)
Generally equipment can use nearly any frequency sinewave coming in to the power supply. though lower than designed for waveform will tax the systems ability to function properly. Higher has Zero detrimental effects (to a point)
Only a few 'digital' power supplies seem bothered by using a higher than normal incoming A/C frequency.
I first 'discovered' this reading some article in Stereophile, and the author experimenting with a PS Audio variable output. Which made me decide to search for one (only a very few of any regenerators can alter the output frequency at will) I lucked out and bought one off Audiogon close enough to go pick up.
The PS Audio P600 and P1000 can do the change but only if they have an optional board inserted. Which is no longer available. (so for anyone wanting to find one to play with, make certain it already HAS the optional board installed It was mostly advertised so one could adjust the turntable speed.. Seems too many questions were floating around so the idea of altering the Hz in general seemed to get dropped in PS Audio info pretty quickly)
I experimented with various frequencies and tried 60, 70, 90, 100, 110, 120. (the range allowed is from 60 to 120Hz in one Hz steps) I like 110Hz best for my digital stuff.
The one item which I own that does NOT like the juice Hz upped is a Behringer DEQ2496. So I have that on the other conditioner. (as mentioned, digital power supplies do not respond well. though digital in this case is ""digital power supply"", not the same as an ordinary power supply for digital equipment (sorry if any confusion in that mix up in terms)
So I owe my discovery to accidentally reading the right article in Stereophile.
Same thing with my favorite tweak, of stuffing the digital electronics with antistatic foam. Which also came from a comment in a Stereophile article. The black antistatic foam, (isulated with card or plastic so it does not short out the works, placed over and around digital circuits inside the equipment). The foam, grounded to the chassis lowers the noise floor and cleans up the upper frequencies sound a bit. Curious NO ONE seems interested in this tweak. But I swear by it. It really helps.
If I find ANY home electronics dealer that would say opposite I'd be surprised.
Rectification of 100Hz is simplier than rectification of 60hz, so I'd assume that this equipment will improve performance. There are number of power supply designs that multiply wall frequency before rectification.
So I take it you like the running springs product over the Audience? Have you ever tried the Synergistic power cell or the Bybee?
If everyone's hearing was the same, then we wouldn't need 100 different brands of amps and a gazillion different speakers.
If you can't hear a difference, don't waste your money. We all have different thresholds for this stuff and then we weight it differently as well.
imo depends on your location & whether you're in an apartment/condo/multi-unit dwelling or detached single family home.
Agree with Pehare. The incoming power can be near perfect to a giant mess.. For a lot of different reasons..
So any advice or whatever is always going to be good for some and worthless for others with different situations.
Your experience mirrors my own.
Once I ran dedicated circuits, it really helped clean up the sound. The background noise floor was lower, and the bass response was tighter and deeper. Adding power conditioning really didn't do a whole lot more, IMHO.
My two cents worth anyway.
I use Audio Magic for my cdp and preamp. It's a wonderful addition combined with excellent power cords (I love mine..on all components) and dedicated lines for my digital and Porter outlets. Power conditionings is a mile long thread that has been on the 'gon many times. An expensive option to audition unless purchased used.
I had an Synergistic original Powercell and I preferred the Running Springs, but now they are in gen 3 so I really don't know.
I used Bybee power conditioning years ago, good, but not in the same league, Bybee bullets great but very expensive.
If you can't hear a difference, don't waste your money.
Bravo, excellent response.
Not sure i could listen to my system without conditioning. It's like a great car with great tyres. The same great car with worn tyres or just bad ones cannot handle in the same way.
I have dedicated lines with Oyaide power outlets. Some equipment is supplied by an audio magic Stealth xxx conditioner (also equipped with Oyaide outputs) and the rest is regenerated via PS audio with multi wave engaged.
To me conditioning and regeneration have slightly different sounds. Conditioning allows texture like a good tube, while regeneration drops noise floor even further and brings an element of SS to the sound. This allows for very pure sound with better definition, control and depth. If your system is at a level you owe it to yourself to investigate
I don't use any conditioning at all. I tried passive conditioning and it added a veil over the presentation so I took it out. I have dedicated lines with PS Audio Power Port Premier outlets and PS Audio Power cords.
Dedicated 20A lines here, one for each amp and one for front end gear. Electric enters the neighborhood through a transformer and then routes to the houses underground. I use an Isoclean 60A on the front end and amps directly into the wall. Everything sounds great. I had a BPT transformer based conditioner before, and couldn't really hear a difference after switching to the Isoclean, since there really wasn't any noise to begin with. I can hear sonic differences between power cords, but none of them sound "bad," just different from each other. In my system, the dedicated lines and the equipment's own power supplies seem to be getting the job done.
I agree with Audiooracle. I too have (2) 20A dedicated lines with fancy Oyaide outlets, but Running Springs power conditioners are awesome, the best I have heard, and I've heard quite a few. I didn't care for the Running Springs power cord though, put an Elrod EPS-3 Signature on a Jaco or Danielle and you are set!
That said, I haven't tried the newer, higher priced Running Springs power cords.
If you already have good clean power there is no need for a power conditioner. I have tried many power conditioners with the same results as Taters and Kurt_tank.
I have two 20 amp direct lines and upgraded outlets. My BPT 3.5 Signature is by far the best improvement and a must for me and my system with direct lines.
I use the BPT on my preamp and digital front end only, but the improvement is astounding. I live in a smaller Midwest town in a new house.....
Elizabeth, how can equipment designed for 60Hz function as intended when increased to 100 Hz?....
For Mechans: did you ever stop to think how an AC regenerator works? The 60Hz AC (let's consider USA AC power) from the wall outlet is usually passively filtered inside the AC regen just as it enters it. This filtered 60Hz AC is converted to DC using the traditional full-wave rectifier bridge network. So, you get ripple voltage (changes in generated DC voltage as the power supply filter capacitor charges & discharges) like shown in Fig 3 of this reference http://www.bristolwatch.com/ele/basic_ac_rectification.htm
This rectified & filtered DC (to reduce the ripple to a minimum) is fed into an oscillator board (this is the Multiwave PCB that Elizabeth is referring to). All electronics works on DC only & so does this Multiwave board. This oscillator board is designed to output a clean sinusoidal waveform that varies in voltage from 117V --> 120V & from 50Hz --> 110Hz). This clean sinusoid is supposed to represent the regenerated AC waveform that is then supplied to the AC outlets on the rear panel of the AC regenerator unit that your electronics connect to.
So, it is easy to see that the 60Hz AC power from the wall is not what is fed to your electronics. It's the pure sine wave of the oscillator board that is used instead. The AC power from the wall outlet is used to drive the electronics inside the AC regen. That is also why the quality of the AC power entering the AC regen matters - give it poor quality power & your regenerated AC sine wave could be crappy as well!
Also, it is easy to see (using Fig 3 of that above reference as a guide) that if you increased the frequency of AC from 60Hz to 110Hz, you would have less ripple amplitude (because the filter capacitor would have less time to discharge). If you supply lower ripple AC to your electronics, its performance is likely to be better. Ripple voltage has 120Hz & all its harmonics (240Hz, 360Hz, etc) that have nasty effects on sonic performance.
"Digital power supplies" (as Elizabeth calls them) are what we call SMPS (switch mode power supplies). They are the kind that are used in your computer except much more compact for audio electronics to fit into that slimmer/slicker chassis. SMPS have been around since the late 1960s/early 1970s. As technology has advanced so has their implementation to the point that they are very sophisticated & they are rampant in smartphones today.
SMPS are continuous-time, discrete-voltage, closed-loop AC/DC power systems that make use of a clocking signal. Thus, the harmonics of the regenerated AC signal can/will interact with the clock of the SMPS & that could have ill-effects on the sonic performance. It is very reasonable to think that the higher freq regenerated AC sine wave has higher energy content in its higher harmonics compared to the energy content in the higher harmonics of a lower frequency regenerated AC sine wave. And this interaction of the higher harmonics with the SMPS clock could be worsening the sonics....
Long answer to your question but I hope that it helps. FWIW.
Thanks Bombaywalla, for the great explanation.
Great explanation by ( Bombawalla ) . The differences in power conditions can vary greatly . Some improve the sound , some change the sound and some destroy the sound . What I look for is a conditioner that simply cleans up the sound ( lower noise floor ) .
I use different power conditioner's for my digital and analog components and none for my power amp's .
"The differences in power conditions can vary greatly . Some improve the sound , some change the sound and some destroy the sound . "
Practically, I think that is the bottom line.
Personally, I'd lean towards vendors that specialize in this type of equipment as opposed to offering it as a complement to a more varied product line. Furman is the one that comes to mind that I would tend to have the most trust in and that I might test the waters with someday.
Meanwhile, my $100 Monster Power strip that I applied a few years back made a positive difference in the sound and I have tweaked the sound since via other means to essential perfection currently for my tastes, so I am hesitant to muck with anything, including the power at this point. However, I truly believe that power tweaks are perhaps one of the trickiest to get a handle on. The best approach I can see is to go with something that appears overbuilt for your application and consider it to be an insurance policy at a minimum, a clear sonic enhancement at its best.
Also remember that most all signal processing circuits in gear do not see raw AC power as it would be measured at the outlet or end of the power cord. There are internal power transformers and other power source circuitry that may or may not in itself be designed well to optimize performance downstream even when source power has issues. Any "high end" gear worth its cost should do this to some degree by design IMHO. SO in that case, the value of power conditioning further upstream might be lessened accordingly.
all will depend upon the cleanilest of your power grid.
Consider your power very clean if your dedicated lines are performing at their best. IMO, based on your statements, you would not need any further power conditioning.
I went from an Audience aR6 conditioner to an aR6ts with amazing results. Just for giggles, I put a Shakti Stone on top of the aR6ts and just like that another veil was lifted. I now want to hear what an Audio Magic Disrupter would do... so if anyone has a large Audio Magic Disrupter theyÂd like to sell let me know.
You want to disrupt your audio magic? I don't know squat about that gadget but the name sure sounds scary! :-)
One Christmas eve night, it must have been when Christmas came on a Sunday, I was listening to my bedroom system, and noticed a distinct change. The music sounded so good I couldn't stop listening. No, I hadn't been smoking any "wacky weed", popped pills, or drank Scotch; I was stone cold sober. It was daylight when I stopped listening, and that was only because I fell asleep.
Think about it, if there is no traffic on your electrical grid, you have perfect AC, and there could not have been a quieter time on our electrical grid than Christmas eve, when Christmas came on a Sunday.
There are so many variations from one grid to another, that one size can not fit all.
I guess my ignorance made for some good postings. I am sure that I am not the only one to not fully understand or have long forgotten electrical properties. Some one has to ask the dumb questions I hope others got something from the answers as well! So thanks for all your answers but sorry if I threadjacked Taters question.
One might think that on xmas eve there would be more people home using there computers , micro waves , TV's etc , etc , makes no sense to me .
Clean power starts at the power station , which I don't think changes much .
Tmsorosk, the power station is the same everyday, it's the electrical grid you're on, and the activity on that grid that matters. This was on Christmas Eve night when all the little kiddies were sleeping and waiting for Santa. Home activity doesn't matter nearly as much as business activity in regard to your electrical grid. It's the commercial businesses on the grid that matter more than anything else. Those businesses were closed.
Now do you understand why the power was so much cleaner that night?