As I have stated in other Audiogon forums, the DAC1 is great value for money, so much so that I could not resist buying one even though it spends most of the time in its box. BUT is not unique in being great DAC value for money.
I own both the Lavry Blue and the DAC1 and like them both. Neither sound like a good tube DAC, but if tube DACs are not your cup of tea then the Blue and DAC1 come close to the best DACs around in a medium cost system. In a top class system however the difference between them and the best DACs is indeed significant. I prefer my USD1200 Lavry Blue over my DAC1. The Blue costs more and it has only XLR connectors, and no switching or volume control. But the sonic improvements are significant.
I agree with the comments that the DAC1 sounds relatively thin through the mids and upper bass, but it does so without introducing anything objectionable to the sound - and that is its trick. The result is a degree of clarity that is very engaging. It is not what I hear live, but it is very musical and sounds lively even when the recording is a bit flat. In that respect the DAC1 is coloured, but it does not offend one's musical sensibilities in any way. But switching to the Lavry the naturalness of the sound improves, images are more palpable, subtle details are more apparent, textures are more like live sounds, soundstage is larger, bass is fuller, dynamics are better, etc.
My main point is simply that the DAC1 is not unique in being great value for around a grand. Look at the Lavry Blue, the Stello, even the Mytek, perhaps the Audio Space. I am not telling you, don't get a DAC1, get a Lavry Blue - just that there are some other great value DACs you should listen to as well.
Despite my preference for the Blue over the DAC1, I hasten to add that I really like my DAC1. If I owned a DAC1 and then heard the Blue, I wonder if I would be bothered to make the change if it required me to take a loss on the DAC1 (unless the thinness of the DAC1 was creating a problem in my system, which it doesn't), simply because the DAC1 is so much fun to listen to.
I would also like to provide some balance to the reference to great reviews from audio engineers above. I follow pro audio and in everything I could find on the internet, whenever a pro audio guy compared the DAC1 with a Lavry Blue the Blue was preferred. Be careful of just accepting Benchmark's edited highlights of comments from the pro world. Benchmark is doing nothing unusual or shonky in its quotes, but do a little of your own research too. |
But that is not what I hear or what many others hear. You are entitled to John Atkinson's opinion DNE. I suggest you get your own opinion one day. Get a Lavry Gold and try it in your system then tell me it is equivalent to the DAC1. I would expect you to more likely find how laughable the 'equivalent' suggestion really is. The DAC1 is a great value DAC. That is why I could not resist buying one. But give us your opinion of its relative merits based on what you have actually listened to.
I am telling you that I own the DAC1 and the Lavry Blue and prefer the Lavry Blue in my system, and have found other similarly priced DACs that perform at a similar level. You have told me what you have read. Thanks - I can read too. I also read opinions from pro audio guys who almost without exception agree the Lavry Blue is superior to the DAC1. I also read opinions that the Lavry Gold and the DAC1 are not in the same ballpark. What I have done about it is heard each of them in my system, bought the two I could afford, and posted my findings here. Your response is that John Atkinson's words can be read as saying that the DAC1 is superior to the Lavry Blue, based on your selective editing of his various comments, and claim a QED?
By all means, accept John Atkinson's opinion over mine. I am here to share opinions and findings, not win some contest to prove who is right. Just don't tell me John Atkinson's opinion invalidates mine and proves me wrong. We could all just skip coming here and read Stereophile instead. With your reasoning John could select our purchases for us - he seems to have selected yours.
With your case irrefutably proven, I should now say to you 'DNE, I must be wrong after all. I say I prefer the Lavry Blue but there must be something wrong with my hearing. Because the selected words of John Atkinson do not lie. You have indeed bought a perfect DAC and I was wrong to ever cast any doubt on that based on my inadequate opinion. I will now box up my Lavry Blue and unbox my DAC1 and never listen to another DAC again - unless of course John Atkinson tells me to.' Sorry to disappoint, but I like my music too much. And find your QED to prove only one thing - and its got nothing to do with DACs. |
I can understand the seductiveness of being able to believe that something I have purchased is the best there is. What a comfortable and anxiety free place to be. I have no doubt I indulge in self-delusion as much as or more than anyone else. I just don't see why I should have to support another's self delusion, or why DNE or anyone else should require me to do so. It suggests I am either really selfish or am self sufficient in my own self delusion and intolerant of DNE's lack of self sufficiency. |
Yep Eastein. I prefer the DAC1, but if one needed a warmer smoother presentation I might plump for the Apogee. This is because the Apogee has less resolution (but read on) than the DAC1, but does not have the thinness of the DAC1 and is warmer/smoother. I can imagine how in some systems it could sound more natural. To me the DAC1 is so good at giving the outlines of the sound that in complex music it can be wonderful. In less complex music you don't hear into the subtle micro detail so well. It is there but that emphasis on the outlines takes over. Neither the Apogee or the Lavry Blue do that, so that you can hear more of the many sounds that say a plucked upright acoustic bass makes. With the DAC1 the driving propulsive beat of say an electric bass will stand out better in a complex piece of music, but a solo instrument will sound less like the real thing and more like a facsimile of it. These distinctions are not large so differences between systems and musical tastes will easily cause others to have a different view on this than me.
When I first heard the DAC1 do this I was somewhat startled and wondered what I was listening to - was it better or worse than I was used to - it was certainly different. In my view it was a greater emphasis on macro dynamics than on microdynamics and a touch more emphasis on the leading edge of sounds rather than the body and decay. Yet nothing of this diminished its musicality.
My view is the DAC1 is the product of a very skilled designer using an enormous amount of insight into DAC design to produce a 'flavoured' but high performing DAC using very cheap basic components. My guess is that the cheap as chips 5534 output ICs are the reason for the distinctive sound of the DAC1 as I recognise some of their characteristics from the days when I designed/manufactured/marketed a range of preamps. But I never got one to have the smooth sound that the DAC1 achieves - it is a real testament to the progress of design and the quality of cheap mass produced chips.
Just on the other point, I agree Gunbei and Nealhood, and thanks for your comments. We need to present our opinions as how the experience occurred to us. If we wish to add credibility to it by presenting supporting comments or facts then all the better, but it is pointless to use this place to try to prove one person's observation is right and the other's is wrong. They are both right unless one is a deliberate lie. The fact that the observations are different means that the observer or what was being observed, or some other variable was not identical - and why should we expect that they were identical and so only one observation can be right?
As you say Nealhood. We trade our opinions and observations and make our own judgements on the credibility or otherwise of another's post - but we do not need a public debate about that credibility and we will never prove anything by doing that. We each decide how much to use the opinions of others as an addition to our own experiences so that we can decide what to sell/buy/try/next, and each of us does that differently.
I see these forums as a place to give freely information that might help others, and receive the same thing freely. There is no transaction here and therefore no obligation to each other than to be truthful and civil. The gift of that information is best accepted for what it is, not against what you might prefer it to be. |
Sorry Eastein I was less than clear. My best way of defining it is this. In general terms of 'audiophile' quality I would but the DAC1 a step above the Apogee and the Lavry Blue a half step above the DAC1. However added to this the DAC1 diverges from how the live event sounds more than the other two. The way it does that is truthful to the music, and is not objectionable, but has a distinctive editorial factor to it that you may just love, or you may find not quite acceptable. When we say it is slightly thin we do not mean it is hard or edgy or grainy. In fact there is probably no surer bet in audio than saying you will not regret paying a grand for the DAC1 if you just go and do it. With all the hype it has got you will probably also find it easy to sell if you change your mind. I have yet to find someone that says they just plain don't like it. However there are some who have said they prefer the Apogee Mini, and it is usually because it is fuller and more natural. Which of them you would prefer is hard to tell. For me the choice at this price level is between the Lavry Blue and the DAC1. The Lavry Blue sounds very similar to the Apogee in terms of character, but is just plain better in all respects - at a higher price. The choice between the Lavry and the DAC1, or between the Apogee and the DAC1 will be also driven by the difference in character. |
To put it frankly, I think the interest is generated from the mystery that appears to have been orchestrated about this, and that it is beginning to smell a bit wiffy. If there is something to say, why not say it? |
What negativity DNE? I have stated over and over what a great DAC the DAC1 is, and fantastic value for money, and have even bought one. What you don't seem to be able to cope with at all is anything that implies the DAC1 is bettered by any other DAC in someone's system, or that the DAC1 is not the equivalent or better than any other DAC on the planet. Read my posts again and your last post becomes a 'doth protest too much, me thinks'. If you really wanted a balanced discussion about the DAC1, how come you are incapable of allowing posts where someone provides balance, without a childish response defending the perfection of your DAC? At least, from Uva hifi, we discover that your narrow-mindedness about others' honestly expressed opinions has company. |
My mistake was clearly to think you actually wanted a balanced discussion. Instead you obviously wanted a collective little 'w-word' without interruption. Most adolescents lock the door and do it in private. Otherwise they just look ridiculous.
To rectify my mistake I shall just tiptoe from the room and leave you boys to it. Enjoy! |
What planet are you on Uva? Where have I belittled the DAC1? By saying I prefer the Lavry Blue? When did I ever call the Lavry Blue the best? I can think of at least three DACs I have heard in my system that are better than the Lavry Blue. When have I said the Blue would be a better DAC for anyone else? You are simply making up stories. When I say the DAC1 is a great DAC, is that belittling it? When I say I bought one, is that belittling it? All I have done Uva is report what I have heard from these DACs in my system. I have not criticised what anyone has posted here about their experiences. Yet that is how small minded little twerps like you and DNE have reacted to my straightforward reporting of my experiences. From what I can tell, you guys are finding it unacceptable that I have pointed out that there are other DACs at around the same price that compete with the DAC1. What is it about such a suggestion that upsets you? Why do you feel so insulted when someone like me praises the DAC1 yet says he prefers a slightly more expensive DAC? I thought DNE a bit over the top - you have managed to top even him. |
Indeed! Well said Jayboard.
Let's get back to discussing what each of us hear, without petulant reprisals for failing to toe the party line. I was beginning to wonder if this was Audiogon or the Benchmark Evangelist Church.
One last time - I really really like the Benchmark. AND, I have heard DACs that I prefer to it, all of which cost more money. That is what I hear, and I do not claim it to mean anything more than that. If that is unacceptable here, then I will happily go elsewhere. |
DNE, our posts crossed.
The behaviour of both yourself and Uva in attacking my posts, where I did none of the things Uva accused me of, and where your post in reply on 26 January was about the most mindless set of arguments I have ever seen posted, in pursuit of proving the unprovable caused me to think you guys were a bunch of ...(expletive deleted)... Read my post of 25 January again and see if you can quote me in reasonable context to have done anything other than report my honest opinion based on what I have heard.
Yes I have slapped you two around for your inappropriate posts. You claim your post of 26 January was merely quoting a reviewer. Go read it again DNE - it was a ridiculous argument directed at me, whereupon I believed the best cause of action was to point out how ridiculous it was. That does not strike me as inappropriate.
What then ensued, was merely an escalation. My apology is to Audiogon for once again falling for being baited by unwarranted attackes from DNE and Uva. If anyone was upset by my derogatory references to DNE and Uva, then I do apologise.
As for DNE and Uva. Go read these posts again and tell me you believe I started this. I can't see that at all. If you cannot tolerate opinions about a product that are different from your opinions without attacking, then it is you who is posting inappropriately here. If you still cannot see how you started this, then lets just be grown ups and let it go. |
I will leave your post to speak for itself Uva.
That is very interesting Dne. I look forward to trying the adjustment with my DAC1. Rest assured that if it does what you say it will oust my Lavry, and I will be happy to report on that.
I tried a lot of permutations with the DAC1, including various combinations of internal and calibrated gain, and removing both switching and the volume control from the equation, and some certainly sounded better than others. So I am intrigued to hear about the one you are advocating. |
Dne, am I right in assuming that the 'adjustment' is one of the permutations of the settings discussed in the user manual, as opposed to involving an adjustment not discussed in the user manual? That is, the 'adjustment' is some combination of front toggle, back toggle, rear volume calibration, internal gain setting, internal bypass of input select, etc?
I can't quite see the mystery and reason for the secrecy, which in one email I have received on this implies a commercial motive behind the secrecy. Can you please clarify? |
Thanks for that. It makes a bit more sense now. Suitably configured, I don't find the Benchmark lacks liveliness, and it is already pretty smooth, but do agree that midrange palpability would be welcome, and more firmness to dynamics from the lower mids down would be very valuable. Depending how effective the improvements are that would leave its only flaw (to my ears and in my two systems) as low level inner detail/nuance. Although one hastens to add that I refer to a flaw only in the context of tough and more expensive competition.
For what it is worth, in playing around with configurations I found one seemingly paradoxical outcome. I tended to prefer the interior gain set to -30dB, and highish output calibration, whereas I had expected to find the 0dB gain and low output calibration to sound better. However I did not spend a lot of time with these permutations because I was really just trying to see if I could get it to outperform my Lavry, as opposed to spend lots of time optimising the Benchmark.
These days I just use the Benchmark as part of a portable high end system comprised of laptop, Wavelength, Benchmark, Sennheiser. Great travel to with. |
Seems I need to clarify my posts. I bought the Lavry for the stereo in my lounge. But I still liked the idea of the Benchmark and so bought one and use it when I travel. I live in New Zealand but right now I am in a hotel in London. I have with me a 200GB drive attached to my laptop, a Wavelength outboard audio card, the Benchmark and some headphones. It means I can travel and still have great sound. When I am at home the DAC1 stays in the box. It has come out two or three times for a week or so at a time to joust with the Lavry but the Lavry always wins in my system. Hope this explains my posts. I continue to believe the Benchmark is great value for money and am not trying to damn it with faint praise. I just prefer my Lavry and suggest anyone looking at a Benchmark try a few others at the same time. |
